Zac has to give up playcalling

[casear2727]

(02-05-2023, 07:41 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: My gut reaction was to not like the 2 deep throws following 2nd and short. But they were close to hitting and would've been game changing. My real issue with Zac was the bad timeouts. I think those fall into the situational football that Zac struggles with. While we've improved in other areas that particular area we seem to either not be learning from or learning very slowly.

Zac has had a few games with great time management, and many others like the season before last with the 49ers that were just head shaking...

He is going to have his bumps in the road, we just have to hope he continues to improve all facets of the HC role.

[jfkbengals]

(01-30-2023, 10:44 AM)higgy100 Wrote: True but what's even worse was the management at the end of the 1st half. They complete the pass to Tee at the 5 for a 1st down and they should have come down and spiked the ball to stop the clock instead of rushing the next play. Far more important with 10 seconds on the clock and having 2 snaps to run plays than rushing to get 3 snaps.

^^^ This

I've said it ever since, Joseph Ossai's penalty didn't cost us the game, this did.  And the second down play call was horrendous anyway.  Had everyone in bunch for throws towards the pylon.  Had the WR been lined up out wide, we would have had time to try the same thing on third down before a 4th down FG, instead of having to kick on third down.

[*michaelsean*]

Just an FYI…the ball doesn’t have to get to the line of scrimmage if an eligible receiver is in the vicinity. It’s no different than a missed screen pass.

[NUGDUKWE]

(02-05-2023, 07:05 PM)Bengal Billy Wrote: Gotta agree.

- Back-to-back AFCN titles
- Back-to-back AFCC games
- a SB appearance

Yup, let's fire the coach 

I might have missed it but I don't think anyone suggested firing Zac. Now bringing in a new OC to call the plays and handle the situational events that arise. I wouldn't even look at it like a demotion. I mean it's worked out pretty well for the Eagles and I doubt anyone is looking down at they're coach.

[casear2727]

(01-30-2023, 09:59 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: I been asking for Zac's firing since forever.  The players' talent is carrying this team. Put Zac against a good coach and it's game over for us. The D has been carrying this team to victory more often than none due to the offense inability to score and move the ball. They win and score easy because of the Talent our receivers have, all it takes one sprint and accurate pass by Joe and you got 7pts. The inability to control/manage the game with the offense, has never been there like a well coached, dominant offense.  

This offense is no different than Marvin's offense, where they easily scored, but coming up short. This offense is even more talented. They came up short in the SB and again last night in similar fashion.

(02-05-2023, 09:08 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I might have missed it but I don't think anyone suggested firing Zac. Now bringing in a new OC to call the plays and handle the situational events that arise. I wouldn't even look at it like a demotion. I mean it's worked out pretty well for the Eagles and I doubt anyone is looking down at they're coach.

Yes you missed it.

[Bengalitis]

(02-06-2023, 12:48 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Yes you missed it.

 
Yep, Zac proved nothing his first 2 years, took the player talent to get us to the super bowl and Lou's defense.  Could be Callahan the weak link perhaps?.. but Zac still calls the plays. Need a coach who can trust his offensive coordinator to make the calls and a captain to run the ship.

[casear2727]

(02-07-2023, 09:28 PM)Bengalitis Wrote:  
Yep, Zac proved nothing his first 2 years, took the player talent to get us to the super bowl and Lou's defense.  Could be Callahan the weak link perhaps?.. but Zac still calls the plays. Need a coach who can trust his offensive coordinator to make the calls and a captain to run the ship.

Or maybe not be ignorant to the history of coaches that turned around losing organizations? 

Jimmy Jones only won 1 game his first season as the Cowboys coach... should have fired his ass before those Super Bowls right?

Belichick won only 5 games his first season... just think if they canned him.

It is like you don't understand the NFL or the history of the organization that you are supposedly a fan of...  it is really kind of stupid.

Zac is no Lombardi but he has done things no other coach in the history of our franchise has done.  I have several complaints about certain things at times but I cant argue his results because that would be stupid and Im not going to say it's all because of the players because that would be even more stupid.  I mean, why even have coaches?  Or is it only Zac that has players that overcome his poor coaching?  

You honestly do not make any sense, I could destroy an argument or coach suggestion you may propose to replace Zac.  And again, I am not a huge Zac guy.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-07-2023, 09:28 PM)Bengalitis Wrote:  
Yep, Zac proved nothing his first 2 years, took the player talent to get us to the super bowl and Lou's defense.  Could be Callahan the weak link perhaps?.. but Zac still calls the plays. Need a coach who can trust his offensive coordinator to make the calls and a captain to run the ship.

(02-07-2023, 11:38 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Or maybe not be ignorant to the history of coaches that turned around losing organizations? 

Jimmy Jones only won 1 game his first season as the Cowboys coach... should have fired his ass before those Super Bowls right?

Belichick won only 5 games his first season... just think if they canned him.

It is like you don't understand the NFL or the history of the organization that you are supposedly a fan of...  it is really kind of stupid.

Zac is no Lombardi but he has done things no other coach in the history of our franchise has done.  I have several complaints about certain things at times but I cant argue his results because that would be stupid and Im not going to say it's all because of the players because that would be even more stupid.  I mean, why even have coaches?  Or is it only Zac that has players that overcome his poor coaching?  

You honestly do not make any sense, I could destroy an argument or coach suggestion you may propose to replace Zac.  And again, I am not a huge Zac guy.

Bengalitis has some required history reading. Jimmy Johnson won 1 game his first year and in his first 3 years started about like Zac. When he got Aikman, Irvin, and Emmitt Smitb ( all HOF first ballot ) they took off. Gosh that sounds familiar. Johnson also benefited from one of the most lopsided trades in NFL history.

“ Jimmy Johnson set up the Cowboys dynasty with an unbelievable trade in 1990, moving star running back Herschel Walker and four draft picks to Minnesota for five players, three first-round picks, three second-round picks, a third-round pick and a sixth-round pick. Walker played only two seasons in Minnesota, failing to rush for 1,000 yards in either campaign.”

Bill Belichick’s career record w/o Tom Brady under .500.

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(02-09-2023, 11:24 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Bengalitis has some required history reading. Jimmy Johnson won 1 game his first year and in his first 3 years started about like Zac. When he got Aikman, Irvin, and Emmitt Smitb ( all HOF first ballot ) they took off. Gosh that sounds familiar.  Johnson also benefited from one of the most lopsided trades in NFL history.

“ Jimmy Johnson set up the Cowboys dynasty with an unbelievable trade in 1990, moving star running back Herschel Walker and four draft picks to Minnesota for five players, three first-round picks, three second-round picks, a third-round pick and a sixth-round pick. Walker played only two seasons in Minnesota, failing to rush for 1,000 yards in either campaign.”

Bill Belichick’s career record w/o Tom Brady under .500.

That team was based on the best O-line in the history of the NFL, without it Emmitt Smith does'nt get 10k yards in his career. That line was the dynasty.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-09-2023, 11:37 AM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: That team was based on the best O-line in the history of the NFL, without it Emmitt Smith does'nt get 10k yards in his career. That line was the dynasty.

And acquired it in the Herschel Walker trade. But it was just as much Aikman, Smith, and Irvin.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-09-2023, 11:24 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Bengalitis has some required history reading. Jimmy Johnson won 1 game his first year and in his first 3 years started about like Zac. When he got Aikman, Irvin, and Emmitt Smitb ( all HOF first ballot ) they took off. Gosh that sounds familiar.  Johnson also benefited from one of the most lopsided trades in NFL history.

“ Jimmy Johnson set up the Cowboys dynasty with an unbelievable trade in 1990, moving star running back Herschel Walker and four draft picks to Minnesota for five players, three first-round picks, three second-round picks, a third-round pick and a sixth-round pick. Walker played only two seasons in Minnesota, failing to rush for 1,000 yards in either campaign.”

Bill Belichick’s career record w/o Tom Brady under .500.

Going even further back, look at the 49ers before Bill Walsh, the Steelers before Chuck Noll.  In fact, most Super Bowl winning coaches started with a shit team and turned them around over the course of a few years.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-09-2023, 01:41 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Going even further back, look at the 49ers before Bill Walsh, the Steelers before Chuck Noll.  In fact, most Super Bowl winning coaches started with a shit team and turned them around over the course of a few years.

Yep there’s a long list. Funny how it goes hand in hand. If some want to dig into their mantra Zac under achieved his first year then so be it. He was what 35-36?. He got named coach after the Super Bowl and a lot of coaching targets weren’t available. He didn’t have time to get involved much in FA or the draft. He was inexperienced to say the least. He was a young coach with no reputation as being successful and the locker room with mixed emotions. They talk about half the team is in the building on Monday’s their day off. They do film work as position groups w/o their coach. I would bet that wasn’t happening with some of the stars and vets on his first team. Zac’s second year was horribly depleted with injuries and not just Burrow. They were showing signs of life.

There were a lot of doubters of Zac from day one. He was young and woefully inexperienced. Then they went 2-14. Some pundits dug in. It’s silly not to admit he’s done really well.

[Bengalitis]

(02-09-2023, 01:41 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Going even further back, look at the 49ers before Bill Walsh, the Steelers before Chuck Noll.  In fact, most Super Bowl winning coaches started with a shit team and turned them around over the course of a few years.

That's my point, Brady has won a SB without BB, but BB hasn't won a SB without Brady. 

[SunsetBengal]

(02-10-2023, 09:57 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: That's my point, Brady has won a SB without BB, but BB hasn't won a SB without Brady. 

One anomaly doesn't change the entire notion that great coaches have much history in turning around poor teams.  Weather by designing a great game plan, creating a winning culture that players all buy into, or being a supreme talent evaluator and finding the right players to fit their system, good coaching is what makes the difference between winning and losing in the NFL. 

[SladeX]

(02-05-2023, 05:04 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I am struggling to understand these complaints.  Like most of you seem to know football and our team in particular, thus you know tat Burrow can change the play at anytime and he can throw to whomever he wants to... we have no idea that these long passes were the initial play call or that those deep receivers were primary on those plays.

It is beyond silly to suggest that Zach absolutely called the play and demanded who Joe should throw the ball to, it is very amateurish.  If you want to complain about plays in which Burrow goes deep to the one WR that ran the deep route, and you have zero idea what was sent in from the sideline, then you should add Burrow to your complaint as well, not just Zac.  Because that is how our offense works.  

You can add me to the list of people you don’t understand, then. I’m not calling for his head, or for a change at OC necessarily, or even having Joe give up his autonomy, except, except in THIS situation, 3rd and 3, 4th QTR, Zac has to run a running play or high percentage pass that eats clock AND nets a 1st down, and furthermore as the HC he has to assert himself and say “You WILL run this play”. Take a shot on 2nd and short, sure. 2x in a row was a BIG mistake.

GEEZ some of you get sooo defensive. Even great coaches make mistakes. I hope he learns from it. I was upset with him during the game so this isn’t 20 20 hindsight. Hopefully, in this case, the team’s hindsight is 20 20.

[casear2727]

(02-10-2023, 10:56 AM)SladeX Wrote: You can add me to the list of people you don’t understand, then. I’m not calling for his head, or for a change at OC necessarily, or even having Joe give up his autonomy, except, except in THIS situation, 3rd and 3, 4th QTR, Zac has to run a running play or high percentage pass that eats clock AND nets a 1st down, and furthermore as the HC he has to assert himself and say “You WILL run this play”. Take a shot on 2nd and short, sure. 2x in a row was a BIG mistake.

GEEZ some of you get sooo defensive. Even great coaches make mistakes. I hope he learns from it. I was upset with him during the game so this isn’t 20 20 hindsight. Hopefully, in this case, the team’s hindsight is 20 20.

The issue is that it is beyond odd with all we know to think Zac determines which receiver to which Joe will throw.  Not to mention we all know the freedom Joe has to change the play from run to pass to something totally different.  

I'm not a massive Zac protector but there are only so many plays that Joe wouldn't/couldn't change, such as a screen pass (of which we ran zero in the SB vs the worst team in defending the screen). Complain about Zac all you want but with the plays of which you are referring, you should include Burrow in that discussion. 

[Soonerpeace]

(02-10-2023, 10:56 AM)SladeX Wrote: You can add me to the list of people you don’t understand, then. I’m not calling for his head, or for a change at OC necessarily, or even having Joe give up his autonomy, except, except in THIS situation, 3rd and 3, 4th QTR, Zac has to run a running play or high percentage pass that eats clock AND nets a 1st down, and furthermore as the HC he has to assert himself and say “You WILL run this play”. Take a shot on 2nd and short, sure. 2x in a row was a BIG mistake.

GEEZ some of you get sooo defensive. Even great coaches make mistakes. I hope he learns from it. I was upset with him during the game so this isn’t 20 20 hindsight. Hopefully, in this case, the team’s hindsight is 20 20.

And how do you know they didn’t go over that in film study after the game? I’m willing to bet Zac didn’t get this far chunking long bombs on third and short. It’s common knowledge that Joe goes to Chase a lot more than it’s designed. It’s common knowledge early in the year they had to get Joe to buy in on a short controlled passing game because of the rush 3 drop 8. But run a running play on third and three? You lost me. With our success?

[NUGDUKWE]

(02-10-2023, 12:16 PM)casear2727 Wrote: The issue is that it is beyond odd with all we know to think Zac determines which receiver to which Joe will throw.  Not to mention we all know the freedom Joe has to change the play from run to pass to something totally different.  

I'm not a massive Zac protector but there are only so many plays that Joe wouldn't/couldn't change, such as a screen pass (of which we ran zero in the SB vs the worst team in defending the screen). Complain about Zac all you want but with the plays of which you are referring, you should include Burrow in that discussion. 

I know the conversation has taking turns. But I really started the thread more for the situational mistakes. It's tough judging plays because we don't know all the breakdowns that could've happened. But Zacs use of timeouts sucked in the game. We could've won or gone to overtime alone with different timeout decisions. I also think he's really struggled in short yardage plays this year. Overall I think the offense could've and or should've been better this year. I like Zac and think he's a good head coach. I just wonder if we could be a freaking juggernaut with someone else calling the plays. 

[casear2727]

(02-10-2023, 02:03 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I know the conversation has taking turns. But I really started the thread more for the situational mistakes. It's tough judging plays because we don't know all the breakdowns that could've happened. But Zacs use of timeouts sucked in the game. We could've won or gone to overtime alone with different timeout decisions. I also think he's really struggled in short yardage plays this year. Overall I think the offense could've and or should've been better this year. I like Zac and think he's a good head coach. I just wonder if we could be a freaking juggernaut with someone else calling the plays. 

Our struggles in short yardage is pathetic....

[Soonerpeace]

(02-10-2023, 02:35 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Our struggles in short yardage is pathetic....

Yet #3 in third down conversion %