FA TE Contracts were low across the board

[*ochocincos*]

I was in another thread that ended up talking about rookie Battle potentially making his way into some significant reps or possibly starter role this year.
I then starting wondering, "Had Bengals not invested $4 mill APY into Nick Scott and used that plus Irv Smith's $1.75 mill to put toward a better caliber TE, who would have been around that budget?"

It looks like Hurst signed both the highest overall amount and APY for all FA TEs this past offseason - 3 years for $21.75 mill ($7.25 mill APY)
Josh Oliver - 3 years, $21 mill ($7 mill APY)
Schultz - $6.25 mill (1 year only)
Then all other TEs were $4.5 mill APY or under.

Here are all the potential starters who signed just 1-year deals, and could thus be back on the market next year:
Schultz
Gesicki
Hooper
Tonyan
Smith

Unfortunately, what's done is done at this point when it comes to FA TEs, but next year looks to have a really good crop (age when they hit FA).
Guys who fit the preferred age for Bengals and I think could be fits offense-wise in bold.
Henry (29)
Engram (29)
Higbee (31)
Schultz (27)
Everett (29)
Hockenson (26)
Gesicki (28)
Fant (26)
Hooper (29)
Tonyan (29)
Kmet (25)
Smith (25) - If he plays well for Bengals, I'm ok keeping him

Thoughts on this?
Were you surprised to see FA TEs get pretty mediocre contracts overall?
Are there any of the names above that you really want Bengals to target next year?

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(06-05-2023, 10:59 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I was in another thread that ended up talking about rookie Battle potentially making his way into some significant reps or possibly starter role this year.
I then starting wondering, "Had Bengals not invested $4 mill APY into Nick Scott and used that plus Irv Smith's $1.75 mill to put toward a better caliber TE, who would have been around that budget?"

It looks like Hurst signed both the highest overall amount and APY for all FA TEs this past offseason - 3 years for $21.75 mill ($7.25 mill APY)
Josh Oliver - 3 years, $21 mill ($7 mill APY)
Schultz - $6.25 mill (1 year only)
Then all other TEs were $4.5 mill APY or under.

Here are all the potential starters who signed just 1-year deals, and could thus be back on the market next year:
Schultz
Gesicki
Hooper
Tonyan
Smith

Unfortunately, what's done is done at this point when it comes to FA TEs, but next year looks to have a really good crop (age when they hit FA).
Guys who fit the preferred age for Bengals and I think could be fits offense-wise in bold.
Henry (29)
Engram (29)
Higbee (31)
Schultz (27)
Everett (29)
Hockenson (26)
Gesicki (28)
Fant (26)
Hooper (29)
Tonyan (29)
Kmet (25)
Smith (25) - If he plays well for Bengals, I'm ok keeping him

Thoughts on this?
Were you surprised to see FA TEs get pretty mediocre contracts overall?
Are there any of the names above that you really want Bengals to target next year?

I do not see us spending significant $$$ on a TE in FA. Just, organizationally, I think that is a direction we do not want to go in. We are not going to spend big at TE, RB, OG, S, or LB while we absorb the cap increases for Burrow, Higgins, Wilson, & Chase. 

There may be exceptions. We paid Pratt decent money. Wilson likely, too. It is a puzzle, not absolutes. Depending on how other stuff breaks, maybe we spend more at sub premium positions. But I think a draft pick and/or bargain vet/ring chaser is more likely. Now, how high is the number we'd be willing to go? And for who, IDK? 

[*ochocincos*]

(06-05-2023, 01:28 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I do not see us spending significant $$$ on a TE in FA. Just, organizationally, I think that is a direction we do not want to go in. We are not going to spend big at TE, RB, OG, S, or LB while we absorb the cap increases for Burrow, Higgins, Wilson, & Chase. 

There may be exceptions. We paid Pratt decent money. Wilson likely, too. It is a puzzle, not absolutes. Depending on how other stuff breaks, maybe we spend more at sub premium positions. But I think a draft pick and/or bargain vet/ring chaser is more likely. Now, how high is the number we'd be willing to go? And for who, IDK? 

I would agree, but it depends on your definition of "significant money."

12 TEs make an average of $10+ mill APY

Another 4 make in the $8-9 mill range.
That's half the league's starting TEs basically.

So I wouldn't consider $6-7.5 mill range to be "significant money."
Plus, Boyd is very likely gone after this year and we don't know how Charlie Jones will do.
It could be possible we see a shift in the offense where the TE becomes the 3rd option in the offense after this season.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Might be a big reason we don't value TE much.

Just hoping Irv Smith Jr stays healthy for once with us. I think he should do well here, if he does and moves on and some of those
TE's you speak about could be on our radar next year. Hayden got overpaid by the Panthers and I loved the guy. Cannot overpay
though, not here with us having to pay so many proven players big money.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(06-09-2023, 12:01 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Might be a big reason we don't value TE much.

Just hoping Irv Smith Jr stays healthy for once with us. I think he should do well here, if he does and moves on and some of those
TE's you speak about could be on our radar next year. Hayden got overpaid by the Panthers and I loved the guy. Cannot overpay
though, not here with us having to pay so many proven players big money.

I think if Irv can stay healthy he will do as well as our guys the past 2 years myself.

[phil413]

(06-05-2023, 01:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I would agree, but it depends on your definition of "significant money."

12 TEs make an average of $10+ mill APY

Another 4 make in the $8-9 mill range.
That's half the league's starting TEs basically.

So I wouldn't consider $6-7.5 mill range to be "significant money."
Plus, Boyd is very likely gone after this year and we don't know how Charlie Jones will do.
It could be possible we see a shift in the offense where the TE becomes the 3rd option in the offense after this season.

I thought the same with Boyd pricing himself out, but they didn't raise a finger at a supposedly deep TE class.  Can't fault them with getting value round by round (possible starting safety, slot WR, ect..)  it just made too much sense to take a recieving TE in the mid rounds to groom on blocking behind Smith Jr. for a year and be that cheap 3rd receiving option. 

Instead, they may have found a niche in attracting the misfit toys that were replaced for different reasons.  Cincy is using their prestige to find value with the 3rd tier TEs with upside.  I wouldn't be shocked if they do it again, and if there are other needs they may not draft one high again.  If the young WRs pan out, we may see more 4 wide looks too.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-09-2023, 02:01 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I think if Irv can stay healthy he will do as well as our guys the past 2 years myself.

I think it can be argued we (or I at least) want to see a TE who isn't sub-500 yards.
I don't have confidence Smith could be that guy.
I think he's right there in that 350-450 range.

If the goal is to be around what the other guys have been, that might be fine.
But I want more.
TE has been underproductive/underutilized in the Taylor era.

[Housh]

I mean unless you are Kyle Pitts and can double as a WR or you are Kittle Kelce, Waller or another elite guy the position is easily sustainable with just any TE. Honestly if we went into the season with Sample as TE1, Wilcox and Asiasi it’s not like i would’ve labeled the season as over. I honestly wouldn’t have cared. We literally only need a TE that can get 5 yards on a 3rd and short. Uzomah and Hurst did that. Irv will most likely do that. But do you want to pay 10 plus million to a guy just to get a short yardage 3rd downs? This also explains why we didn’t draft Washington. The value at the pick just wasn’t there. We could literally sigh 3 undrafted TEs and they will probably be able to do everything we need.

[Luvnit2]

I was not surprised at all. Great 2023 TE draft class, so teams could get younger talent and pay a lot less plus have rights to them for a minimum of 3 years.

As for Smith, his signing is extremely low risk. 25 years old and makes peanuts compared to other TE's who start. The gamble for him is injury, but no team has 53 guys on their roster who have no risk.

Also, we have TE's like Wilcox still not signed, nit a star by any standard, but OK foe how ZT uses TE's in our offense. Bengals drafted 2 WR's that give us options for 4 WR sets in 2023 or at a minimum better options than we had in 2022 in case of injury to one of our top 3 WR's.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-09-2023, 02:01 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I think if Irv can stay healthy he will do as well as our guys the past 2 years myself.

I am thinking the same if Irv can stay healthy, but that is the question. Dude is young, 24 and is fast for a TE even if he is undersized.

He is strong after the catch, those middle TE screens could go for some big gains this year with Irv Smith Jr.

(06-09-2023, 10:10 AM)phil413 Wrote: I thought the same with Boyd pricing himself out, but they didn't raise a finger at a supposedly deep TE class.  Can't fault them with getting value round by round (possible starting safety, slot WR, ect..)  it just made too much sense to take a recieving TE in the mid rounds to groom on blocking behind Smith Jr. for a year and be that cheap 3rd receiving option. 

Instead, they may have found a niche in attracting the misfit toys that were replaced for different reasons.  Cincy is using their prestige to find value with the 3rd tier TEs with upside.  I wouldn't be shocked if they do it again, and if there are other needs they may not draft one high again.  If the young WRs pan out, we may see more 4 wide looks too.

I am sure we will see a lot more 4 WR sets with the additions of Chuck Sizzle and Iosivas and not adding a TE in the Draft.

Maybe we are waiting on a vet TE to be cut before we put Wilcox back on the roster? I don't know, I like Wilcox better than both 
Sample and Asiasi who are here.

(06-09-2023, 11:30 PM)Housh Wrote: I mean unless you are Kyle Pitts and can double as a WR or you are Kittle Kelce, Waller or another elite guy the position is easily sustainable with just any TE. Honestly if we went into the season with Sample as TE1, Wilcox and Asiasi it’s not like i would’ve labeled the season as over. I honestly wouldn’t have cared. We literally only need a TE that can get 5 yards on a 3rd and short. Uzomah and Hurst did that. Irv will most likely do that. But do you want to pay 10 plus million to a guy just to get a short yardage 3rd downs? This also explains why we didn’t draft Washington. The value at the pick just wasn’t there. We could literally sigh 3 undrafted TEs and they will probably be able to do everything we need.

Heard we really liked Kincaid, if that truly was the case, we are looking for a pass catching TE, not a blocking TE like in the past.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-09-2023, 11:30 PM)Housh Wrote: I mean unless you are Kyle Pitts and can double as a WR or you are Kittle Kelce, Waller or another elite guy the position is easily sustainable with just any TE. Honestly if we went into the season with Sample as TE1, Wilcox and Asiasi it’s not like i would’ve labeled the season as over. I honestly wouldn’t have cared. We literally only need a TE that can get 5 yards on a 3rd and short. Uzomah and Hurst did that. Irv will most likely do that. But do you want to pay 10 plus million to a guy just to get a short yardage 3rd downs? This also explains why we didn’t draft Washington. The value at the pick just wasn’t there. We could literally sigh 3 undrafted TEs and they will probably be able to do everything we need.

I don't think that's the take at all.

1) No TE in this FA class got even $8 mill APY.

2) I think people want to see more from a TE than just getting short yardage 3rd downs. I think they'd like to see some good YAC and/or deeper routes from time to time.

3) Irv Smith might be able to do what Hurst/Uzomah did, but there's rightfully a lot of skepticism with his health, and also no one wants to see Sample as a guy getting a significant amount of reps.

The narrative will change if Irv Smith can stay healthy and do what the coaches think he could do if given enough opportunity, but it's a "wait and see" approach from some fans (myself included) because of Smith's, Sample's, and Asiasi's resumes up to this point.

[Housh]

(06-11-2023, 02:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't think that's the take at all.

1) No TE in this FA class got even $8 mill APY.

2) I think people want to see more from a TE than just getting short yardage 3rd downs. I think they'd like to see some good YAC and/or deeper routes from time to time.

3) Irv Smith might be able to do what Hurst/Uzomah did, but there's rightfully a lot of skepticism with his health, and also no one wants to see Sample as a guy getting a significant amount of reps.

The narrative will change if Irv Smith can stay healthy and do what the coaches think he could do if given enough opportunity, but it's a "wait and see" approach from some fans (myself included) because of not Smith's, Sample's, and Asiasi's resumes up to this point.

I watched alot of Irv tape and he’s gonna be really good here after the catch. I’d challenge Zac to trust Irv with more routes than we had CJ and Hurst run. Irv can run corners, posts, seams all that.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-16-2023, 11:08 PM)Housh Wrote: I watched alot of Irv tape and he’s gonna be really good here after the catch. I’d challenge Zac to trust Irv with more routes than we had CJ and Hurst run. Irv can run corners, posts, seams all that.

I'm not doubting Smith's potential.
But there are reasons he's had under 100 receptions, under 1000 yards, and under 10 TDs in his 4 year career.
The primary reason is lack of availability.
The other big reason his first couple years was having Kyle Rudolph ahead of him, taking away opportunity.


Will Smith be able to handle the lion's share of targets at the TE position and (more importantly) be able to stay healthy for 13+ games this season?
Those are the worries some (myself included) have.

[*Go Cards*]

(06-19-2023, 11:55 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not doubting Smith's potential.
But there are reasons he's had under 100 receptions, under 1000 yards, and under 10 TDs in his 4 year career.
The primary reason is lack of availability.
The other big reason his first couple years was having Kyle Rudolph ahead of him, taking away opportunity.


Will Smith be able to handle the lion's share of targets at the TE position and (more importantly) be able to stay healthy for 13+ games this season?
Those are the worries some (myself included) have.

Will Smith could not even knock Chris Rock down when he badmouthed his wife, so I'm a lil worried about his blocking. 

But seriously I share your concern and am very worried about being so thin in the TE room along with Smth's injury history. 

Hopefully a TE is still added.

[Housh]

(06-20-2023, 02:22 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Will Smith could not even knock Chris Rock down when he badmouthed his wife, so I'm a lil worried about his blocking. 

But seriously I share your concern and am very worried about being so thin in the TE room along with Smth's injury history. 

Hopefully a TE is still added.

I am definitely acknowledging the room is light but we still aren’t near the worst TE room and for what we ask our TEs to do i don’t think we NEED a star.

We literally ask these dudes to block and get 4 yards if we need 3 yards

[*Go Cards*]

(06-23-2023, 06:38 PM)Housh Wrote: I am definitely acknowledging the room is light but we still aren’t near the worst TE room and for what we ask our TEs to do i don’t think we NEED a star.

We literally ask these dudes to block and get 4 yards if we need 3 yards

Curious as to where I said the Bengals needed a star TE ? Just am not comfortable with only Smith and Sample, especially with both being injury prone.

Would feel much better if they at least added Wilcox. Yet would be happy if they added a star TE personally

[*ochocincos*]

(06-23-2023, 06:38 PM)Housh Wrote: I am definitely acknowledging the room is light but we still aren’t near the worst TE room and for what we ask our TEs to do i don’t think we NEED a star.

We literally ask these dudes to block and get 4 yards if we need 3 yards

Who has a worse TE room?

[*Synric*]

(06-24-2023, 07:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Who has a worse TE room?

The Dolphins TE room is pretty bad.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-24-2023, 07:35 PM)Synric Wrote: The Dolphins TE room is pretty bad.

I'd argue it's about comparable to the Bengals.

Kroft has put up 400 yards before, whereas no one on the Bengals has. It's been 5 seasons though since he's done that.
Durham Smythe has put up over 350 yards while playing behind Gesicki.
I'd say it's fair to say, production-wise, Smith and Sample might be about on par with Kroft and Smythe.

Elijah Higgins, their 6th-rounder, had been pretty productive in college his last 2 years.
As a pure pass-catching TE, he might be able to make something of himself at some point in his career.


With all that said, yea I agree Dolphins is pretty bad, but I don't know if I would say it's definitively worse than the Bengals.
About the only thing that would make anyone think the Bengals have a better room is the hope that Irv Smith stays healthy and ascends to what they thought he could be after he took over TE1 duties from Rudolph prior to injuries happening.

[*Synric*]

(06-25-2023, 10:09 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd argue it's about comparable to the Bengals.

Kroft has put up 400 yards before, whereas no one on the Bengals has. It's been 5 seasons though since he's done that.
Durham Smythe has put up over 350 yards while playing behind Gesicki.
I'd say it's fair to say, production-wise, Smith and Sample might be about on par with Kroft and Smythe.

Elijah Higgins, their 6th-rounder, had been pretty productive in college his last 2 years.
As a pure pass-catching TE, he might be able to make something of himself at some point in his career.


With all that said, yea I agree Dolphins is pretty bad, but I don't know if I would say it's definitively worse than the Bengals.
About the only thing that would make anyone think the Bengals have a better room is the hope that Irv Smith stays healthy and ascends to what they thought he could be after he took over TE1 duties from Rudolph prior to injuries happening.

Irv Smith has the injury history but also talent... The Dolphins TE group doesnt have that lol. Durham Smythe was the starting TE in 2022 he was also the worst blocking TE in the league and not a good receiver either. Tyler Kroft is 30 and on his 4th team in 4 years. Elijah Higgins has never played TE... maybe they can do something there...


Both these teams rooms are very bad but Ill take a chance on Irv Smith rather than Smythe and Kroft lol.