DJ Reader gone after this season

[Housh]

(05-06-2023, 07:37 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: What would you define as a premium position?

WR, QB, tackle, d line. Linebacker, corner.

[Frank Booth]

(05-06-2023, 01:47 PM)Housh Wrote: WR, QB, tackle, d line. Linebacker, corner.

So on defense, everything but safety lol

[Clark W Griswold]

(05-06-2023, 01:47 PM)Housh Wrote: WR, QB, tackle, d line. Linebacker, corner.

Unless he’s a pass rushing outside linebacker then no. ILB positions are the RBs of defense.

QB, OT, Edge (pass rushing DE or OLB), WR and CB are your premium positions in todays NFL. Basically the positions that affect the passing game the most.

[Frank Booth]

(05-06-2023, 02:02 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: Unless he’s a pass rushing outside linebacker then no. ILB positions are the RBs of defense.

QB, OT, Edge (pass rushing DE or OLB), WR and CB are your premium positions in todays NFL.  Basically the positions that affect the passing game the most.

I'd say on defense, the D-line unit are the most premium positions because it affects both the passing and run game to high degrees

[casear2727]

(05-06-2023, 09:07 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: There were 4 interior defenders that had "elite" overall grades in 2022:  In order:  Chris Jones, Dexter Lawrence, Aaron Donald, and Quinnen Williams.  DJ Reader was rated #6 overall, with an overall grade of 85.  DJ also had a pass rush rating of 84.1, the same as Quinnen Williams.  It isn't that he doesn't offer a pass rush, but he prevents the QB from stepping up and that helps the outside rush get home.  He may not have gaudy sack stats but he is a very highly rated interior defensive lineman. 

Dexter was also rated just a 68.6 in the NFL in 2021, while Reader was still in the high 70s.  Dexter is a beast, no doubt, but it does feel a bit like he turned it on for his contract year, while DJ has been the model of consistency.

I don't like the Hubbard vs. Parsons analogy because they don't play the same position.  Parsons has incredible versatility and is one of the best defensive players overall while I see Hubbard as mid-tier.  DJ is far from mid-tier, and Lawrence isn't head and shoulders above the likes of Jones, Donald, and Williams. 

DJ doesn't have the pressures or the sacks and those get the big money.

I used Sam (great und defender) and Micah (great pass defender) to simply make a point that the value in run defense is far behind that of pass rush.  I love DJ and hope we can keep him. 

[phil413]

(05-06-2023, 07:56 PM)casear2727 Wrote: DJ doesn't have the pressures or the sacks and those get the big money.

I used Sam (great und defender) and Micah (great pass defender) to simply make a point that the value in run defense is far behind that of pass rush.  I love DJ and hope we can keep him. 

We gave him big money knowing this.  It only takes one team starving for a difference making NT even if it means giving guaranteed money past 30.  I wanted a one year extension while pulling money forward, but even DJ knows someone will justify giving him a solid 3 yrs deal. 

[Sled21]

DO you guys lay awake at night thinking of things to be depressed about? DJ is a big reason teams can't run on us effectively, and the organization know that. I expect he will get his next contract right here.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-06-2023, 07:56 PM)casear2727 Wrote: DJ doesn't have the pressures or the sacks and those get the big money.

I used Sam (great und defender) and Micah (great pass defender) to simply make a point that the value in run defense is far behind that of pass rush.  I love DJ and hope we can keep him. 

He definitely has the pressures.  His PR grade was top 6 in the NFL for DTs.  That includes all 3Ts.  And he is one of the absolute best at run defense, a staple in the AFC North if you want to contend.

I guess I just see his value as higher than many.  

[007BengalsFan]

(05-07-2023, 05:41 PM)Sled21 Wrote: DO you guys lay awake at night thinking of things to be depressed about?  DJ is a big reason teams can't run on us effectively, and the organization know that. I expect he will get his next contract right here.

We have some fans with very short memories.  The Cleveland Halloween game on national TV where Cleveland ran it at will against us and just embarassed us because Reader was injured and not in the game to stop the run.  It was obvious how bad this D-line relies on Reader to stop or at least slow down these big rushing attacks.  If we let Reader get away, you will see more of those Cleveland games.

The Baltimore playoff game Reader was the one in the middle of the D-line taking on multiple guys so Baltimore doesnt get a big push.  This allowed Pratt to get in there and hold Huntley up while Wilson knocked the ball loose   If we dont have Reader, we lose the Baltimore playoff game.  Seriously, watch Reader on this play, Zeitler at RG angles in to hit Reader on Readers left shoulder, Linderbaum hits Reader on Readers right then goes low, Ben Power at LG is pushing in toward Reader helping Linderbaum.   Reader is the foundation of this defense and should be the #1 priority defensive extension even over Wilson.  https://youtu.be/zDnn0xylHKA?t=36

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-07-2023, 08:48 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: He definitely has the pressures.  His PR grade was top 6 in the NFL for DTs.  That includes all 3Ts.  And he is one of the absolute best at run defense, a staple in the AFC North if you want to contend.

I guess I just see his value as higher than many.  

Doesn't PFF grade based on if you "win" against your guy rather than if you actually affect the play in any way? Like if the play is the QB immediately rolling out to his right, but a DE "beats" the LT by getting past them quickly (but the LT doesn't care because he knows the play is going away from him) it's still considered a pass rushing "win" by the DE even if he didn't actually pressure the QB. 

I think the grade also misses probably the most important thing with Reader. The grade isn't accumulative, so say Reader has a (just throwing out a number) 80.0 pass rushing grade, and another guy has a 78.5 pass rushing grade. Reader only played 38.3% of the defensive snaps. If the other guy was just slightly worse graded, but did it over say... 65% of the snaps, isn't that immensely more valuable since that's 26.7% less of the defensive snaps that aren't being played by a significantly inferior backup?

Reader needs to stay healthy. 

He is a difference maker when he's playing, but has only played 1,246 defensive snaps as a Bengal in 3 years out of somewhere around 3,200 possible. That means way too many snaps played by his backup and that backup's backup. I can't imagine he will get more durable when he's in his 30s.

[casear2727]

(05-07-2023, 08:48 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: He definitely has the pressures.  His PR grade was top 6 in the NFL for DTs.  That includes all 3Ts.  And he is one of the absolute best at run defense, a staple in the AFC North if you want to contend.

I guess I just see his value as higher than many.  

I think it may be me overvaluing Dexter Lawrence.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-07-2023, 09:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Doesn't PFF grade based on if you "win" against your guy rather than if you actually affect the play in any way? Like if the play is the QB immediately rolling out to his right, but a DE "beats" the LT by getting past them quickly (but the LT doesn't care because he knows the play is going away from him) it's still considered a pass rushing "win" by the DE even if he didn't actually pressure the QB. 

I think the grade also misses probably the most important thing with Reader. The grade isn't accumulative, so say Reader has a (just throwing out a number) 80.0 pass rushing grade, and another guy has a 78.5 pass rushing grade. Reader only played 38.3% of the defensive snaps. If the other guy was just slightly worse graded, but did it over say... 65% of the snaps, isn't that immensely more valuable since that's 26.7% less of the defensive snaps that aren't being played by a significantly inferior backup?

Reader needs to stay healthy. 

He is a difference maker when he's playing, but has only played 1,246 defensive snaps as a Bengal in 3 years out of somewhere around 3,200 possible. That means way too many snaps played by his backup and that backup's backup. I can't imagine he will get more durable when he's in his 30s.

Agreed on his health, and maybe that will help the next contract be more affordable, but what you said about % of PR snaps can also be said in his favor for run defense snaps.  He changes the way teams attack on the ground.  I also think in his pass rushing by simply not being moved and closing the pocket directly in front of the QB helps the outside rush and 3T.

Like I said, I guess I just rank his worth as higher than most.  I also don't see a replacement for him anywhere on the roster.  

[TecmoBengals]

I think it is going to be hard to keep DJ. He's making significant contributions to a winning and playoff team. The league notices this sort of thing. Teams are going to offer him big dollars just like they did Bates, Bell, and Hurst.

I want the dude to remain a Bengal but realistically think he is going to earn himself a nice contract and it could be with another team.