Browns Bashing Joe

[Bronxbengal]

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/lists/browns-deshaun-watson-qb-rankings/

Very surprised no one saw this post from the Browns insider. Apparently the only reason Joe is good is because of Chase and Higgins can go get the ball. Joe is smart but no arm strength. F you Browns. Bulletin Board motivation for Joe to kick their butts come week one. Who Dey


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[ElkValleyBengal]

They ranked him #5. Not sure that's a bash.

They overrate Lamar a bit.

[KillerGoose]

The arm strength argument is just simply misguided. Burrow has plenty of arm strength to make the throws he needs to make. While it can be important, I would argue that arm strength is typically the most overrated trait for QBs. The best way to measure arm strength is ball velocity. If you pull any random throw out of an NFL game, it is likely to be in the 48-50 MPH range. These guys just don't have the need to rifle it in there very often, and all NFL QBs have the arm strength to throw harder than that. 

Burrow's max velocity that I found was 56 MPH. Out of the 100+ passes I watched of his, he only threw 55 MPH or harder twice. It just isn't needed. The vast majority of his throws were between 48-52 MPH. The same can be said for nearly every QB in the league. There are also traits that can hide a weak arm. Burrow does not have a weak arm, but he does have those traits - ball placement and anticipation. Some of Burrow's tightest throws were passes that clocked in sub-50 MPH. He just placed it in the perfect spot at the perfect time. 

Long rant, but I really hate docking a QB for a "weak" arm. It is just a tired, misguided argument at this point. 

[ElkValleyBengal]

(07-03-2023, 09:09 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: The arm strength argument is just simply misguided. Burrow has plenty of arm strength to make the throws he needs to make. While it can be important, I would argue that arm strength is typically the most overrated trait for QBs. The best way to measure arm strength is ball velocity. If you pull any random throw out of an NFL game, it is likely to be in the 48-50 MPH range. These guys just don't have the need to rifle it in there very often, and all NFL QBs have the arm strength to throw harder than that. 

Burrow's max velocity that I found was 56 MPH. Out of the 100+ passes I watched of his, he only threw 55 MPH or harder twice. It just isn't needed. The vast majority of his throws were between 48-52 MPH. The same can be said for nearly every QB in the league. There are also traits that can hide a weak arm. Burrow does not have a weak arm, but he does have those traits - ball placement and anticipation. Some of Burrow's tightest throws were passes that clocked in sub-50 MPH. He just placed it in the perfect spot at the perfect time. 

Long rant, but I really hate docking a QB for a "weak" arm. It is just a tired, misguided argument at this point. 

I believe that at one time arm strength was overrated generally, and it was rightfully called out.  The "West Coast" offense proliferated league-wide, which made it less of a priority.  But the "arm strength overrated" sentiment gained a life of its own, and I feel that now the pendulum was swung the other way.

It's not necessarily important for a guy to heave it 75 yards in shorts, but arm strength deficiency has no mask in certain scenarios.  There are often throws where a QB cannot set his feet because of the pass rush.  If a guy can't throw it off schedule (back foot, retreating, in the grasp, etc.) sufficiently, no amount of moxie or leadership is going to salvage that play.  You mentioned the velocity, which is the only real test of arm strength (initial velocity and release angle determine distance).  Occasionally there are throws where only fractions of a second will determine whether they arrive at their destination.  Being a competitor doesn't help much there.

Arm strength obviously isn't everything, and it isn't even the most important thing.  But everything else being equal, always take the guy with better arm strength.

[QueenCity]

You'd think the GOAT - Tom Brady and his "rocket arm" would kill these stupid opinions.

[KillerGoose]

(07-03-2023, 09:31 PM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: I believe that at one time arm strength was overrated generally, and it was rightfully called out.  The "West Coast" offense proliferated league-wide, which made it less of a priority.  But the "arm strength overrated" sentiment gained a life of its own, and I feel that now the pendulum was swung the other way.

It's not necessarily important for a guy to heave it 75 yards in shorts, but arm strength deficiency has no mask in certain scenarios.  There are often throws where a QB cannot set his feet because of the pass rush.  If a guy can't throw it off schedule (back foot, retreating, in the grasp, etc.) sufficiently, no amount of moxie or leadership is going to salvage that play.  You mentioned the velocity, which is the only real test of arm strength (initial velocity and release angle determine distance).  Occasionally there are throws where only fractions of a second will determine whether they arrive at their destination.  Being a competitor doesn't help much there.

Arm strength obviously isn't everything, and it isn't even the most important thing.  But everything else being equal, always take the guy with better arm strength.

For sure, if everything else is equal then take the differentiating factor. I think with modern offenses and even modern QBs (read mobile), arm strength just isn't as important. All of these guys can make all of the throws needed for the most part. You have your guys like Mahomes & Allen who can throw across their body to the opposite hash while on the run and it is an acceptable throw for them. For the most part, though, these guys don't need to have those kinds of arms. To be clear, I am not attempting to say "disregard arm strength", but more so that the vast majority of QBs (if not all of them) have enough arm strength to be successful in the league, so an argument to against/for a particular QB based solely on that trait is misguided IMO. It's a tough one to sell unless you believe that everything else is more or less equal. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-03-2023, 08:59 PM)Bronxbengal Wrote: https://brownswire.usatoday.com/lists/browns-deshaun-watson-qb-rankings/

Very surprised no one saw this post from the Browns insider.  Apparently the only reason Joe is good is because of Chase and Higgins can go get the ball.  Joe is smart but no arm strength.  F you Browns.  Bulletin Board motivation for Joe to kick their butts come week one.  Who Dey


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Who is Cory Kinnan and why should i give a shit about what he doesn't know about QBs?

[PDub80]

Browns reporter ranking Burrow @5 is pandering yo their readers. Nothing more. He wants Herbert.... who absolutely CRUMBLED in his first playoff game over Burrow? Herbert who couldn't even take a gifted tie to make the playoffs in 2022? Oooook.

- Jackson is grossly overrated and hasn't been relevant the past 2 seaons.

- Allen was cooked the last 2 post seasons and would have fallen to Burrow 2x last year.

- Mahomes is an absolute animal. We'll see how 2023 pans out between he & Joey B. Loving the rivalry.

[ElkValleyBengal]

(07-03-2023, 10:15 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: For sure, if everything else is equal then take the differentiating factor. I think with modern offenses and even modern QBs (read mobile), arm strength just isn't as important. All of these guys can make all of the throws needed for the most part. You have your guys like Mahomes & Allen who can throw across their body to the opposite hash while on the run and it is an acceptable throw for them. For the most part, though, these guys don't need to have those kinds of arms. To be clear, I am not attempting to say "disregard arm strength", but more so that the vast majority of QBs (if not all of them) have enough arm strength to be successful in the league, so an argument to against/for a particular QB based solely on that trait is misguided IMO. It's a tough one to sell unless you believe that everything else is more or less equal. 

I should have included the caveat that my post wasn't directed at you, as you seem to be roughly on the same wavelength as I on the topic.  But it does seem to me a lot of people dismiss arm strength out of hand these days.  A play which comes to mind is the Packers-Lions game a few seasons ago when Rodgers heaved that Hail Mary at the end of the game.  All but a handful teams would have been out of luck on that play unless a receiver could have caught the pass and then ran it in.  

I think Burrow has sufficient arm strength, especially considering he has all the other tools.  I do believe it has increased a bit, and can still progress.  His knowledge of the game can cover for a lot.  His anticipation in the passing game means he can routinely release the ball on time and not necessarily need the extra juice required if he is late in recognizing.

[*michaelsean*]

Allen, Jackson and Herbert ahead of Burrow is a joke. Especially when you consider the 2021 line and the 2022 playoff line.

But at least under that column we have the standard Browns off-season columns. Worst to First and AFC North Sleeper.

[CJD]

Quote:The arm talent is not there, and an offense largely based on shot plays is due for some regression in 2023.

That's what they said after 2021 too haha

[coachmcneil71]

(07-03-2023, 09:44 PM)QueenCity Wrote: You'd think the GOAT - Tom Brady and his "rocket arm" would kill these stupid opinions.

My thoughts as well. Nick Foles doesn't have a cannon for an arm, but he has a SB win and ring. Joe Montana didn't have a cannon either.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-04-2023, 11:12 AM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: My thoughts as well. Nick Foles doesn't have a cannon for an arm, but he has a SB win and ring. Joe Montana didn't have a cannon either.

Despite the long list of Superbowl wining QBs that had less than stellar physical traits, some still refuse to believe that being a great QB in the NFL is more about the brain than the body.

[Garrus]

I feel like lately I am seeing a lot of talk about Burrow being overrated on social media. Not that takes on social media matters, I just wonder where that is coming from. I have seen 2 videos shared on twitter just yesterday explaining how Allen and Herbert are better than Burrow, and they use their volume stats to prove it, while insisting Burrow is carried by his defense. While I do think the defense has been a big factor in their playoff success, I don't see how you can say Burrow has been carried by them.

Just an interesting development I have noticed.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-05-2023, 09:22 AM)Garrus Wrote: I feel like lately I am seeing a lot of talk about Burrow being overrated on social media. Not that takes on social media matters, I just wonder where that is coming from. I have seen 2 videos shared on twitter just yesterday explaining how Allen and Herbert are better than Burrow, and they use their volume stats to prove it, while insisting Burrow is carried by his defense. While I do think the defense has been a big factor in their playoff success, I don't see how you can say Burrow has been carried by them.

Just an interesting development I have noticed.

Haven't the Bills had a top ranked defense for the last couple of years?  And enough with Herbert.  Cutler had a ridiculous arm and didn't have great success.  How about Jeff George?  Stafford has incredible arm strength and had success one year with a bought team.

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(07-03-2023, 09:09 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: The arm strength argument is just simply misguided. Burrow has plenty of arm strength to make the throws he needs to make. While it can be important, I would argue that arm strength is typically the most overrated trait for QBs. The best way to measure arm strength is ball velocity. If you pull any random throw out of an NFL game, it is likely to be in the 48-50 MPH range. These guys just don't have the need to rifle it in there very often, and all NFL QBs have the arm strength to throw harder than that. 

Burrow's max velocity that I found was 56 MPH. Out of the 100+ passes I watched of his, he only threw 55 MPH or harder twice. It just isn't needed. The vast majority of his throws were between 48-52 MPH. The same can be said for nearly every QB in the league. There are also traits that can hide a weak arm. Burrow does not have a weak arm, but he does have those traits - ball placement and anticipation. Some of Burrow's tightest throws were passes that clocked in sub-50 MPH. He just placed it in the perfect spot at the perfect time. 

Long rant, but I really hate docking a QB for a "weak" arm. It is just a tired, misguided argument at this point. 

Ol David Klingler had the strongest arm I've ever seen..............I'll take great accuracy & average strength.

[Bronxbengal]

(07-05-2023, 09:22 AM)Garrus Wrote: I feel like lately I am seeing a lot of talk about Burrow being overrated on social media. Not that takes on social media matters, I just wonder where that is coming from. I have seen 2 videos shared on twitter just yesterday explaining how Allen and Herbert are better than Burrow, and they use their volume stats to prove it, while insisting Burrow is carried by his defense. While I do think the defense has been a big factor in their playoff success, I don't see how you can say Burrow has been carried by them.

Just an interesting development I have noticed.

This talk should be getting underneath his skin understanding how competitive he is. I hope the talk is motivating him to kick ass and take names later. Matter of fact I hope this talk will put a fire to underneath rest of teams ass.

BTW, my brown friends have been bad mouthing our beloved Bengals thinking their team is better and deserving to be in the top echelon of NFL teams. Hard to not laugh when they make these dumb comments since they haven’t been to the conference championship for decades. Brown fans are not the smartest.


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[grampahol]

Let's go find all the one legged guys in Cleveland and go on an ass kicking contest..

[WildfireMicro]

I have an uncle who's a Browns fan and he's insufferable sometimes.

I personally love the way QBs like Burrow play and would rather have that then a scrambling QB anyday.

[Essex Johnson]

(07-03-2023, 10:38 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Browns reporter ranking Burrow @5 is pandering yo their readers. Nothing more. He wants Herbert.... who absolutely CRUMBLED in his first playoff game over Burrow? Herbert who couldn't even take a gifted tie to make the playoffs in 2022? Oooook.

- Jackson is grossly overrated and hasn't been relevant the past 2 seaons.

- Allen was cooked the last 2 post seasons and would have fallen to Burrow 2x last year.

- Mahomes is an absolute animal. We'll see how 2023 pans out between he & Joey B. Loving the rivalry.

Burrow should be 2nd/3rd.. splitting hairs with Allen, but Herbert has shown he is a top tier QB  so in top 5 to 7.  and Lamar has played with less talent than any of those QBs.. hurt does not mean overrated, his starting record is 45-16 in the season, no body touches that winning %%