Time to give some props to Frank Pollack

[*ochocincos*]

(11-29-2022, 05:25 PM)casear2727 Wrote: It is not close.

Hopkins passing grade: 51.4
Karras passing grade: 74.5

Hopkins had more than double sacks, hits, hurries and penalties than Karras.

You are going off Hopkins' full year, whereas I said toward the end of the year after he recovered.
Give me some time and I will post Hopkins' games in Dec and Jan last season to showcase my point.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-29-2022, 05:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You are going off Hopkins' full year, whereas I said toward the end of the year after he recovered.
Give me some time and I will post Hopkins' games in Dec and Jan last season to showcase my point.

A few decent games, after he returned from injury does not define his total body of work.  If someone compares their lifetime stats, the difference likely becomes even more stark.  Hopkins defaulted into Center, because he wasn't good enough to play Guard.  We were so hard up when he came in, that the bottom of the "average" curve seemed like a tremendous upgrade.

[*Synric*]

(11-29-2022, 05:36 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: A few decent games, after he returned from injury does not define his total body of work.  If someone compares their lifetime stats, the difference likely becomes even more stark.  Hopkins defaulted into Center, because he wasn't good enough to play Guard.  We were so hard up when he came in, that the bottom of the "average" curve seemed like a tremendous upgrade.

Hopkins was a very good pass blocker his entire career. It's his poor runblocking that left alot to be desired. 

[casear2727]

(11-29-2022, 12:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's the left side you could argue is somewhat worse than last year though.
Jonah hasn't been the same guy he was last year, and Volson looks to be (somewhat) worse than Spain, at least up to this point.

Jonah's last two games he graded over 80 in pass blocking and has 3 total thus far.  He had only 2 last season.

Take away the Cleveland game and Jonah has given up 6 sacks, 4 hits and 15 hurries.  Team supposedly found out about Zimmer's death the day of the Cleveland game, not sure the impact?

Who knows the impact of his knee injury?  Jonah had terrible games vs the Saints & Browns, was below avg opening day and vs the Cowboys, but has shown flashes and one could argue more consistent than last season in which he graded under 60 in 8 games, he has graded under 60 only 3 times this season.

I agree with the majority of your post though.

[casear2727]

(11-29-2022, 05:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You are going off Hopkins' full year, whereas I said toward the end of the year after he recovered.
Give me some time and I will post Hopkins' games in Dec and Jan last season to showcase my point.

You are absolutely correct that other than the Rams, which is understandable, he did have good blocking grades during the post season.

But I think if you add in Karras' leadership and massive improvement in the run game it isnt a close comparison.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-29-2022, 05:18 PM)casear2727 Wrote:

Bengals OL since Week 7:

- 21.3% pressure rate allowed (7th)

Bengals OL full season:

- 24.4% pressure rate allowed on true pass sets (1st)

— Brad Spielberger, Esq. (@PFF_Brad) November 29, 2022

 

I don't know what "true pass sets" means versus just pressure rate. It sounds like it's a BS stat if it's saying the team that's allowed the 5th most sacks in the NFL is 1st in it, though. Lol

Again, I agree there has been improvement but still gotta look at who they played. Week 7 onward cuts out 4 of the 5 games the Bengals have played against teams with winning records...

5-7 Falcons
4-7 Browns
4-8 Panthers
4-7 Steelers
7-4 Titans

The only team close to a winning record on that list are the Titans, and they are 1-4 this year against teams with a winning record and have just feasted on beating up horrible teams. Heck, their 1 win against a team with a winning record came against the Wentz Commanders who were 2-4 under Wentz before going 5-1 with Heinicke. I wouldn't bet on the Titans against the Heinicke Commanders. The Titans other 6 wins have all been 4 win or worse teams.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2022, 05:54 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't know what "true pass sets" means versus just pressure rate. It sounds like it's a BS stat if it's saying the team that's allowed the 5th most sacks in the NFL is 1st in it, though. Lol

Again, I agree there has been improvement but still gotta look at who they played. Week 7 onward cuts out 4 of the 5 games the Bengals have played against teams with winning records...

5-7 Falcons
4-7 Browns
4-8 Panthers
4-7 Steelers
7-4 Titans

The only team close to a winning record on that list are the Titans, and they are 1-4 this year against teams with a winning record and have just feasted on beating up horrible teams. Heck, their 1 win against a team with a winning record came against the Wentz Commanders who were 2-4 under Wentz before going 5-1 with Heinicke. I wouldn't bet on the Titans against the Heinicke Commanders. The Titans other 6 wins have all been 4 win or worse teams.

A true pass set takes out things that give an offense an advantage. Things like less than 4 rushers, play action, quick passes (not sure the exact time--maybe 2.5 seconds, 2 seconds?), screens, etc. They are straight drop backs with no window dressing. It's considered a more stable metric because there's nothing giving a lineman an advantage. It's you blocking them on an even field.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-29-2022, 11:43 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Where? Volson has done great for a rookie. He’s going to be a solid guard. Williams and the others are signed to deals. We need all the money we can muster to resign our own free agents.

Both tackles, preferably, but I know it's not happening. Both have been huge letdowns this year. Disagree on describing Volson as "great", even for a rookie, but he's improved enough you probably have to give him another year.

Sadly I think the Bengals are pretty much locked in on Jonah's option for 2023, unless they could somehow find a taker for it. That would be daylight robbery if they could. Should still draft T early. Very little of Collins' contract is guaranteed and they could move on with little financial penalty.

Bengals have the 6th most cap space in the NFL heading into 2023 as of right now and I wouldn't be surprised if Mixon doesn't get cut next offseason. It would save $7.25m in cap space in 2023 and $12.85m in 2024 which could directly go towards Higgins if they're actually planning on trying to keep both Chase and Higgins to go with Burrow. A top paid RB who doesn't produce like a top RB is pure wasteful luxury.

[JUDAS MESIAS]

The line has been evolving all year. They have gotten much better and I believe they will make a huge impact down the stretch.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2022, 06:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Both tackles, preferably, but I know it's not happening. Both have been huge letdowns this year. Disagree on describing Volson as "great", even for a rookie, but he's improved enough you probably have to give him another year.

Sadly I think the Bengals are pretty much locked in on Jonah's option for 2023, unless they could somehow find a taker for it. That would be daylight robbery if they could. Should still draft T early. Very little of Collins' contract is guaranteed and they could move on with little financial penalty.

Bengals have the 6th most cap space in the NFL heading into 2023 as of right now and I wouldn't be surprised if Mixon doesn't get cut next offseason. It would save $7.25m in cap space in 2023 and $12.85m in 2024 which could directly go towards Higgins if they're actually planning on trying to keep both Chase and Higgins to go with Burrow. A top paid RB who doesn't produce like a top RB is pure wasteful luxury.

Jonah has played much better the last 2 games. Not just by grades or numbers but he looks better. I looked at rookie Gs on PFF last week. Volson is pretty much right in the middle, numbers-wise with 7 other guys from this draft that have played at least 50% of max snaps. One other 4th rounder, one 3rd rounder, two 2nd rounders and three 1st rounders. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-29-2022, 06:27 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Jonah has played much better the last 2 games. Not just by grades or numbers but he looks better. I looked at rookie Gs on PFF last week. Volson is pretty much right in the middle, numbers-wise with 7 other guys from this draft. One other 4th rounder, one 3rd rounder, two 2nd rounders and three 1st rounders. 

I guess what I am trying to get at from the beginning is that a "props to Frank Pollack" thread while the team has still allowed the 5th most sacks in the NFL and is 29th in rushing YPC after last year being 3rd most sacks and 26th in rushing YPC seems... odd. 5th worst at not letting your QB get sacked and 4th worst at your RBs getting yards on their carries isn't really toot-his-horn-thread worthy when they have the 13th highest paid C, 15th highest paid G, 10th highest paid RT, and a 1st rounder LT you just picked the 5th year option up on. 

Wasn't the level of improvement I was expecting/looking for.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2022, 06:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I guess what I am trying to get at from the beginning is that a "props to Frank Pollack" thread while the team has still allowed the 5th most sacks in the NFL and is 29th in rushing YPC after last year being 3rd most sacks and 26th in rushing YPC seems... odd. 5th worst at not letting your QB get sacked and 4th worst at your RBs getting yards on their carries isn't really toot-his-horn-thread worthy when they have the 13th highest paid C, 15th highest paid G, 10th highest paid RT, and a 1st rounder LT you just picked the 5th year option up on. 

Wasn't the level of improvement I was expecting/looking for.

Are you talking about season-long or recent improvement? The first 2 games really skews the total numbers. I'm not saying, oh let's just forget that happened, but how have they done over the last 9 games, comparatively?

I think there's legitimate reason to believe they needed several games of playing together to play well. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-29-2022, 06:49 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Are you talking about season-long or recent improvement? The first 2 games really skews the total numbers. I'm not saying, oh let's just forget that happened, but how have they done over the last 9 games, comparatively?

I think there's legitimate reason to believe they needed several games of playing together to play well. 

You're right the first 2 games do skew the sack numbers a little (they've been bad rushing pretty much the entire year sans the Panthers anomaly so no skew there) but is that because they needed several games of playing together to play well (it's called Preseason, Zac Taylor, use it) or just because they played really stiff pass rushing competition? 

I am pretty confident that if they played the Cowboys again it would be much the same result. The Cowboys have 45 sacks and the team with the 2nd most in the NFL has 37. Lol. It is absurd.

Also not sure a healthy Steelers DL doesn't do similar again. Don't think Twatt is anywhere near himself right now. In his 3 games back he has 0.5 sacks (the .5 came against the Bengals) which is the lowest for any 3 game stretch for him since 2018. 

It feels a bit like saying "other than the good DLs, they have done pretty well, right?" Lol.. but I do understand what you're saying. I sure wish Taylor wasn't an idiot who thought practice was enough for 5 guys who had never played in a game with a single one of each other so we could be more certain if it was lack of cohesion or just higher level of competition.

At least we can confidently say that improved cohesion or not, the run game leaves a whooooole lot to be desired.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2022, 07:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You're right the first 2 games do skew the sack numbers a little (they've been bad rushing pretty much the entire year sans the Panthers anomaly so no skew there) but is that because they needed several games of playing together to play well (it's called Preseason, Zac Taylor, use it) or just because they played really stiff pass rushing competition? 

I am pretty confident that if they played the Cowboys again it would be much the same result. The Cowboys have 45 sacks and the team with the 2nd most in the NFL has 37. Lol. It is absurd.

Also not sure a healthy Steelers DL doesn't do similar again. Don't think Twatt is anywhere near himself right now. In his 3 games back he has 0.5 sacks (the .5 came against the Bengals) which is the lowest for any 3 game stretch for him since 2018. 

It feels a bit like saying "other than the good DLs, they have done pretty well, right?" Lol.. but I do understand what you're saying. I sure wish Taylor wasn't an idiot who thought practice was enough for 5 guys who had never played in a game with a single one of each other so we could be more certain if it was lack of cohesion or just higher level of competition.

At least we can confidently say that improved cohesion or not, the run game leaves a whooooole lot to be desired.

We will find that out in the Super Bowl.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-29-2022, 05:46 PM)casear2727 Wrote: You are absolutely correct that other than the Rams, which is understandable, he did have good blocking grades during the post season.

But I think if you add in Karras' leadership and massive improvement in the run game it isnt a close comparison.

Since I said I would, here were Hopkins' pass blocking grades after the bye week last season (inc. playoffs):
Week 11 (@LV) - 79.6
Week 12 (PIT) - 75.4
Week 13 (SF) - 57.8
Week 14 (@DEN) - 64.7
Week 15 (BAL) - 71.5
Week 16 (KC) - 68.4
Wildcard (LV) - 84.1
Divisional (@TEN) - 70.2
AFCCG (@KC) - 75.3
SB (LAR) - 50.9
In all those 10 games, his total sacks, hits, hurries:
Sacks - 2
Hits - 1
Hurries - 8
Total Pressures - 11

Compare that to Ted Karras' 2022 through 11 games:
74.5 pass block grade
2 sacks
1 hit
11 hurries
14 total pressures

Pretty close pass blocking wise.

As you said, the run blocking is better with Karras compared to Hopkins, but the pass blocking is about the same quality when looking at when Hopkins was finally healthy.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-29-2022, 06:20 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: A true pass set takes out things that give an offense an advantage. Things like less than 4 rushers, play action, quick passes (not sure the exact time--maybe 2.5 seconds, 2 seconds?), screens, etc. They are straight drop backs with no window dressing. It's considered a more stable metric because there's nothing giving a lineman an advantage. It's you blocking them on an even field.

Does it factor in > 4 rushers?

Because if it's just traditional 4 rushers vs 5 OL, I would think that typically favors the OL due to the extra man advantage.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2022, 07:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Does it factor in > 4 rushers?

Because if it's just traditional 4 rushers vs 5 OL, I would think that typically favors the OL due to the extra man advantage.

4 or more i would assume. I think what i recall reading was "less than 4 rushers", so i'd think 4 or more. I'll have to do some googlin' later on when i get home. 

[Rubekahn29]

(11-29-2022, 05:54 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't know what "true pass sets" means versus just pressure rate. It sounds like it's a BS stat if it's saying the team that's allowed the 5th most sacks in the NFL is 1st in it, though. Lol

Again, I agree there has been improvement but still gotta look at who they played. Week 7 onward cuts out 4 of the 5 games the Bengals have played against teams with winning records...

5-7 Falcons
4-7 Browns
4-8 Panthers
4-7 Steelers
7-4 Titans

The only team close to a winning record on that list are the Titans, and they are 1-4 this year against teams with a winning record and have just feasted on beating up horrible teams. Heck, their 1 win against a team with a winning record came against the Wentz Commanders who were 2-4 under Wentz before going 5-1 with Heinicke. I wouldn't bet on the Titans against the Heinicke Commanders. The Titans other 6 wins have all been 4 win or worse teams.

It’s in another thread, but of the teams we beat, they have the highest win percentage of any of the playoff teams currently.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-29-2022, 07:10 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: We will find that out in the Super Bowl.

I doubt it, and not because of the Bengals. I personally just don't trust Dak Prescott in getting to the SB even though I know the Cowboys have a good team this year. He's a good QB, but he's been coddled by great OL and great running game his whole career that have hidden him from needing to carry a team, and I don't know if he can step up and win it in the playoffs based off his arm. I think in my mind he's basically Kirk Cousins, if Kirk Cousins had been drafted to a team with a HoF OL and great running game.

I guess it's still possible that we see Parsons pull a Von Miller and just put the team on his back while they run heavily on the run game, but I would put better odds on the NFC's representative being the Eagles.

I think there's the Eagles, Cowboys, Chiefs, Dolphins, and Bengals who are real SB contenders left. 

Kirk Cousins is just Dak on a worse team, Jimmy G is simply bad in the playoffs and the 49ers this year aren't enough to carry him like they have in past playoffs, I don't trust the Bills when Josh Allen's elbow is balky and he's thrown 4 TD/5 INT with barely 60% completion and sub-7.0 YPA in the 4 games he's been injured, Lamar Jackson is terrible in the playoffs, and Ryan Tannehill is Ryan Tannehill.

[Soonerpeace]

(11-29-2022, 06:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Both tackles, preferably, but I know it's not happening. Both have been huge letdowns this year. Disagree on describing Volson as "great", even for a rookie, but he's improved enough you probably have to give him another year.

Sadly I think the Bengals are pretty much locked in on Jonah's option for 2023, unless they could somehow find a taker for it. That would be daylight robbery if they could. Should still draft T early. Very little of Collins' contract is guaranteed and they could move on with little financial penalty.

Bengals have the 6th most cap space in the NFL heading into 2023 as of right now and I wouldn't be surprised if Mixon doesn't get cut next offseason. It would save $7.25m in cap space in 2023 and $12.85m in 2024 which could directly go towards Higgins if they're actually planning on trying to keep both Chase and Higgins to go with Burrow. A top paid RB who doesn't produce like a top RB is pure wasteful luxury.

Respectfully we aren’t remotely on the same page. The Browns/Blackburns honor contracts and love Mixon personally. It’s not even a 1/1000 chance he gets cut. They’ve made their investment in the line. They are moving on to sign Higgins, Joe, and Boyd ( another Brown favorite). They will likely try to retain Bates but he wants the money. They covered themself with Dax Hill. They’ve also got Logan Wilson to keep. They won’t do squat in free agency unless it’s to replace a player they didn’t want to lose. All the money is going to keep players.