Volson to RT? Hear me out...

[*ochocincos*]

(02-18-2023, 11:08 AM)Synric Wrote: I get you wanted to highlight a couple of interior guys and I agree I would rather take a guy like John Michael Schmitz than any of the later day 1 or day 2 tackles  but Volson's below average foot speed would be likely be bad on the outside and why he moved inside in the NFL. Although I did watch Matthew Bergeron a couple of days ago and I came away impressed.

It might be bad on the outside, but people thought Carman needed to transition inside due to his lack of athleticism and speed to handle speed guys outside, and he showed that he's actually better outside than inside.


Volson's probably just going to be meh at best whether he's at OG or RT, so maybe RT would work.
If it's easier to find an upgrade at LG than RT this offseason, I wouldn't be opposed to trying the idea.
With that said, there needs to be a Plan B if Volson can't make the transition.

[*Synric*]

(02-21-2023, 11:56 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It might be bad on the outside, but people thought Carman needed to transition inside due to his lack of athleticism and speed to handle speed guys outside, and he showed that he's actually better outside than inside.


Volson's probably just going to be meh at best whether he's at OG or RT, so maybe RT would work.
If it's easier to find an upgrade at LG than RT this offseason, I wouldn't be opposed to trying the idea.
With that said, there needs to be a Plan B if Volson can't make the transition.

Difference is Volson is athletically limited while Jackson Carman had weight and conditioning issues. Carman is at like 328 now if he shows up at 345 like he did to start his Junior season at Clemson I bet he will struggle on the edge lol.

PS That's also one of my worries for Darnell Wright.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-21-2023, 11:56 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It might be bad on the outside, but people thought Carman needed to transition inside due to his lack of athleticism and speed to handle speed guys outside, and he showed that he's actually better outside than inside.


Volson's probably just going to be meh at best whether he's at OG or RT, so maybe RT would work.
If it's easier to find an upgrade at LG than RT this offseason, I wouldn't be opposed to trying the idea.
With that said, there needs to be a Plan B if Volson can't make the transition.

Absolutely.  I could see a draft pick and Volson competing for the RT spot and another draft pick getting the LG spot.  We just have to hope they really nail these picks.  

[*ochocincos*]

(02-21-2023, 12:55 PM)Synric Wrote: Difference is Volson is athletically limited while Jackson Carman had weight and conditioning issues. Carman is at like 328 now if he shows up at 345 like he did to start his Junior season at Clemson I bet he will struggle on the edge lol.

PS That's also one of my worries for Darnell Wright.

I never realized Carman had gotten that big at one point. I guess I only ever went off his Combine weigh-in where he was under 320 lbs.
Even with Carman at a lower weight, I still do see that he isn't great against speed, which indicates there's still some athleticism limitations.

I feel like Pollack has conflicting ideologies and/or wants unicorns on the OL.
He says he wants mean maulers on the OL, but his scheme also demands a lot athletically.
Most OL don't have the ability to do both well. And if one can, they usually are considered 1st round picks.

[Whatever]

It's fair to look at all possible solutions, but this doesn't make a lot of sense when you really examine it.

We have 5 T's under contract for next year(Jonah, Collins, Carman, Adeniji, and Smith).  We have 2 G's(Cappa and Volson).  If you move Volson to RT, you have only 1 G and need to spend multiple draft picks or pick up multiple guys in FA.  You're creating depth issues at G and probably not fixing the RT problem, either.

After watching Cam Heyward beat Volson like a rented mule in both matchups last year, there's no way I'm trusting Volson to go against TJ Watt and Myles Garrett twice a year, either.  Kid will get slaughtered.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-22-2023, 11:30 AM)Whatever Wrote: It's fair to look at all possible solutions, but this doesn't make a lot of sense when you really examine it.

We have 5 T's under contract for next year(Jonah, Collins, Carman, Adeniji, and Smith).  We have 2 G's(Cappa and Volson).  If you move Volson to RT, you have only 1 G and need to spend multiple draft picks or pick up multiple guys in FA.  You're creating depth issues at G and probably not fixing the RT problem, either.

After watching Cam Heyward beat Volson like a rented mule in both matchups last year, there's no way I'm trusting Volson to go against TJ Watt and Myles Garrett twice a year, either.  Kid will get slaughtered.

Really just 3 OTs on contract or next year.
Adeniji and Smith are just taking up space and need to be released.
Adeniji is who he is at this point. It's been 3 full seasons.
Smith has now been through 2 full seasons and hasn't been able to earn the right to play over the likes of Adeniji.

So the Bengals need (at least) one OT to improve the depth, if anything.

If Volson can be bumped to OT, the Bengals can go after two new OGs instead of going after 1 OG and 1 OT.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-18-2023, 10:52 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am sure people's first reaction to any mention of Volson being moved from his LG position is bound to bring some venom.  Hear me out:

Volson has exceptional length.  He played RT more than any other position at NDSU.  He showed how quickly he could adapt to playing LG and had a really good rookie season.  He has probably added 10 pounds or so since joining the Bengals, putting him at 6'7" and 325 lbs.  He has nearly 34" arms as well and huge 10.5" mitts.

So, now you are asking...."Who is going to be the LG?".  Well, here are a couple guys that project to be available early in the 2nd round that look like really good prospects:

Rank
36
Steve Avila
Steve Avila
TCU · IOL · Senior (RS)
Avila is a physically imposing guard prospect with quick feet and power. In pass protection, he is quick out of his stance, chops his feet and delivers a strong two-hand punch. He anchors easily and looks for work when he's uncovered. He is very aware and has a nasty streak. In the run game, he runs his feet on contact and drives opponents off the line of scrimmage. He does a good job staying attached to blocks. If he loses his hand placement, he is quick to replace and recover. He is sudden as a puller and can unload when he stays on a single track. He has some issues when he has to adjust and redirect his feet in space. Overall, I love the size and temperament Avila possesses. He's going to be a solid starting guard right away at the next level.

Rank
37
O'Cyrus Torrence
O'Cyrus Torrence
Florida · IOL · Senior
Torrence is a massive offensive guard with ideal instincts and play strength. In pass protection, he can bend his knees and play with balance. He has an immediate anchor and provides plenty of space for his QB to climb up into the pocket. He has strong hands to latch and control. He is very aware versus twists and stunts. In the run game, he can create movement with defenders over his nose and has surprising quickness to reach and cut off foes. He is quick to the second level, but he struggles to redirect and adjust in space. That should improve if he can drop 10-to-15 pounds. Teams that want to run downhill and create a firm interior in the pass game will really appreciate Torrence.

This could allow the Bengals to acquire some extra draft capital by trading out of the first round and choose one of these guys in the 2nd round.  

I am just spit balling, but I really like the idea of giving him a shot at RT, his natural position.  Thoughts?

I like the thought SHRacer. Could be the move needed for all we know. Volson is a good pass protector and has those long 
arms needed there. Really like Avila everytime I watched TCU, him and their Center who I forget his name right now. Torrence
might fit our Gap scheme we run as it sounds he is physical same as Avila and Volson. The versatility of Volson should be in all
our thoughts when talking about our OL and like you said RT is his natural spot from college.

Volson's athleticism is still questionable but he can still pancake dudes and is consistent technically once he figures things out.

[Whatever]

(02-22-2023, 12:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Really just 3 OTs on contract or next year.
Adeniji and Smith are just taking up space and need to be released.
Adeniji is who he is at this point. It's been 3 full seasons.
Smith has now been through 2 full seasons and hasn't been able to earn the right to play over the likes of Adeniji.

So the Bengals need (at least) one OT to improve the depth, if anything.

If Volson can be bumped to OT, the Bengals can go after two new OGs instead of going after 1 OG and 1 OT.

Adeniji played like garbage in the AFCCG.  However, he allowed no sacks during the regular season.  He actually graded better at RT than Volson did at LG.  How does moving Volson to RT improve depth there?  I'm not enamored with the guy, because he seems to fold in huge games.  However, he's a guy you can plug in at that spot for a few games during the regular season and be ok.

Smith was a known project when he was drafted.  2 years is way early to give up on a Day 3 project, especially at OT.  Sacrifices may need to be made to get us over the top, and if the axe falls on him, that's fine.  It needs to be for a definite upgrade, though.

I don't see how anyone can look at how Volson played last year and think it's likely he can make the switch and be even a decent RT.  Instead of letting him develop at G, we"d move him to T.  Then, when he sucks, people will be screaming for him to be cut and he'll be another wasted pick.

I'd much rather go into the draft with the freedom to draft a G or T if they're the best player on my board than go in definitely needing 2 G's.  

[*ochocincos*]

(02-22-2023, 04:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: Adeniji played like garbage in the AFCCG.  However, he allowed no sacks during the regular season.  He actually graded better at RT than Volson did at LG.  How does moving Volson to RT improve depth there?  I'm not enamored with the guy, because he seems to fold in huge games.  However, he's a guy you can plug in at that spot for a few games during the regular season and be ok.

Smith was a known project when he was drafted.  2 years is way early to give up on a Day 3 project, especially at OT.  Sacrifices may need to be made to get us over the top, and if the axe falls on him, that's fine.  It needs to be for a definite upgrade, though.

I don't see how anyone can look at how Volson played last year and think it's likely he can make the switch and be even a decent RT.  Instead of letting him develop at G, we"d move him to T.  Then, when he sucks, people will be screaming for him to be cut and he'll be another wasted pick.

I'd much rather go into the draft with the freedom to draft a G or T if they're the best player on my board than go in definitely needing 2 G's.  

Adeniji's pass blocking is worse than Volson's.

Volson's PFF pass blocking:
regular season - 52.9
postseason - 54.0

Adeniji's PFF pass blocking:
regular season - 48.4
postseason - 29.8

Let's look at their total pressures allowed:
Volson reg+post = 38+5 = 43 (865 PB snaps)
Adeniji reg+post = 8+15 = 23 (259 PB snaps)

If Adeniji had the same number of PB snaps as Volson, he would be projected to have allowed 76 total pressures over 865 PB snaps.

Even if just looking at total sacks allowed, you have:
Volson - 5 sacks in 865 snaps
Adeniji - 4 sacks in 259 snaps

So yes, Adeniji was (far) worse than Volson in pass protection

[Whatever]

(02-22-2023, 06:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Adeniji's pass blocking is worse than Volson's.

Volson's PFF pass blocking:
regular season - 52.9
postseason - 54.0

Adeniji's PFF pass blocking:
regular season - 48.4
postseason - 29.8

Let's look at their total pressures allowed:
Volson reg+post = 38+5 = 43 (865 PB snaps)
Adeniji reg+post = 8+15 = 23 (259 PB snaps)

If Adeniji had the same number of PB snaps as Volson, he would be projected to have allowed 76 total pressures over 865 PB snaps.

Even if just looking at total sacks allowed, you have:
Volson - 5 sacks in 865 snaps
Adeniji - 4 sacks in 259 snaps

So yes, Adeniji was (far) worse than Volson in pass protection

If T's gave up sacks and pressures at the same rate as G's, you would have a point.  However, they don't, so this is an apples to oranges comparison. 

If you specifically want to talk pass pro, Volson gave up the 5th most sacks allowed by a G last year.  This discussion is basically about taking one of the worst G's in the league in pass pro, making him switch sides, moving him out to T where he will be isolated with elite pass rushers a far greater percentage of the time, and expecting him to somehow show an improvement.  It simply isn't realistic.  

[SunsetBengal]

(02-22-2023, 07:40 PM)Whatever Wrote: This discussion is basically about taking one of the worst G's in the league in pass pro, making him switch sides, moving him out to T   

Perhaps you missed the first couple of sentences in the OP, where it clearly states that Volson played the majority of his college snaps at RT.

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-22-2023, 07:40 PM)Whatever Wrote: If T's gave up sacks and pressures at the same rate as G's, you would have a point.  However, they don't, so this is an apples to oranges comparison. 

If you specifically want to talk pass pro, Volson gave up the 5th most sacks allowed by a G last year.  This discussion is basically about taking one of the worst G's in the league in pass pro, making him switch sides, moving him out to T where he will be isolated with elite pass rushers a far greater percentage of the time, and expecting him to somehow show an improvement.  It simply isn't realistic.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-23-2023, 12:26 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote:

Whatever Wrote:[url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Volson-to-RT-Hear-me-out?pid=1334859#pid1334859][/url]If T's gave up sacks and pressures at the same rate as G's, you would have a point.  However, they don't, so this is an apples to oranges comparison. 



If you specifically want to talk pass pro, Volson gave up the 5th most sacks allowed by a G last year.  This discussion is basically about taking one of the worst G's in the league in pass pro, making him switch sides, moving him out to T where he will be isolated with elite pass rushers a far greater percentage of the time, and expecting him to somehow show an improvement.  It simply isn't realistic.  




This guy has been on my ignore list for some time, but since you commented, I can see his comments and respond.  


Your statement about 5th most sacks given up by a guard is irrelevant.  It doesn't factor things like who played the entire season and the most snaps, nor does if factor the competition.  Remember, I think 3 of those sacks were his first NFL start against Heyword.  But, hey, don't let facts get in the way of your crapping on Volson.


AGAIN, he was a RT the majority of his time in college.  Carman struggled in transitioning to guard in the NFL as well, despite a better "pedigree".  Then, due to injury, he played pretty damn well in his FIRST NFL STARTS at LT.  In the playoffs no less.  This is Carman, who's work ethic and drive has been questioned from day 1.  Not Volson, who eats, breathes, and sleeps ball.  


If it isn't realistic, how do you explain Carman playing better at LT than at RG?  Small sample size?  Pretty good competition and he held up very well. 


My suggestion is that he be given a look.  We know what Smith and Adeniji are and it isn't good.  Enough fricking projects of taking this guy and making him in to something else because that is where he will fit better in the NFL.  Volson was a beast at RT.  


Here is his senior season at NDSU, with almost all snaps at RT:  883 snaps.  ZERO sacks.  ONE hit.  PFF 88.4 run blocking, 84.5 pass blocking.  There were 560 run blocking snaps and 323 pass blocking snaps.  He played a grand total of 19 snaps at NDSU at LG.  


Let's also not forget that Williams gave up 13 sacks this year, and although I will give him some leniency for his injuries, he wasn't exactly a big help next to Volson.  Heck, in his two games at LT, even Carman rated 5 points ahead of Jonah on pass blocking.


Starting to see my point now?  It wouldn't stunt Volson's development to give him a look at RT.  He could be a diamond in the rough.  Or it could not work at all, but we know the guy's work ethic, team-first attitude, and he has the tools.  Just because he played at NDSU doesn't mean he isn't capable.  Jerry Rice played his college ball at Mississippi Valley State University.  

[SunsetBengal]

What is likely most impressive about Volson's ability to win and hold the starting LG job as a rookie, is when you consider that he came from a non-FBS school and played for an offense that was overwhelmingly run heavy.

In 15 games in 2021 NDSU attempted a total of 257 passes (27.4% out of 935 plays). Sure, Volson took some lumps early on as he caught up to the speed and complexities of the NFL game. Then, he grew into the role, and even showed some times of dominance. If this guy improves on the same trajectory that he did as a rookie, he will likely be a star in the NFL.

I would have no problem with Volson getting a look at RT this offseason. However that does create a void at the LG spot, again. Does the team really want to shuffle multiple positions again, or would they rather keep the interior OL in tact with Volson, Karras and Cappa? Conventional logic says that it's easier to fix one position than two.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-22-2023, 07:40 PM)Whatever Wrote: If T's gave up sacks and pressures at the same rate as G's, you would have a point.  However, they don't, so this is an apples to oranges comparison. 

If you specifically want to talk pass pro, Volson gave up the 5th most sacks allowed by a G last year.  This discussion is basically about taking one of the worst G's in the league in pass pro, making him switch sides, moving him out to T where he will be isolated with elite pass rushers a far greater percentage of the time, and expecting him to somehow show an improvement.  It simply isn't realistic.  

Do I think Volson will be a better RT than OG? No, I don't.
I think he'd be serviceable at best, which is what he is at OG.
Do I think he's better than Adeniji regardless where he plays? Yes.

[Whatever]

(02-23-2023, 09:09 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Whatever Wrote:[url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Volson-to-RT-Hear-me-out?pid=1334859#pid1334859][/url]If T's gave up sacks and pressures at the same rate as G's, you would have a point.  However, they don't, so this is an apples to oranges comparison. 



If you specifically want to talk pass pro, Volson gave up the 5th most sacks allowed by a G last year.  This discussion is basically about taking one of the worst G's in the league in pass pro, making him switch sides, moving him out to T where he will be isolated with elite pass rushers a far greater percentage of the time, and expecting him to somehow show an improvement.  It simply isn't realistic.  




This guy has been on my ignore list for some time, but since you commented, I can see his comments and respond.  


Your statement about 5th most sacks given up by a guard is irrelevant.  It doesn't factor things like who played the entire season and the most snaps, nor does if factor the competition.  Remember, I think 3 of those sacks were his first NFL start against Heyword.  But, hey, don't let facts get in the way of your crapping on Volson.


AGAIN, he was a RT the majority of his time in college.  Carman struggled in transitioning to guard in the NFL as well, despite a better "pedigree".  Then, due to injury, he played pretty damn well in his FIRST NFL STARTS at LT.  In the playoffs no less.  This is Carman, who's work ethic and drive has been questioned from day 1.  Not Volson, who eats, breathes, and sleeps ball.  


If it isn't realistic, how do you explain Carman playing better at LT than at RG?  Small sample size?  Pretty good competition and he held up very well. 


My suggestion is that he be given a look.  We know what Smith and Adeniji are and it isn't good.  Enough fricking projects of taking this guy and making him in to something else because that is where he will fit better in the NFL.  Volson was a beast at RT.  


Here is his senior season at NDSU, with almost all snaps at RT:  883 snaps.  ZERO sacks.  ONE hit.  PFF 88.4 run blocking, 84.5 pass blocking.  There were 560 run blocking snaps and 323 pass blocking snaps.  He played a grand total of 19 snaps at NDSU at LG.  


Let's also not forget that Williams gave up 13 sacks this year, and although I will give him some leniency for his injuries, he wasn't exactly a big help next to Volson.  Heck, in his two games at LT, even Carman rated 5 points ahead of Jonah on pass blocking.


Starting to see my point now?  It wouldn't stunt Volson's development to give him a look at RT.  He could be a diamond in the rough.  Or it could not work at all, but we know the guy's work ethic, team-first attitude, and he has the tools.  Just because he played at NDSU doesn't mean he isn't capable.  Jerry Rice played his college ball at Mississippi Valley State University.  

Heyward had one sack against Volson in Week 1.  He also had one in the Week 11 rematch.  It seems like more because he generated a ton of pressure and practically lived in the Bengals ' backfield at Volson's expense in both meetings.

What's funny is Carman actually graded better in the half season he played at G as a rookie than Volson did last year.  Carman also didn't allow a sack as a rookie.  Even at G, Carman at least kept Joe Burrow upright.  Volson, for all his work ethic and living and breathing football, could not.  He was one of the worst G's in the league in pass pro.  There's no good reason think one of the worst G's in the league in pass pro will be able to successfully transition to T in the NFL.  The fact that he played RT in college and could only muster a 6th/7th round draft grade beating up on future insurance salesmen in the Missouri Valley Conference in an offense that runs the ball almost 2/3 of the time doesn't inspire optimism.

I'm not opposed to drafting a G if the board falls that way.  I have serious reservations about moving Volson and putting ourselves in a position where we HAVE to draft a G early regardless of how the board falls.  Even if we do take a G early, I'd much rather he compete with a guy with experience to hedge our bets, especially given our track record of drafting OL.

[Gdale_Bengal]

Remember guys, our tackles has to block Myles Garret somehow.

[casear2727]

(02-23-2023, 12:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Do I think Volson will be a better RT than OG? No, I don't.
I think he'd be serviceable at best, which is what he is at OG.
Do I think he's better than Adeniji regardless where he plays? Yes.

I think you would do better than Adeniji.....

The kid only plays decent at LT and those were limited snaps. This is the last season on his contract.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-24-2023, 08:53 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I think you would do better than Adeniji.....

The kid only plays decent at LT and those were limited snaps. This is the last season on his contract.

Adeniji has realized his full potential.  Having a prospect rating of 5.96 when he came out, his projection was to be an average backup or special teamer, which is what he is.  During his time with the team, the Bengals suffered injuries that allowed him opportunities to develop, unfortunately for us his ceiling was lower than what we were hoping for. 

I think that it's time for the team to rotate the stock on depth on OL, as well as draft a highly graded T prospect.  There is a different dynamic and vibe in the OL room with Karras and Cappa on board, and perhaps some fresh OL talent might just have a chance to get off to a good start now? 

[casear2727]

(02-24-2023, 10:13 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Adeniji has realized his full potential.  Having a prospect rating of 5.96 when he came out, his projection was to be an average backup or special teamer, which is what he is.  During his time with the team, the Bengals suffered injuries that allowed him opportunities to develop, unfortunately for us his ceiling was lower than what we were hoping for. 

I think that it's time for the team to rotate the stock on depth on OL, as well as draft a highly graded T prospect.  There is a different dynamic and vibe in the OL room with Karras and Cappa on board, and perhaps some fresh OL talent might just have a chance to get off to a good start now? 

That would make too much sense...