Threads from the Enemy-Tennessee

[Sevenfeet]

(11-22-2022, 02:39 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I mean he did come into a Bengals message board where no one asked for this. The Titans are the only team that I can remember posting and starting threads in JN. The same thing happened in the playoffs last year.

He should expect it to a degree...respectfully of course. 

For me personally, I find that it's more interesting to respectively debate with the opposing fans rather than constantly posting in the echo chamber of gotitans.com. Not that I'm not there....I am. But this can be better conversation. And I learn things about the opposing team that's fun to look out for when the game is played on Sunday.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-22-2022, 02:45 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: While the bolded is true, I would like to point out that Sevenfeet has been rather respectful and insighful.  I could understand Bengal fans being aggressive hosts if the person were here to troll, but it appears to me at least that he's here to engage in meaningful dialogue.

No doubt. I don't think anyone has taken it too far IMO. Just going back and forth.

[Big_Ern]

(11-22-2022, 02:40 PM)Sevenfeet Wrote: With all due respect, this guy is running away with that conversation.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3139477/patrick-mahomes

No doubt. But Joe is making the list as of late. 

[*michaelsean*]

(11-22-2022, 02:40 PM)Sevenfeet Wrote: With all due respect, this guy is running away with that conversation.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3139477/patrick-mahomes

Too late for him.  Ratbird fans gave it to Lamar after week two.

[Sevenfeet]

(11-22-2022, 02:47 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: No doubt. But Joe is making the list as of late. 

Agreed. And there is still a lot of football to be played this season.

[CJD]

(11-22-2022, 02:25 PM)Sevenfeet Wrote: I said "Right now".

Joe Burrow for 2022: 2890 yards passing, 22 TDs, 8 INTs, QBR 55.7


So Joe is slinging it around the yard but probably more takeaways than he would like (still pretty good though).

Ryan Tannehill for 2022: 1685 yards passing, 10 TDs, 4 INTs, QBR 53.1

Ryan Tannehill has missed two games and is in a run heavy offense (you'd be too if you had the King on your team, 1010 yards and 10 TDs so far). But we've also been decimated in quality people to throw the ball to. So the impressive stat here is only 4 INTs, considering he threw 3 in one game last year in the playoffs against .....The Bengals.

Bottom line is that both men are incredibly valuable to their respective teams. Burrow gets a hell of a lot of respect in these parts (it is SEC country).

Besides, debating is part of the fun of fandom. :)

I don't know what the formula for QBR is, but they seem to always underrate Joe Burrow. The numbers almost never line up. For example, Joe Burrow threw for 287 yards, 20 for 31, 64.5% Completion Pct., 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, 115.9 QB rating against Miami...but ESPN's confidential rating system gave him a 44.0 for that game. 

Comparatively, Ryan Tannehill went 19 for 36, 52.8% completion percentage, 255 yards, 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, 94.1 QB rating against Denver...and ESPN's confidential rating system handed him an 82.0.

Maybe they do some real time judgments like PFF where they say "well, Tannehill only completed half his passes, but the passes he did complete were in tight windows and were perfectly placed whereas Joe Burrow's targets were more wide open" or something like that but even then almost twice the score? Seems pretty hard to believe.

Last year, Joe Burrow was the highest rated QB in PFF (I think. Tom Brady may have jumped him in the final game cuz Joe didn't play in week 18, I don't recall). He had a QB rating of 108.3, which was 2nd in the league behind MVP Aaron Rodgers. Led the league in completion percentage and yards per attempt but, somehow, he only had a 60.2 QBR.

Notably worse QBs that had a higher QBR than Burrow last year:
Kyler Murray
Ryan Tannehill
Carson Wentz

Notably worse QBs that have a higher QBR than Burrow right now:
Jacoby Brissett
Lamar Jackson
Derek Carr
Daniel Jones
Marcus Mariota

With Jared Goff and Justin Fields just below Burrow.

At this point, I just completely disregard that stat. They won't tell us how it is created, what factors it takes into account and how players could raise or lower them for things not related to passing the ball.

It's not a good metric to judge anything by, as far as I can tell.

As for Burrow's interceptions, it's notable that 4 of his 8 interceptions (at least, off the top of my head. I don't recall the other 4 at the moment) have come off batted passes, 2 of which were just TJ Watt making absurd plays at the line of scrimmage. And 4 of the 8 total were in week 1 when he had not thrown a pass in a game since the Super Bowl and was coming off an emergency appendectomy that knocked him out of the entire Training Camp and had him lose over 20 pounds in a month. He obviously wasn't right for those first 2 games, but he slowly regained his health and is playing at what would be an MVP level right now if Patrick Mahomes wasn't just...a football God, essentially.

I don't say any of this to demean the Titans or Ryan Tannehill. You're a Titans fan so you have probably only seen the Bengals play once or twice this year. Trust me when I tell you, Burrow is way better than Tannehill. They aren't on the same level. Not now, and not in the future either.

And that's okay. Tannehill is filling his role in Tennessee very well. But you're going to lose a lot of credibility on a Bengals forum and, honestly, on any non-Titans forum if you continue to claim they are playing comparably right now.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-22-2022, 11:21 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Their fan base is lame as hell. They don't care. 

I went to the playoff game in Nashville and I've been to a number of Titans games. Lamest fans in the NFL (behind Vegas). Just zero passion.

Burrow is going to pick them the hell apart. They are one of the worst pass defenses in the league and this aint the same OL we had last year in the playoffs.

They have played a bunch of trash teams and have beat up on a trash division. Barely beat the Broncos, Texans, and Raiders. I'm actually more confident in this game than I was with the Pitt game.

Maybe I was around more passionate fans than you, but I definitely heard some Titans fell tell Bengals fans to STFU.

As to the Titans pass defense, they do give up a lot of yards in the air, but they also have a really good pass rush.
Autry, Dupree, Simmons, Weaver, Walker, and Edwards. Walker has been getting a handful of sacks every year for the past few years now with DEN, HOU, and now TEN. Weaver didn't really do anything his rookie year but is already up to 5.5 sacks this year.
So they will be after the QB from about every single position.

If the Bengals can keep all those guys at bay and give Burrow a few seconds to throw, they might be able to carve them up. But let's not act like the Bengals pass protection is stellar this year. It's still below expectations. Bengals won't have an easy time with that pass rush. Not to mention TEN's run defense is elite, so it can be expected the running game will struggle and the Titans will pin their ears back quite a bit.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-22-2022, 03:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Maybe I was around more passionate fans than you, but I definitely heard some Titans fell tell Bengals fans to STFU.

As to the Titans pass defense, they do give up a lot of yards in the air, but they also have a really good pass rush.
Autry, Dupree, Simmons, Weaver, Walker, and Edwards. Walker has been getting a handful of sacks every year for the past few years now with DEN, HOU, and now TEN. Weaver didn't really do anything his rookie year but is already up to 5.5 sacks this year.
So they will be after the QB from about every single position.

If the Bengals can keep all those guys at bay and give Burrow a few seconds to throw, they might be able to carve them up. But let's not act like the Bengals pass protection is stellar this year. It's still below expectations. Bengals won't have an easy time with that pass rush. Not to mention TEN's run defense is elite, so it can be expected the running game will struggle and the Titans will pin their ears back quite a bit.

Their pass rush will definetly be a problem - I 100% agree with that. 

I don't think they will have 9 sacks and I do think our OL is better than it was in the playoffs last year. That's all I'm saying. 

[*ochocincos*]

(11-22-2022, 03:24 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Their pass rush will definetly be a problem - I 100% agree with that. 

I don't think they will have 9 sacks and I do think our OL is better than it was in the playoffs last year. That's all I'm saying. 

I don't think they will get to 9, but I could see up to 5 personally.
And this year the Bengals have a fully healthy and conditioned Derrick Henry to worry about, not the fresh-off-IR Henry that missed two months prior.
If the Bengals win, I think it will be within 1 score.

[pdub2005]

(11-22-2022, 11:55 AM)Sevenfeet Wrote: I’m sure a few of us care.

One of my best friends is a Cinci native (no longer lives there but his parents and sister are there). We have a friendly rivalry about our teams and I’m happy that he doesn’t have to refer to the team as “The Bungles” since the advent of Joe Burrow.

The Titans defense has kept us in every game save the blowout in the Buffalo game which turned into a team gut check by all reported accounts in this market. Maybe we needed that. We should have won the Giants game and lost by a missed field goal as time expired. And the third loss was to Mahomes in OT. Breaks the heart when that guy starts playing like the hall of famer he’s going to be.

Our problem is the offense (save Derrick Henry) but last game against the Packers may have turned a corner on that.  We’ll see.

I am a huge King Henry fan, but the last two weeks his ground game has left something to be desired. He does seem to be coming along in his receiving, and for some reason he threw for a couple of passes and a TD last week lol.

[RegularGuy22]

Hey there, Sevenfeet, it's refreshing to see an opponents fan come in here and show some brains and common sense and be able to chat with members here without the usual mud slinging and insults. It's a flucking game, that all. Why some fans from any team act like their very life depended on 'their" team winning or not. Earlier this year after Bengals-Dolphins game there were "fans" on their forums that were mad as hell that a Miami Dolphin thug didn't return the injury to Burrow that Tua suffered. Childish immaturity at the highest level. I really wonder about the IQ level and brain function of some of these people.

As far as this game I look at it as a 50/50 chance of a Bengals win as I always do. When they are on, they can beat anybody but when they are off they look like misfits and embarrassing. (See Browns Game on MNF). When the Bengals win a few games the local media is all gushing over them only to see them forget to show up the next week. That's why... I always have a conservative thought about any game they play. Any team on the schedule is dangerous, I don't care their record. Vikings were rolling along playing well hitting on all 8 and look what Dallas did to them Sunday.

[Joelist]

(11-22-2022, 03:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't know what the formula for QBR is, but they seem to always underrate Joe Burrow. The numbers almost never line up. For example, Joe Burrow threw for 287 yards, 20 for 31, 64.5% Completion Pct., 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, 115.9 QB rating against Miami...but ESPN's confidential rating system gave him a 44.0 for that game. 

Comparatively, Ryan Tannehill went 19 for 36, 52.8% completion percentage, 255 yards, 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, 94.1 QB rating against Denver...and ESPN's confidential rating system handed him an 82.0.

Maybe they do some real time judgments like PFF where they say "well, Tannehill only completed half his passes, but the passes he did complete were in tight windows and were perfectly placed whereas Joe Burrow's targets were more wide open" or something like that but even then almost twice the score? Seems pretty hard to believe.

Last year, Joe Burrow was the highest rated QB in PFF (I think. Tom Brady may have jumped him in the final game cuz Joe didn't play in week 18, I don't recall). He had a QB rating of 108.3, which was 2nd in the league behind MVP Aaron Rodgers. Led the league in completion percentage and yards per attempt but, somehow, he only had a 60.2 QBR.

Notably worse QBs that had a higher QBR than Burrow last year:
Kyler Murray
Ryan Tannehill
Carson Wentz

Notably worse QBs that have a higher QBR than Burrow right now:
Jacoby Brissett
Lamar Jackson
Derek Carr
Daniel Jones
Marcus Mariota

With Jared Goff and Justin Fields just below Burrow.

At this point, I just completely disregard that stat. They won't tell us how it is created, what factors it takes into account and how players could raise or lower them for things not related to passing the ball.

It's not a good metric to judge anything by, as far as I can tell.

As for Burrow's interceptions, it's notable that 4 of his 8 interceptions (at least, off the top of my head. I don't recall the other 4 at the moment) have come off batted passes, 2 of which were just TJ Watt making absurd plays at the line of scrimmage. And 4 of the 8 total were in week 1 when he had not thrown a pass in a game since the Super Bowl and was coming off an emergency appendectomy that knocked him out of the entire Training Camp and had him lose over 20 pounds in a month. He obviously wasn't right for those first 2 games, but he slowly regained his health and is playing at what would be an MVP level right now if Patrick Mahomes wasn't just...a football God, essentially.

I don't say any of this to demean the Titans or Ryan Tannehill. You're a Titans fan so you have probably only seen the Bengals play once or twice this year. Trust me when I tell you, Burrow is way better than Tannehill. They aren't on the same level. Not now, and not in the future either.

And that's okay. Tannehill is filling his role in Tennessee very well. But you're going to lose a lot of credibility on a Bengals forum and, honestly, on any non-Titans forum if you continue to claim they are playing comparably right now.

QBR is a joke and always has been. It's the butt of jokes in a lot of football places and indeed with a lot of analysts. here's some QBR goodness:

Drew Brees 

26/36 332 5 tds 0 ints 146 passer Rating, but ESPN has a 70 QBR 
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331027018 


Terrelle Pryor 
10/19 88 yards 0 tds 2 ints 9 carries 105 yards 1 td 
25 Passer Rating, but 96.2 QBR 
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331027013 


And just two articles about the joke that is QBR - a synthetic stat with mystery sauce from ESPN meant to promote ESPN.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/10/espns-qbr-ranks-ryan-fitzpatrick-ahead-of-tom-brady/



https://awfulannouncing.com/2011-articles/espns-new-qbr-stat-isnt-perfect-after-all.html

[KillerGoose]

(11-22-2022, 03:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't know what the formula for QBR is, but they seem to always underrate Joe Burrow. The numbers almost never line up. For example, Joe Burrow threw for 287 yards, 20 for 31, 64.5% Completion Pct., 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, 115.9 QB rating against Miami...but ESPN's confidential rating system gave him a 44.0 for that game. 

Comparatively, Ryan Tannehill went 19 for 36, 52.8% completion percentage, 255 yards, 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, 94.1 QB rating against Denver...and ESPN's confidential rating system handed him an 82.0.

Maybe they do some real time judgments like PFF where they say "well, Tannehill only completed half his passes, but the passes he did complete were in tight windows and were perfectly placed whereas Joe Burrow's targets were more wide open" or something like that but even then almost twice the score? Seems pretty hard to believe.

Last year, Joe Burrow was the highest rated QB in PFF (I think. Tom Brady may have jumped him in the final game cuz Joe didn't play in week 18, I don't recall). He had a QB rating of 108.3, which was 2nd in the league behind MVP Aaron Rodgers. Led the league in completion percentage and yards per attempt but, somehow, he only had a 60.2 QBR.

Notably worse QBs that had a higher QBR than Burrow last year:
Kyler Murray
Ryan Tannehill
Carson Wentz

Notably worse QBs that have a higher QBR than Burrow right now:
Jacoby Brissett
Lamar Jackson
Derek Carr
Daniel Jones
Marcus Mariota

With Jared Goff and Justin Fields just below Burrow.

At this point, I just completely disregard that stat. They won't tell us how it is created, what factors it takes into account and how players could raise or lower them for things not related to passing the ball.

It's not a good metric to judge anything by, as far as I can tell.

As for Burrow's interceptions, it's notable that 4 of his 8 interceptions (at least, off the top of my head. I don't recall the other 4 at the moment) have come off batted passes, 2 of which were just TJ Watt making absurd plays at the line of scrimmage. And 4 of the 8 total were in week 1 when he had not thrown a pass in a game since the Super Bowl and was coming off an emergency appendectomy that knocked him out of the entire Training Camp and had him lose over 20 pounds in a month. He obviously wasn't right for those first 2 games, but he slowly regained his health and is playing at what would be an MVP level right now if Patrick Mahomes wasn't just...a football God, essentially.

I don't say any of this to demean the Titans or Ryan Tannehill. You're a Titans fan so you have probably only seen the Bengals play once or twice this year. Trust me when I tell you, Burrow is way better than Tannehill. They aren't on the same level. Not now, and not in the future either.

And that's okay. Tannehill is filling his role in Tennessee very well. But you're going to lose a lot of credibility on a Bengals forum and, honestly, on any non-Titans forum if you continue to claim they are playing comparably right now.

Yeah, QBR is pretty useless in my opinion. I think it is some kind of black box EPA number but I am not 100% certain. It sucks. For instance Cooper Rush has a higher QBR than Burrow does. As a matter of fact, Cooper Rush has the 7th highest QBR in the league. The fact that Seven is having to pull out QBR to even debate the two QBs should be pretty telling. From an EPA perspective, Burrow is currently 6th in EPA per pass attempt while Tannehill is 16th. Passer rating is a bit more interesting as Burrow is 6th and Tannehill is 7th, but the difference between Burrow and Tannehill is the same as Tannehill and Jared Goff, who is 12th. 

Tannehill is talented, but he isn't the QB that Burrow is. 

[Frank Booth]

you should stub your toe if you reference QBR

[Nepa]

(11-22-2022, 06:40 PM)Joelist Wrote: QBR is a joke and always has been. It's the butt of jokes in a lot of football places and indeed with a lot of analysts. here's some QBR goodness:

Drew Brees 

26/36 332 5 tds 0 ints 146 passer Rating, but ESPN has a 70 QBR 
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331027018 


Terrelle Pryor 
10/19 88 yards 0 tds 2 ints 9 carries 105 yards 1 td 
25 Passer Rating, but 96.2 QBR 
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331027013 


And just two articles about the joke that is QBR - a synthetic stat with mystery sauce from ESPN meant to promote ESPN.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/10/espns-qbr-ranks-ryan-fitzpatrick-ahead-of-tom-brady/



https://awfulannouncing.com/2011-articles/espns-new-qbr-stat-isnt-perfect-after-all.html

Good post. The Brees/Pryor comparison for QBR is stunning. 

[*ochocincos*]

(11-22-2022, 11:13 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Poor babies.  Tell your crap fans to not sell their tickets.  And every fanbase at an away game is going to do that.  Well they won't be saying who Dey.  I've heard Here we go Steelers and Here we go Brownies more times than I care to remember.

I would imagine there's quite a bit of people who purchase tickets with no intention to ever attend the event. They just buy to resell at a higher value to make $$

[*Awful Llama*]

(11-22-2022, 02:39 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I mean he did come into a Bengals message board where no one asked for this. The Titans are the only team that I can remember posting and starting threads in JN. The same thing happened in the playoffs last year.

He should expect it to a degree...respectfully of course. 

On the mothership we always seemed to have trouble with Texans fans, especially during the seasons we faced them in the playoffs.  They were the worst and downright obnoxious.

For clarity perhaps Jungle Noise should read "For Bengals fans only, or for any fans of teams not the Steelers, Browns or Ravens, provided you're not a *****."

[Sevenfeet]

(11-22-2022, 03:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't know what the formula for QBR is, but they seem to always underrate Joe Burrow. The numbers almost never line up. For example, Joe Burrow threw for 287 yards, 20 for 31, 64.5% Completion Pct., 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, 115.9 QB rating against Miami...but ESPN's confidential rating system gave him a 44.0 for that game. 

Comparatively, Ryan Tannehill went 19 for 36, 52.8% completion percentage, 255 yards, 2 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, 94.1 QB rating against Denver...and ESPN's confidential rating system handed him an 82.0.

Maybe they do some real time judgments like PFF where they say "well, Tannehill only completed half his passes, but the passes he did complete were in tight windows and were perfectly placed whereas Joe Burrow's targets were more wide open" or something like that but even then almost twice the score? Seems pretty hard to believe.

Last year, Joe Burrow was the highest rated QB in PFF (I think. Tom Brady may have jumped him in the final game cuz Joe didn't play in week 18, I don't recall). He had a QB rating of 108.3, which was 2nd in the league behind MVP Aaron Rodgers. Led the league in completion percentage and yards per attempt but, somehow, he only had a 60.2 QBR.

Notably worse QBs that had a higher QBR than Burrow last year:
Kyler Murray
Ryan Tannehill
Carson Wentz

Notably worse QBs that have a higher QBR than Burrow right now:
Jacoby Brissett
Lamar Jackson
Derek Carr
Daniel Jones
Marcus Mariota

With Jared Goff and Justin Fields just below Burrow.

At this point, I just completely disregard that stat. They won't tell us how it is created, what factors it takes into account and how players could raise or lower them for things not related to passing the ball.

It's not a good metric to judge anything by, as far as I can tell.

As for Burrow's interceptions, it's notable that 4 of his 8 interceptions (at least, off the top of my head. I don't recall the other 4 at the moment) have come off batted passes, 2 of which were just TJ Watt making absurd plays at the line of scrimmage. And 4 of the 8 total were in week 1 when he had not thrown a pass in a game since the Super Bowl and was coming off an emergency appendectomy that knocked him out of the entire Training Camp and had him lose over 20 pounds in a month. He obviously wasn't right for those first 2 games, but he slowly regained his health and is playing at what would be an MVP level right now if Patrick Mahomes wasn't just...a football God, essentially.

I don't say any of this to demean the Titans or Ryan Tannehill. You're a Titans fan so you have probably only seen the Bengals play once or twice this year. Trust me when I tell you, Burrow is way better than Tannehill. They aren't on the same level. Not now, and not in the future either.

And that's okay. Tannehill is filling his role in Tennessee very well. But you're going to lose a lot of credibility on a Bengals forum and, honestly, on any non-Titans forum if you continue to claim they are playing comparably right now.

QBR (invented by ESPN in 2011) is a harder metric to grasp, especially since there are 6 major metrics that it is following and the first one has a number of moving parts. Contrast that to passer rating (which is a real NFL stat) which is only about passing yards/completion percentage/TDs/sacks and nothing more.  Some of the metrics are subjective at best.  For example, there is a "discount" for garbage time stats, that is a QB that gets a whole bunch of yards when the game is out of reach. I'd love to see how that's calculated and if someone has to manually determine that.

As for the names on this list, I think Lamar Jackson would like to have a word with you on whether Joe Burrow is a better QB. But let's discuss Marcus Mariota since we Titans fans are very familiar with him and his game play since he started for us for years. No one is saying that Mariota is better than Burrow...heck, he'd probably agree. (And Mariota was loved in Nashville as a great human being, but he was a middling, inconsistent QB). But QBR helps Mariota in that running the football is considered to be something that gooses the metric. And Mariota has always done well there (as has Lamar Jackson).

And then there's the "degree of difficulty" metric for a play. So I expect that a QB isn't rewarded much if he checks down a lot, but gets points for harder, down the field passes. Then you get freaks like Mahomes who can pocket pass in tight windows down the field, run the ball AND do freaky off-schedule stuff that kills defenses (like what happened to us twice now).

So a passer rating is certainly easier to wrap your brain around. But QBR was supposed to rate the entire package of the athlete, so to speak.

[Sevenfeet]

(11-22-2022, 06:40 PM)Joelist Wrote: QBR is a joke and always has been. It's the butt of jokes in a lot of football places and indeed with a lot of analysts. here's some QBR goodness:

Drew Brees 

26/36 332 5 tds 0 ints 146 passer Rating, but ESPN has a 70 QBR 
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331027018 


Terrelle Pryor 
10/19 88 yards 0 tds 2 ints 9 carries 105 yards 1 td 
25 Passer Rating, but 96.2 QBR 
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331027013 


And just two articles about the joke that is QBR - a synthetic stat with mystery sauce from ESPN meant to promote ESPN.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/10/espns-qbr-ranks-ryan-fitzpatrick-ahead-of-tom-brady/



https://awfulannouncing.com/2011-articles/espns-new-qbr-stat-isnt-perfect-after-all.html

My earlier point exactly. QBR rewards quarterbacks who can run the football. The NFL passer rating doesn't take the into account. Perhaps the running metric is much too emphasized versus what it should be.

[Interceptor]

I expect the Titans to follow the Browns blueprint.