Another safety with a new contract

[George Cantstandya]

(06-15-2022, 02:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Or maybe PFF is just complete bullshit at times.

Remember that they claimed 2018 Andy Dalton was better than 2015 Andy Dalton.

That's the thing about PFF.  When people agree with what they publish, greatest analytics ever.   When they don't agree PFF is complete BS , biased and flawed.   I really wish PFF would stop getting so much attention in discussions.  No one seems to consistently agree if they are accurate or flawed.  How they are viewed totally depends on the topic, the biased view the fans have, and what phase the moon is in it seems.    :)

I'll take KillerGoose analytics over PFF all day long.  :)

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2022, 03:12 PM)J24 Wrote: All the leaders of the team from Reader and Hilton to Burrow have pleaded with FO to sign him.

Listen closely to their language.  They are actually pleading with Bates to sign the deal.

They are hoping that "a deal gets done", and it takes two sides to make a deal.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-15-2022, 02:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't have any numbers to back this up, but Fitzpatrick seems to make more "splash" plays.

I don't think the necessarily means he is a better player, but I think he helps his reputation and contract value.

Yes. That was precisely my point on him.

He also led safeties in Tackles.

He's kind of used more like a LB than a centerfielder in the Steelers scheme.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2022, 03:16 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: That's the thing about PFF.  When people agree with what they publish, greatest analytics ever.   When they don't agree PFF is complete BS , biased and flawed.   I really wish PFF would stop getting so much attention in discussions.  No one seems to consistently agree if they are accurate or flawed.  How they are viewed totally depends on the topic, the biased view the fans have, and what phase the moon is in it seems.    :)

I'll take @KillerGoose analytics over PFF all day long.  :)

I agree.

With most of the skill positions there are enough production stats to argue about which players are better.  But it gets really sketchy with positions like O-line.  Fans will take it with a grain of salt if PFF has an established star QB/RB/WR rated a little lower than he deserves because they can judge those guys on production.  But if it is an O-lineman some people will treat PFF rankings like gospel.

In general I believe in the free market and that the real experts work in the NFL.  So I give a lot of weight to what players get paid.  Obviously still not 100% accurate but it makes more sense than putting all of my faith in PFF.

[J24]

(06-15-2022, 03:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Listen closely to their language.  They are actually pleading with Bates to sign the deal.

They are hoping that "a deal gets done", and it takes two sides to make a deal.

Playere want Players to get the max money they can get. Their not asking Bates to take a pay cut. 

You are right it does take two sides the deal but the Bengals have shown in the past that they are not willing to give major Guaranteed money.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-15-2022, 03:16 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: That's the thing about PFF.  When people agree with what they publish, greatest analytics ever.   When they don't agree PFF is complete BS , biased and flawed.   I really wish PFF would stop getting so much attention in discussions.  No one seems to consistently agree if they are accurate or flawed.  How they are viewed totally depends on the topic, the biased view the fans have, and what phase the moon is in it seems.    :)

I'll take KillerGoose analytics over PFF all day long.  :)

I think it's a fairly decent reference. What people don't seem to realize is that performance of players vary.

The Steelers had a pretty mediocre defense last year. Fitzpatrick made a lot of splash plays, but he does get beat too. So he rated around a 60.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2022, 03:23 PM)J24 Wrote: You are right it does take two sides the deal but the Bengals have shown in the past that they are not willing to give major Guaranteed money.

And lots of top free agents have shown that they are willing to sign with the Bengals without major guaranteed money.   

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2022, 03:23 PM)J24 Wrote: Playere want Players to get the max money they can get. Their not asking Bates to take a pay cut. 

Pretty sure the Bengals have never asked Bates to take a pay cut.

[J24]

(06-15-2022, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And lots of top free agents have shown that they are willing to sign with the Bengals without major guaranteed money.   

Who are talking about? Both Reader and Hendrickson  because  neither one of those guys were considered elite Free Agents at the time of  signing.  Or you talking about Dunlap and Atkins where  both were signed a year out before  they hit the free agent market.

(06-15-2022, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pretty sure the Bengals have never asked Bates to take a pay cut.

If the FO isn't willing to pay market value then yes they are asking Bates to take a paycut.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2022, 03:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Steelers had a pretty mediocre defense last year. Fitzpatrick made a lot of splash plays, but he does get beat too. So he rated around a 60.

The Steelers had a mediocre defense because they lost a lot of key players to injury. Two starting d-linemen missed almost all of the season (Tyson Alualu, Stephon Tuitt) and key players like T.J. Watt, Joe Haden, and Devin Bush also missed chunks of time.

I thin PFF raters sometimes get influenced by the overall success of the defense.  Fitzpatrick might have played just as well as ever last season but because the defense as a whole looked bad Minkah did nto get as many bonus points to boost his rating.

Just can't see an organization as good as the Stealers giving $18 million a year to a below average safety.  I'll take the judgement of a team with no losing seasons in 2 decades over some nobody working for PFF.

[Sled21]

It all comes down to which player they are paying for.... playoff Jessie or regualr season Jessie, because they are not the same player and not worth the same money.

[George Cantstandya]

(06-15-2022, 03:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think it's a fairly decent reference. What people don't seem to realize is that performance of players vary.

The Steelers had a pretty mediocre defense last year. Fitzpatrick made a lot of splash plays, but he does get beat too. So he rated around a 60.

I don't want to derail this much more on the topic.  I agree PFF can be an interesting  source.  My point is more on how the fans seem to perceive it.  I see it more often during the season.  "PFF rated [name here] this week with a [high grade]"  Responses, "Awesome I knew he was a good player."  

Then next week, "PFF rated [name here] with a [low grade]."   Responses, "PFF is BS and biased.  No one should take PFF seriously." 

It's the same sort of thing you often see with power rankings.   Bengals ranked higher, "Great ranking they know what the Bengals are capable of."   Bengals ranked lower than expected, "BS ranking the media is just biased against the Bengals."   :)
 
Anyway sorry for derailing.  I'll leave it at that.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2022, 03:52 PM)J24 Wrote: Who are talking about? Both Reader and Hendrickson  because  neither one of those guys were considered elite Free Agents at the time of  signing.  

Pretty sure they were rated as high as Bates.

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2022, 03:55 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: I don't want to derail this much more on the topic.  I agree PFF can be an interesting  source.  My point is more on how the fans seem to perceive it.  I see it more often during the season.  "PFF rated [name here] this week with a [high grade]"  Responses, "Awesome I knew he was a good player."  

Then next week, "PFF rated [name here] with a [low grade]."   Responses, "PFF is BS and biased.  No one should take PFF seriously." 

It's the same sort of thing you often see with power rankings.   Bengals ranked higher, "Great ranking they know what the Bengals are capable of."   Bengals ranked lower than expected, "BS ranking the media is just biased against the Bengals."   :)
 
Anyway sorry for derailing.  I'll leave it at that.

Yeah, I agree,  That definitely happens.

But PFF also has certain ratings that are based formulas using measurable stats.  I know I have cited those before to support a position and people called me a hypocrite.  I actually understand the value of the stats that PFF keeps track of and some of theri metrics based on measurable stats.  I just don't have any faith in their individual player ratings that are based on subjective ratings.

[Luvnit2]

(06-15-2022, 03:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is exactly how the franchise tag is supposed to work.  Keep the big star around for a year while you develop the guy you drafted to replace him.

Good teams lose good players.  They can't pay everyone.  We just aren't used to seeing much of that around here.

I agree with Fred, develop Hill and then in 2023 hope he is ready or sign a vet safety/draft a safety. Then wait to get a 3rd round pick for Bates in 2024.

I like Bates, but no way for 18 million and a lot of guaranteed money which has no shield for major injury to the club.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-15-2022, 03:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Steelers had a mediocre defense because they lost a lot of key players to injury. Two starting d-linemen missed almost all of the season (Tyson Alualu, Stephon Tuitt) and key players like T.J. Watt, Joe Haden, and Devin Bush also missed chunks of time.

I thin PFF raters sometimes get influenced by the overall success of the defense.  Fitzpatrick might have played just as well as ever last season but because the defense as a whole looked bad Minkah did nto get as many bonus points to boost his rating.

Just can't see an organization as good as the Stealers giving $18 million a year to a below average safety.  I'll take the judgement of a team with no losing seasons in 2 decades over some nobody working for PFF.

He led the team in tackles and had like the 9th highest total in franchise history.

Interestingly, his other seasons there he rated much higher.

He's definately not below average. I'd say above average to good defending on scheme and what you value.

They seem to value tackling and splash plays.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-15-2022, 04:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pretty sure they were rated as high as Bates.

Reader certainly was. He was considered one of the best NTs in the game. He's just not at a sexy position.

Hendrickson had a monster year and there was some concern that it was a fluke. But yes, he definately made free agent ranking lists pretty high.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-15-2022, 03:55 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: I don't want to derail this much more on the topic.  I agree PFF can be an interesting  source.  My point is more on how the fans seem to perceive it.  I see it more often during the season.  "PFF rated [name here] this week with a [high grade]"  Responses, "Awesome I knew he was a good player."  

Then next week, "PFF rated [name here] with a [low grade]."   Responses, "PFF is BS and biased.  No one should take PFF seriously." 

It's the same sort of thing you often see with power rankings.   Bengals ranked higher, "Great ranking they know what the Bengals are capable of."   Bengals ranked lower than expected, "BS ranking the media is just biased against the Bengals."   :)
 
Anyway sorry for derailing.  I'll leave it at that.

I think fans get it and Madden ratings confused.

Like performance generally varies. Bates is a great case study. Some games he's amazing. Others he's average.

He seems to want paid at the amazing level.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-15-2022, 04:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, I agree,  That definitely happens.

But PFF also has certain ratings that are based formulas using measurable stats.  I know I have cited those before to support a position and people called me a hypocrite.  I actually understand the value of the stats that PFF keeps track of and some of theri metrics based on measurable stats.  I just don't have any faith in their individual player ratings that are based on subjective ratings.

I feel like they rate RB low and DT high.

PFF loves Burrow. He's like the best qb according to them.

[CloeHokie]

Ooof. Well I did not think we would keep him anyway. You can't have the highest paid S when you will have one of the highest paid QBs/WRs. Honestly I would not want a top paid S. Rather pay other positions at that tier. Can't pay them all and S just isn't one of them