Is Jackson Carman "Your" Starting LG

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2022, 02:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hell Green Bay had a 4th RD rookie starting at OG

Green Bay Packers right guard Royce Newman has played 646 snaps from scrimmage. That’s the third-most among all rookie offensive linemen.  There have been growing pains.

“I would say he’s inconsistent,” offensive line coach Adam Stenavich said after Wednesday’s practice.

Overall, of the 75 guards at that 175-snap threshold, Newman ranks 51st in PFF’s protection metric. That shows, just like players at every other position, it’s difficult to play consistently winning football as a rookie lineman, 

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2022, 02:51 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Can’t that was the word used to me. Didn’t ask for further elaboration. I’d assume he wasn’t pushed hard. Came in soft. Wasn’t tough. Wasn’t a hard worker. Dunno

I am pretty sure whoever said this had no idea what he was talking about.  But my question to you is "Why have a conversation with a person if you have no clue what they are talking about.

Clemson was arguably the top program in the entire country when Carman played.  He played quite a bit as a true freshman on a National Championship team and started every game as a sophomore earning All-ACC recognition for another team that made the Cham[pionship game.

How the hell would a guy who was "soft" and "not tough" and "not a hard worker" accomplish all of that.  I guess the other 20 O-linemen on Clemson's roster were babied even MORE than Carman, right?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-20-2022, 03:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Green Bay Packers right guard Royce Newman has played 646 snaps from scrimmage. That’s the third-most among all rookie offensive linemen.  There have been growing pains.

“I would say he’s inconsistent,” offensive line coach Adam Stenavich said after Wednesday’s practice.

Overall, of the 75 guards at that 175-snap threshold, Newman ranks 51st in PFF’s protection metric. That shows, just like players at every other position, it’s difficult to play consistently winning football as a rookie lineman, 

that's not what you stated originally, so just stop. 
Examples were given that refuted your comments, stop trying to move the chain.

Even you know that there is always exceptions

[*bfine32*]

(05-20-2022, 03:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Green Bay Packers right guard Royce Newman has played 646 snaps from scrimmage. That’s the third-most among all rookie offensive linemen.  There have been growing pains.

“I would say he’s inconsistent,” offensive line coach Adam Stenavich said after Wednesday’s practice.

Overall, of the 75 guards at that 175-snap threshold, Newman ranks 51st in PFF’s protection metric. That shows, just like players at every other position, it’s difficult to play consistently winning football as a rookie lineman, 

So you're going to have to make your point clear so that we can discuss it.

It started out that "If we have a 4th rounder starting on our Oline then we're in big trouble"

So i posted a list of teams (including 75% of the final 4 last year) that started 4th rounders or later as Rookies.

That didn't count

So I posted some more, 

Now those don't count because the 4th rounder didn't do well according to PFF. It doesn't matter that the team and oline did well. 

Of course it's difficult to play oline as a rookie; it's difficult to play in the NFL as a rookie. 

I'll just continue to dispute the assertion that if Volston wins the starting job, we're in big trouble. 

[*ochocincos*]

(05-20-2022, 02:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll never fault anyone for being too optimistic.

WTS, I hope Jackson wins the starting LG gig; he has the best pedigree of those contending. I will take exception when anyone says "We're in big trouble if Volson is starting". 

I do, but that's because I'm in software industry and involved with testing.
Whenever someone gives an "optimistic" timeline for when things will get done, it almost always goes well beyond timelines or requires things to get cut out of scope because too many issues are found.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-20-2022, 04:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am pretty sure whoever said this had no idea what he was talking about.  But my question to you is "Why have a conversation with a person if you have no clue what they are talking about.

Clemson was arguably the top program in the entire country when Carman played.  He played quite a bit as a true freshman on a National Championship team and started every game as a sophomore earning All-ACC recognition for another team that made the Cham[pionship game.

How the hell would a guy who was "soft" and "not tough" and "not a hard worker" accomplish all of that.  I guess the other 20 O-linemen on Clemson's roster were babied even MORE than Carman, right?

You got to read Fred. I said the term used was not elaborated on. I said the others as speculation what they meant. But 1,000,000 % this person knows. And the conversation with a blue ribbon source you don’t drill them

[*ochocincos*]

(05-20-2022, 04:18 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: that's not what you stated originally, so just stop. 
Examples were given that refuted your comments, stop trying to move the chain.

Even you know that there is always exceptions

I'm going to back Fred on this.
What he said was not exactly what he meant.
"We're in big trouble if Volson is starting" really meant that it's going to be risky gambling on Volson performing well if he starts as a rookie, based on past trends of 4th round OL.

[*jason*]

Some of you guys are being too hard on Jackson Carman.

Sincerely:
Andy Dalton

[*bfine32*]

(05-20-2022, 04:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm going to back Fred on this.
What he said was not exactly what he meant.
"We're in big trouble if Volson is starting" really meant that it's going to be risky gambling on Volson performing well if he starts as a rookie, based on past trends of 4th round OL.

Giving we go with what Fred meant as opposed to said. I gave 2 example as recent as last year of 2 of the better teams in the NFL (many considered THE 2 BEST) of GB and KC that started late round rookie interior olinemen.  

[KillerGoose]

(05-20-2022, 04:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I do, but that's because I'm in software industry and involved with testing.
Whenever someone gives an "optimistic" timeline for when things will get done, it almost always goes well beyond timelines or requires things to get cut out of scope because too many issues are found.

I'm in software as well (actually just moved away from Nashville). I think I am similar. I argue optimism and pessimism alike. I think there is an objectivity that needs to be found and I try to find it. 

[*ochocincos*]

(05-20-2022, 04:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Giving we go with what Fred meant as opposed to said. I gave 2 example as recent as last year of 2 of the better teams in the NFL (many considered THE 2 BEST) of GB and KC that started late round rookie interior olinemen.  

True, but how many late-round (Day 3) OL were taken last year?
*Note I'm going to list all OL because I don't know which OTs drafted were moved to OG by the teams.

Rd 4 (6):
James Hudson
Drew Dalman
Dan Moore
Josh Ball
D'Ante Smith
Royce Newman

Rd 5 (4):
Larry Borom
Jaylon Moore
Brenden Jaimes
Tommy Doyle

Rd 6 (7):
Trey Hill
Deonte Brown
William Sherman
Landon Young
Stone Forsythe
Cole Van Lanen
Trey Smith

Rd 7 (6):
Jimmy Morrissey
Larnel Coleman
Jack Anderson
Matt Farniok
Michal Menet
Will Fries
-------------------------
Total - 23

Out of 23, the following played 500+ snaps:
Trey Smith (1194)
Dan Moore (1079)
Royce Newman (1084)
Larry Borom (633)

Out of the above guys, here are how many had a PFF grade of 60+:
Trey Smith - 72.3
Larry Borom - 61.4

Only 17.4% of the drafted Day 3 OL played 500+ snaps as rookies.
Only 8.7% of the drafted Day 3 OL had a PFF grade of 60+ and played 500+ snaps.

None of the 4th rounders fit into that 60+ grade and 500+ snaps category.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-19-2022, 08:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Atkins was All Pro 3 times.

Pro Bowl 8 times.

Zero starts as a rookie.

I know, you conveniently left out the part where I said that to try and argue with me once again Fred.

This is when you get on my nerves, at least quote my entire post so it doesn't take things out of context.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-19-2022, 12:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: So the ONLY way that a 4th round rookie coming from the FCS doesn't get the starting LG job is due to politics?
Not because he might have a learning curve/adjustment going from FCS college to the NFL?

Most people feel that if there's a bona fide starter as a rookie, that player would go early in the draft.
Since you seem to be very adamant that Volson deserves that spot, do you feel he should have gone on Day 1 or early Day 2?
Wouldn't many draft analysts feel that way about Volson then to not project him as a Day 3 pick?

It's just his way to get InB4, with a qualifier that nullifies the "you were wrong". 

[Mike M (the other one)]

Volson is not your typical 20-21 yr old draft pick. Absolutely no one is saying he's going to come in and "light it up", but it's not the end of the world either (except for Carman maybe) if he starts. Do we want this to happen? No, I'd rather Carman come in and play at a competent level, but my confidence in him is low.

I'd prefer we sign a vet to cover that position, but doesn't seem the Bengals wish to go that route.

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2022, 04:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Giving we go with what Fred meant as opposed to said. I gave 2 example as recent as last year of 2 of the better teams in the NFL (many considered THE 2 BEST) of GB and KC that started late round rookie interior olinemen.  

You do not even understand the discussion we are having.

I never said that no 4th round pick could stat.  I just said it would be a problem if he did.  So when ou posted an example of  rookie 5ht round pick starting for Green Bay i posted proof that he was having problems.

Trey Smith is an outlier that does not belong in this conversation.  If we had a three time All-SEC player that we had taken in the 4th round then I would not be saying the same thing about him.  Try Smith is an absolute stud.  If he does not have health problems then he will be on of the nbiggest draft steals in recent history.

[KillerGoose]

(05-21-2022, 12:24 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Volson is not your typical 20-21 yr old draft pick. 

Correct, because he is 23.

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2022, 12:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You do not even understand the discussion we are having.

I never said that no 4th round pick could stat.  I just said it would be a problem if he did.  So when ou posted an example of  rookie 5ht round pick starting for Green Bay i posted proof that he was having problems.

Trey Smith is an outlier that does not belong in this conversation.  If we had a three time All-SEC player that we had taken in the 4th round then I would not be saying the same thing about him.  Try Smith is an absolute stud.  If he does not have health problems then he will be on of the nbiggest draft steals in recent history.

Unfortunately when you say "we" you mean you. Because you keep changing it.


And I posted the example of Green Bay not having a problem when they started a 4th rounder. So that's an example as recently as last year of a elite team starting a 4th RD rookie. Really not sure what else I can do at this point, but to say "you're right and move on. So.....

You're right 

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2022, 12:24 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Volson is not your typical 20-21 yr old draft pick. Absolutely no one is saying he's going to come in and "light it up", but it's not the end of the world either (except for Carman maybe) if he starts. Do we want this to happen? No, I'd rather Carman come in and play at a competent level, but my confidence in him is low.

I'd prefer we sign a vet to cover that position, but doesn't seem the Bengals wish to go that route.

Hell I'm not even saying I want CV to start; I want the 2nd rounder to live up to his draft status. I'm just saying that the team and an oline consisting of: Collins, Cappa, Karras, and Williams is not in trouble if we play a 4th rd rookie at LG. 

But apparently, that;s not what we're discussing...Don't ask me what we are discussing because it changes, but it damn sure ain't that. Maybe Ocho can tell us again what Fred means,,

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-21-2022, 01:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hell I'm not even saying I want CV to start; I want the 2nd rounder to live up to his draft status. I'm just saying that the team and an oline consisting of: Collins, Cappa, Karras, and Williams is not in trouble if we play a 4th rd rookie at LG. 

But apparently, that;s not what we're discussing...Don't ask me what we are discussing because it changes, but it damn sure ain't that. Maybe Ocho can tall us again what Fred means,,

[OSUfan]

No one is my LG until they have earned it. We have guys right now that have earned where they are either by performance here or elsewhere and those guys are Jonah Williams, La'el Collins, Ted Karras, and Alex Cappa. LG is the lone position that is waiting for someone to earn the job.

As of right now it would appear the competition will come down to Carman, Volson, Noel, and Brown with Volson and Carman having a leg up on the others.