Anthony Munoz

[sonofstat]

You might need to bear with me on this question :) !

I obviously know about the storied career and the Pro Bowl / All Pro selections etc. and he's always in the greatest ever type conversations so this may appear a strange thing to ask...but how ridiculously good was he and what was it about him that truly elevates him above the other recent greats I know more about (Walter Jones, Jon Ogden)?

The reason I am asking is that I've been looking at some of the videos posted online of old Bengals games and whilst there dominating blocks and athleticism on display (saw a great game he played .vs. Chicago in '89 who had Dent, Hampton and Singletary at the time) there have actually been more a bit more pressures/sacks given up then I was maybe expecting to see. Seen some old videos of games .vs. Bill, Jets, Seahawks and others mainly from 88 Super Bowl season and there are players like Kevin Fagan, Rufus Porter, Alex Gordon as well as all timers like Bruce Smith having some joy.

I'm absolutely not hating on an all time legend but would just love to hear some perspective from you folks who may have been able to appreciate him at the time or know a lot about OL play to be able to describe what made him the best.

I also recognise that some of this is probably having gone looking for someone called the best ever I'm maybe expecting perfection when reality is the other guys get paid too!

[Wilikn]

1st team All Pro for a decade straight.  Four times the players voted him the offensive lineman of the year which tells you all you need to know.

I imagine it happened other times, and I was pretty young watching him, but he's the only guy I remember you could leave on an island with Bruce Smith, Lawrence Taylor, etc, and not have a care in the world.  

Conditioning and preparation matched ridiculous talent.  He simply didn't miss games.  Probably easier then than now since now lineman are expected to carry around 75 lbs of fat.

A guy like Tony Boselli was probably as impressive to the eye.  He was not nearly as durable.

Similar to JJ Watt, a fixture in the passing game on short yardage plays.

Think on it this way.  He played a position wherein stats tell us nothing.  He didn't play for the Cowboys, Steelers  or Niners.  He wasn't on a fashionable team like the 1985 Bears.  He didn't play for the 60's Packers.  He was a Bengal, yet widely acknowledged as the benchmark.  Gotta be special in everyone's eyes for that kind of attention.

[BengalFanInNJ]

Bruce Smith did have a little success against him, but he too was a Hall of Famer.

Wilikn makes a great point about how much publicity Munoz got even though he played for a smaller market team in Cincinnati. I grew up in central New Jersey in the largest media market in the world and while the Bengals weren't a huge publicity target, everyone knew that Anthony Munoz was the best Tackle of all time.

[Sled21]

I loved watching Munoz play. What always baffled me is how little love the other half of the Mexican Connection, Max Montoya, received....

[GreenCornBengal]

(12-16-2015, 11:01 AM)Wilikn Wrote: Think on it this way.  He played a position wherein stats tell us nothing.  He didn't play for the Cowboys, Steelers  or Niners.  He wasn't on a fashionable team like the 1985 Bears.  He didn't play for the 60's Packers.  He was a Bengal, yet widely acknowledged as the benchmark.  Gotta be special in everyone's eyes for that kind of attention.

Never thought of it that way. Very true!

[sonofstat]

(12-16-2015, 11:57 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I loved watching Munoz play. What always baffled me is how little love the other half of the Mexican Connection, Max Montoya, received....

You know its funny in watching back some of 80's games to see Munoz I realised at the same time how little pressure was coming form the right side...which was the blind side really with Boomer throwing.

In the 88' season games I've seen highlights of Joe Walter is playing out of his skin too...swear there is as much , if not more pressure coming from Munoz's edge than his.  Appreciate he may have been getting more help from Holman,Wilson but still...what an O Line!!!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-16-2015, 11:57 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I loved watching Munoz play. What always baffled me is how little love the other half of the Mexican Connection, Max Montoya, received....

Yup....he was a good one, both here, and for the Raiders.

(12-16-2015, 12:38 PM)sonofstat Wrote: You know its funny in watching back some of 80's games to see Munoz I realised at the same time how little pressure was coming form the right side...which was the blind side really with Boomer throwing.

In the 88' season games I've seen highlights of Joe Walter is playing out of his skin too...swear there is as much , if not more pressure coming from Munoz's edge than his.  Appreciate he may have been getting more help from Holman,Wilson but still...what an O Line!!!

It was a thing of beauty.....

[Wilikn]

(12-16-2015, 11:57 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I loved watching Munoz play. What always baffled me is how little love the other half of the Mexican Connection, Max Montoya, received....

One guy played LT, the glory position if there was such a thing on the OLine.  That same one guy was drafted about a thousand spots higher in the draft.  

The next Guard to get get any real attention will be the first of his kind (setting aside a Cowboys' Guard who is enormously fat and sold drugs).

[BengalFanInNJ]

(12-16-2015, 12:38 PM)sonofstat Wrote: You know its funny in watching back some of 80's games to see Munoz I realised at the same time how little pressure was coming form the right side...which was the blind side really with Boomer throwing.

In the 88' season games I've seen highlights of Joe Walter is playing out of his skin too...swear there is as much , if not more pressure coming from Munoz's edge than his.  Appreciate he may have been getting more help from Holman,Wilson but still...what an O Line!!!

Joe Walter was on his way to being an elite OT before he tore his ACL against the Redskins that year. They really needed him too because in the Super Bowl, the Niners pressured Esiason pretty well.

That said, that offensive line was amazing.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(12-16-2015, 01:30 PM)Wilikn Wrote: One guy played LT, the glory position if there was such a thing on the OLine.  That same one guy was drafted about a thousand spots higher in the draft.  

The next Guard to get get any real attention will be the first of his kind (setting aside a Cowboys' Guard who is enormously fat and sold drugs).

Russ Grimm, Mike Munchak, Gene Upshaw, Will Shields.....and I assume it's Larry Allen you are *attempting* to make fun of.

[Ctfan73]

For those who didn't see him play, re-watch some of the old games on YouTube and study his run blocking. He was a great pass blocker but, I think, at his best in the run game.

[Wilikn]

(12-16-2015, 03:46 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Russ Grimm, Mike Munchak, Gene Upshaw, Will Shields.....and I assume it's Larry Allen you are *attempting* to make fun of.

Larry Allen was a tackle.

Nate Newton was a guard, was and remains extremely fat, and was jailed for distribution.  Very popular, well known, that sort of thing, mostly because of his incredible fatness and loud personality.  He really wasn't THAT great.

I know all of the names above.  I feel comfortable in my ability to name most every All Pro guard going a decade prior to my birth.  None, not one, received the kind of attention Munoz received.. and continues to receive really.   Kind of like comparing a great long reliever with a starting pitcher.  Perception is, if he's THAT great, he'd be a LT, or a center.  

Not completely true, but a common perception.

IMO, Bruce Matthews was better than every guy you named up there.  Will Shields pretty good tho

If I offended you in some way by poking fun at Nate Newton.. who appeared, I guess, to be Larry Allen.. then apologies.  Nate Newton referred to himself as fat.  In fact, his plans (his words) for retirement was to sit down and get SERIOUSLY fat. 

[RoyleRedlegs]

(12-16-2015, 03:54 PM)Wilikn Wrote: Larry Allen was a tackle.

Nate Newton was a guard, was and remains extremely fat, and was jailed for distribution.  Very popular, well known, that sort of thing, mostly because of his incredible fatness and loud personality.  He really wasn't THAT great.

I know all of the names above.  I feel comfortable in my ability to name most every All Pro guard going a decade prior to my birth.  None, not one, received the kind of attention Munoz received.. and continues to receive really.   Kind of like comparing a great long reliever with a starting pitcher.  Perception is, if he's THAT great, he'd be a LT, or a center.  

Not completely true, but a common perception.

IMO, Bruce Matthews was better than every guy you named up there.  Will Shields pretty good tho

I guess I'm just not seeing your whole point. 
Newton was never regarded as good as Munoz. Allen was a guard and tackle. So was Newton. So was Matthews. 

[Wilikn]

(12-16-2015, 04:00 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I guess I'm just not seeing your whole point. 

The initial statement was (paraphrase), "Why did Montoya get so little love in comparison to Munoz?"

The answer, IMO, is many pronged, but the simplest prong is that tackles always receive more accolades than guards, as do centers.  Nate Newton was referenced as he was a household name (again, IMO) in the early 90's.  In part for being a 90's Cowboy, in part for being entertaining with sound bytes that often poked fun at his waist, and then in part for getting jailed for distribution.   I imagine those who did enjoy him for the most part didn't know what position he played.

The Larry Allen reference ties in well.  Larry moved to guard late in his career because he couldn't move anymore.   Similar to the starting pitcher who finishes his career as a long reliever once the fastball loses zip.  Also, I don't recall anyone ever introducing the topic of, "best guard ever.."  like they don't discuss the best long relievers ever.

Much of the above is opinion of course.  Not meant to be inflammatory.  Munoz was just a much better player than Max.  Probably could have led with that.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-16-2015, 03:52 PM)Ctfan73 Wrote: For those who didn't see him play, re-watch some of the old games on YouTube and study his run blocking.  He was a great pass blocker but, I think, at his best in the run game.

Go back and watch 80's games and you'll see the D line getting blown backwards 3-5 yards on many run plays by that line. Hands down one of the best ever.

[Hammerstripes]

(12-16-2015, 03:54 PM)Wilikn Wrote: Larry Allen was a tackle.

Nate Newton was a guard, was and remains extremely fat, and was jailed for distribution.  Very popular, well known, that sort of thing, mostly because of his incredible fatness and loud personality.  He really wasn't THAT great.

I know all of the names above.  I feel comfortable in my ability to name most every All Pro guard going a decade prior to my birth.  None, not one, received the kind of attention Munoz received.. and continues to receive really.   Kind of like comparing a great long reliever with a starting pitcher.  Perception is, if he's THAT great, he'd be a LT, or a center.  

Not completely true, but a common perception.

IMO, Bruce Matthews was better than every guy you named up there.  Will Shields pretty good tho

If I offended you in some way by poking fun at Nate Newton.. who appeared, I guess, to be Larry Allen.. then apologies.  Nate Newton referred to himself as fat.  In fact, his plans (his words) for retirement was to sit down and get SERIOUSLY fat. 

Larry Allen was the best guard to ever play the game.  He only played left tackle in an emergency.

He was NOT a tackle.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(12-16-2015, 04:12 PM)Wilikn Wrote: The initial statement was (paraphrase), "Why did Montoya get so little love in comparison to Munoz?"

The answer, IMO, is many pronged, but the simplest prong is that tackles always receive more accolades than guards, as do centers.  Nate Newton was referenced as he was a household name (again, IMO) in the early 90's.  In part for being a 90's Cowboy, in part for being entertaining with sound bytes that often poked fun at his waist, and then in part for getting jailed for distribution.   I imagine those who did enjoy him for the most part didn't know what position he played.

The Larry Allen reference ties in well.  Larry moved to guard late in his career because he couldn't move anymore.   Similar to the starting pitcher who finishes his career as a long reliever once the fastball loses zip.  Also, I don't recall anyone ever introducing the topic of, "best guard ever.."  like they don't discuss the best long relievers ever.

Much of the above is opinion of course.  Not meant to be inflammatory.  Munoz was just a much better player than Max.  Probably could have led with that.

Larry didn't move to guard late in his career. 
He played both his entire career. Most famed for his play as a guard. 
6 of 7 All-Pro seasons came as a guard. Only one at tackle. 

[Bengalzona]

Anthony was 6' 6", but only between 278-284 lbs during his playing days. Small by today's standards, that would have been a typical size for an NFL OT in that time period. But he was an anomaly because of the way he played.

His nickname was "the Big Cat". This was, on one hand, a reference to the team mascot. But it was primarily a reference to how Anthony moved. During the 70's, even the best NFL OT's were little more than slow moving trees (Ron Yary, George Kunz, Art Shell, Rayfield Wright, etc.). Anthony was different. While he was noted as being one of the greatest roadgrade blockers ever (sometimes levelling guys up to 15 or 20 times a game), he had a high degree of agility, quickness and flexibility. He was also known for his nimble footwork, and he could kickstep and set to match even the fastest rushers of the day.

This was important as the pass rushing changed in the 80's. A new breed of HoF linebackers like Lawrence Taylor, Mike Singletary, etc. who were beginning to specialize in rushing the passer were coming on the scene. This opened up new opportunities for HoF defensive ends such as Bruce Smith, Reggie White, etc. It also changed the needs and requirements for QB protection. You couldn't put your RB out there to chipblock LT. It just didn't work.

Anthony was the first with the agility skills to meet these guys and be successful. It would take years to develop new players in that mold, but it has now become the standard. You can look at more recent players like Ogden or Walter Jones and claim that they are better than Anthony physically or skill wise. And you may have a point. But they did not change the position the way he did. And only Ogden and Jones have dominated opponents the way he did. All LT's are measured today off of the skills he originally brought to the table. That is why he gets the credit he gets. And the credit is not only from fans, but from the players he played against and the NFL community as a whole.

Also, for the record, Munoz started out defending Kenny Anderson, a right-handed QB. That is where he earned his name as a blindside protector. He blocked for Anderson from '80 to '86.

[Wilikn]

(12-16-2015, 07:21 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Larry Allen was the best guard to ever play the game.  He only played left tackle in an emergency.

He was NOT a tackle.

Minutiae

He played Tackle (as well as guard) every season in his NFL career except the last two or three.  It worked out nicely as he could be an All Pro at either position, and he wouldn't have been good enough to beat out tackles every year.

Must have been a lot of emergencies given he spent entire seasons at tackle.

Tuinei and Erik Williams started tackle when Larry was younger, both Pro Bowl caliber.  So to get a stud like him in, that leaves guard.  If/when either Tuinei or Williams went down, Larry moved to tackle.  Tuinei left, Larry to tackle.  

If my only point is that tackle is where the most gifted lineman play, I'm not sure how this is proven errant.  You take a really good tackle, play him at guard a lot, he becomes the best guard that ever lived.  I'll side with you there.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(12-17-2015, 11:26 AM)Wilikn Wrote: Minutiae

He played Tackle (as well as guard) every season in his NFL career except the last two or three.  It worked out nicely as he could be an All Pro at either position, and he wouldn't have been good enough to beat out tackles every year.

Must have been a lot of emergencies given he spent entire seasons at tackle.

Tuinei and Erik Williams started tackle when Larry was younger, both Pro Bowl caliber.  So to get a stud like him in, that leaves guard.  If/when either Tuinei or Williams went down, Larry moved to tackle.  Tuinei left, Larry to tackle.  

If my only point is that tackle is where the most gifted lineman play, I'm not sure how this is proven errant.  You take a really good tackle, play him at guard a lot, he becomes the best guard that ever lived.  I'll side with you there.

You were saying?

And in one of the 2 seasons where he was a majority tackle, he had the worst AV of his career.

Just stop, please; he was a guard for 80%+ of his career snaps.