Corey Dillon miffed over perceived RoH snub

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(07-20-2023, 10:39 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re my boy, Truck but Larkin as the greatest Red of all time is absolutely wild.

Far and away the best defensive SS in team history, HoFer, multiple GG winner, IIRC, he won the SS *9* times and a 30/30 season.

Sorry you disagree, but Larkin would have started at SS on every team in the league for almost his entire career (his first two and final 4, of 19 years, so 13 of them), save for ARod and Nomar's peak years and that's a fact.

Even at Rose's best, he would've started for maybe half the teams in the league at whatever position he played that respective year.

(07-20-2023, 10:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Major League records:

Most career at-bats – 14,053
Most career plate appearances – 15,890
Most career hits – 4,256
Most career singles – 3,215
Most career times on base – 5,929
Most career games played – 3,562
Most career winning games played – 1,972
Only player to play at least 500 games at five different positions – 1B (939), LF (671), 3B (634), 2B (628), RF (595)
Most career runs by a switch hitter – 2,165
Most career doubles by a switch hitter – 746
Most career walks by a switch hitter – 1,566
Most career total bases by a switch hitter – 5,752
Most seasons of 200 or more hits – 10 (shared)
Most consecutive seasons of 100 or more hits – 23
Most consecutive seasons with 600 or more at-bats – 13 (1968–1980) (shared)
Most seasons with 600 at-bats – 17
Most seasons with 150 or more games played – 17
Most seasons with 100 or more games played – 23

Not even Top 50 your facts and stats say?

65th in career WAR, after playing 254 MORE games in his career than the next closest person Carl Yastrzemski and 518 more games than the next closest person in hits (Cobb).

What does Rose have over Yaz to show for it? More runs, hits, doubles and triples. All stats that go up, the more you play.

That's it. Yaz obliterates him in everything, even walks!

The ONLY PEOPLE on the planet that would take a prime Pete Rose over Yaz any time, are homers that are Reds fans, that's it

I'm truly baffled that with all of the hard data and metrics in 2023, people are still arguing about Rose being a top 50 player, with counting stats that he solely achieved due to how much he played; I mean really, how do you play THAT long and you're still 65th in WAR? 

Absolutely baffling.

Kinda like how Gordie Howe was NEVER considered the best hockey player ever, 'cause he played for 9,000 years.

[*bfine32*]

(07-20-2023, 11:24 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Far and away the best defensive SS in team history, HoFer, multiple GG winner, IIRC, he won the SS *9* times and a 30/30 season.

Sorry you disagree, but Larkin would have started at SS on every team in the league for almost his entire career (his first two and final 4, of 19 years, so 13 of them), save for ARod and Nomar's peak years and that's a fact.

Even at Rose's best, he would've started for maybe half the teams in the league at whatever position he played that respective year.

65th in career WAR, after playing 254 MORE games in his career than the next closest person Carl Yastrzemski and 518 more games than the next closest person in hits (Cobb).

What does Rose have over Yaz to show for it? More runs, hits, doubles and triples. All stats that go up, the more you play.

That's it. Yaz obliterates him in everything, even walks!

The ONLY PEOPLE on the planet that would take a prime Pete Rose over Yaz any time, are homers that are Reds fans, that's it

I'm truly baffled that with all of the hard data and metrics in 2023, people are still arguing about Rose being a top 50 player, with counting stats that he solely achieved due to how much he played; I mean really, how do you play THAT long and you're still 65th in WAR? 

Absolutely baffling.

Kinda like how Gordie Howe was NEVER considered the best hockey player ever, 'cause he played for 9,000 years.

So longevity doesn't count? I suppose you have Andrew Luck up there with Tom Brady cause if Andrew Luck had played 20 years....

The dude played "that long" and still has a lifetime BA 18 points higher than Yaz. So is lifetime BA also something Yaz "obliterates" him in?

How about fielding, versatility, and base running? Does Yaz "obliterate" him in all those too? 

The bolded let's me know the has run its course.

[Bengalbug]

(07-20-2023, 11:24 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Far and away the best defensive SS in team history, HoFer, multiple GG winner, IIRC, he won the SS *9* times and a 30/30 season.

Sorry you disagree, but Larkin would have started at SS on every team in the league for almost his entire career (his first two and final 4, of 19 years, so 13 of them), save for ARod and Nomar's peak years and that's a fact.

Even at Rose's best, he would've started for maybe half the teams in the league at whatever position he played that respective year.

65th in career WAR, after playing 254 MORE games in his career than the next closest person Carl Yastrzemski and 518 more games than the next closest person in hits (Cobb).

What does Rose have over Yaz to show for it? More runs, hits, doubles and triples. All stats that go up, the more you play.

That's it. Yaz obliterates him in everything, even walks!

The ONLY PEOPLE on the planet that would take a prime Pete Rose over Yaz any time, are homers that are Reds fans, that's it

I'm truly baffled that with all of the hard data and metrics in 2023, people are still arguing about Rose being a top 50 player, with counting stats that he solely achieved due to how much he played; I mean really, how do you play THAT long and you're still 65th in WAR? 

Absolutely baffling.

Kinda like how Gordie Howe was NEVER considered the best hockey player ever, 'cause he played for 9,000 years.

You do realize that Cal Ripken Jr and Barry Larkin had significant crossover during their careers (approximately 15 years).

Barry was great, but saying he starts for every team is a huge insult to Cal Ripken Jr.

[PDub80]

(07-20-2023, 11:24 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Far and away the best defensive SS in team history, HoFer, multiple GG winner, IIRC, he won the SS *9* times and a 30/30 season.

Sorry you disagree, but Larkin would have started at SS on every team in the league for almost his entire career (his first two and final 4, of 19 years, so 13 of them), save for ARod and Nomar's peak years and that's a fact.

Even at Rose's best, he would've started for maybe half the teams in the league at whatever position he played that respective year.

65th in career WAR, after playing 254 MORE games in his career than the next closest person Carl Yastrzemski and 518 more games than the next closest person in hits (Cobb).

What does Rose have over Yaz to show for it? More runs, hits, doubles and triples. All stats that go up, the more you play.

That's it. Yaz obliterates him in everything, even walks!

The ONLY PEOPLE on the planet that would take a prime Pete Rose over Yaz any time, are homers that are Reds fans, that's it

I'm truly baffled that with all of the hard data and metrics in 2023, people are still arguing about Rose being a top 50 player, with counting stats that he solely achieved due to how much he played; I mean really, how do you play THAT long and you're still 65th in WAR? 

Absolutely baffling.

Kinda like how Gordie Howe was NEVER considered the best hockey player ever, 'cause he played for 9,000 years.

By this rationale, Johnny Bench would be the greatest Red of all time by a mile, but not many people would select him as that.

Barry Larkin was a fine player. A top 10 Short Stop ever, sure, but that position that doesn't really have a lot of historical badasses at it. I can think of 2 or 3. SS is the Nickel corner of baseball. No one remembers any SSs' that were monsters at the plate save for 2 or 3 and 1 of those guys juiced hard. Gold Gloves are cute and all, but SS is a weird group.

[Bengalbug]

(07-21-2023, 07:56 AM)PDub80 Wrote: By this rationale, Johnny Bench would be the greatest Red of all time by a mile, but not many people would select him as that.

Barry Larkin was a fine player. A top 10 Short Stop ever, sure, but that position that doesn't really have a lot of historical badasses at it. I can think of 2 or 3. SS is the Nickel corner of baseball. No one remembers any SSs' that were monsters at the plate save for 2 or 3 and 1 of those guys juiced hard. Gold Gloves are cute and all, but SS is a weird group.

Ernie banks, Jeter, arod, cal ripken, Honus Wagner (way back in the way back). Then you’re right. Ozzie smith was a wizard with what he did well, but wasn’t in the same category as those mentioned above.

[Sled21]

(07-20-2023, 10:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I remember hearing about a report on Rose early in his career. Scout said he gets from Home to 1st in 4.5 seconds. Folks were not overly impressed because the average time is about 4.3. What's the rest of the story...?

One thing Rose did was out-hustle everyone else. He himself stated he had to work harder because he did not have the natural talent others had.

[*bfine32*]

(07-21-2023, 09:35 AM)Sled21 Wrote: One thing Rose did was out-hustle everyone else. He himself stated he had to work harder because he did not have the natural talent others had.

I get we're going off on a tangent, but it is the off-season.

When we say "best' it can be defined by so many intangibles. Besides all the MLB records he holds he did so many other things that IMO put him as best. The 4.5 seconds from home to first was his average time after getting walked. The dude invented the headfirst slide, played anywhere the team needed him, blew up a catcher to score in an All-Star game, whipped Bud Harrelson's, and so many other things. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-20-2023, 08:27 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well Chad had his transgressions also, as a bengal of rhe three I felt  JB conducted himself on field better and would vote him over dillion 

People that think like you kind of crack me up. The NFL is littered with bad eggs and no one is above reproach. That's why everyone needs to stop basing this off of off-field stuff because everyone has some. Then you want to try and say "well...he was this and he was that" to justify the fact that you just don't like CD and you won't vote for him.

That's a total 100% bullshit move. Judge players by what they did on the field and how deserving they are there and stop trying to play Judge Judy.

**** it. I'm out of this discussion. Too many fans don't know their asshole from a hole in the ground and giving them any kind of vote for anything is a terrible idea in the first place. 

Whatev

[*jason*]

(07-21-2023, 11:23 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: People that think like you kind of crack me up. The NFL is littered with bad eggs and no one is above reproach. That's why everyone needs to stop basing this off of off-field stuff because everyone has some. Then you want to try and say "well...he was this and he was that" to justify the fact that you just don't like CD and you won't vote for him.

That's a total 100% bullshit move. Judge players by what they did on the field and how deserving they are there and stop trying to play Judge Judy.

**** it. I'm out of this discussion. Too many fans don't know their asshole from a hole in the ground and giving them any kind of vote for anything is a terrible idea in the first place. 

Whatev

I'm sure plenty of teams don't have their multiple record breaking, all time leading rusher in their rings of honor.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Johnny Bench is the greatest Red, and it isn't even close. He is the best ever at his position. Period. Morgan & Rose clearly round out the medal places. I'd put Larkin in the group with Frank Robinson to round out the top 5. Though Votto has a pretty good case.

Perez, Seaver, Rixey, Rousch.

I find it odd someone is using WAR to argue Larkin over Rose, when Rose's WAR is higher than Barry's. Rose is the Red's leader in WAR, OWAR, Games, AB, PA, Runs, Hits, TBs, 2Bs, singles, runs created, EBHs, times on base, CS, & outs. Larkin leads in power speed.

As for defense, Larkin was good. But the best defensive SS in Red's history is Dave Concepcion. Or, if you want to go WAAAY back, George Wright.

[PDub80]

(07-21-2023, 11:42 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Johnny Bench is the greatest Red, and it isn't even close. He is the best ever at his position. Period. Morgan & Rose clearly round out the medal places. I'd put Larkin in the group with Frank Robinson to round out the top 5. Though Votto has a pretty good case.

Perez, Seaver, Rixey, Rousch.

I find it odd someone is using WAR to argue Larkin over Rose, when Rose's WAR is higher than Barry's. Rose is the Red's leader in WAR, OWAR, Games, AB, PA, Runs, Hits, TBs, 2Bs, singles, runs created, EBHs, times on base, CS, & outs. Larkin leads in power speed.

As for defense, Larkin was good. But the best defensive SS in Red's history is Dave Concepcion. Or, if you want to go WAAAY back, George Wright.

I've always felt that of modern Reds (1990 through now) that Chris Sabo is a grossly under appreciated guy. He was a MONSTER in the 90 playoff run and a fine player. Injuries ultimately killed his trajectory. Oh, and... uhhhhhh, that corked bat thing. But, ummmm, we don't have to talk about that.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-21-2023, 11:53 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I've always felt that of modern Reds (1990 through now) that Chris Sabo is a grossly under appreciated guy. He was a MONSTER in the 90 playoff run and a fine player. Injuries ultimately killed his trajectory. Oh, and... uhhhhhh, that corked bat thing. But, ummmm, we don't have to talk about that.

My favorite player as a kid, and the only Reds jersey I own.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-21-2023, 11:53 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I've always felt that of modern Reds (1990 through now) that Chris Sabo is a grossly under appreciated guy. He was a MONSTER in the 90 playoff run and a fine player. Injuries ultimately killed his trajectory. Oh, and... uhhhhhh, that corked bat thing. But, ummmm, we don't have to talk about that.

I went to the bar at Hofbrau to order a beer and looked to my side after placing my order, and lo and behold, there sat Chris Sabo. I chatted him up, never letting on like I knew who he was (no glasses). They brought my beer, and after telling him to have a good evening, I said "by the way, loved your play for the Reds, that 1990 season is one of my best teenage sports memories". He looked kinda shocked that I hadn't brought any of that up until then, or asked for an autograph or picture. He said "thanks man, and thanks for a normal conversation." He was trying to be low key, and I obliged him. Nice guy to talk with.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

As for top 50 all-time for Rose? I think that is dicey, but not outrageous.

Best ever:
C: Bench
1B: Gehrig
2B: Hornsby
3B: Schmidt
SS: Wagner
RF: Ruth
CF: Mays
LF: Williams
SP: W. Johnson
RP: Rivera

That's 10.

No-Brainer Top 50 = 8.
SP: Mathewson, Young, Alexander, Grove
CF: Cobb, Speaker
RF: Aaron
OF: Musial

Near No-Brainer = 5.
SP: Koufax, Seaver, Maddux, R. Johnson
2B: Collins

Reasonably No-Brainer = 9.
SP: Nichols
1B: Pujols
2B: Lajoie
3B: Matthews
SS: Ripken
RF: F. Robinson, Ott
CF: Mantle
LF: Henderson

We are uo to 32. I think we have a gaggle of guys I'd out in contention for the last 18 spots:

SP: Spahn, P. Martinez, Feller, Keefe, Gibson, Ryan, Paige
C: Gibson, Berra
1B: Anson, Foxx
2B: Morgan, J. Robinson, Carew, Gehringer
3B: Brett, B. Robinson
SS: O. Smith
RF: Clemente, Kaline
CF: Griffey Jr, DiMaggio
LF: Yaz
UT: Rose

That's 24. You could easily add some more pitching, PED guys (Bonds), and some guys playing now (Trout, etc), and more Negro League players.

[*bfine32*]

(07-21-2023, 12:32 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: As for top 50 all-time for Rose? I think that is dicey, but not outrageous.

Best ever:
C: Bench
1B: Gehrig
2B: Hornsby
3B: Schmidt
SS: Wagner
RF: Ruth
CF: Mays
LF: Williams
SP: W. Johnson
RP: Rivera

That's 10.

No-Brainer Top 50 = 8.
SP: Mathewson, Young, Alexander, Grove
CF: Cobb, Speaker
RF: Aaron
OF: Musial

Near No-Brainer = 5.
SP: Koufax, Seaver, Maddux, R. Johnson
2B: Collins

Reasonably No-Brainer = 9.
SP: Nichols
1B: Pujols
2B: Lajoie
3B: Matthews
SS: Ripken
RF: F. Robinson, Ott
CF: Mantle
LF: Henderson

We are uo to 32. I think we have a gaggle of guys I'd out in contention for the last 18 spots:

SP: Spahn, P. Martinez, Feller, Keefe, Gibson, Ryan, Paige
C: Gibson, Berra
1B: Anson, Foxx
2B: Morgan, J. Robinson, Carew, Gehringer
3B: Brett, B. Robinson  
SS: O. Smith
RF: Clemente, Kaline
CF: Griffey Jr, DiMaggio
LF: Yaz
UT: Rose

That's 24. You could easily add some more pitching, PED guys (Bonds), and some guys playing now (Trout, etc), and more Negro League players.

2 things about your list:
The fact you cannot assign one position to Pete supports my stance. 

A double checked it to make sure I hadn't overlooked Tony Gwynn and awarded it the merit it deserves. 

[Goalpost]

(07-21-2023, 12:32 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote:  
 

You could easily add some more pitching, 

Steve Carlton comes to mind

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-21-2023, 10:38 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I get we're going off on a tangent, but it is the off-season.

When we say "best' it can be defined by so many intangibles. Besides all the MLB records he holds he did so many other things that IMO put him as best. The 4.5 seconds from home to first was his average time after getting walked. The dude invented the headfirst slide, played anywhere the team needed him, blew up a catcher to score in an All-Star game, whipped Bud Harrelson's, and so many other things. 

Right 

One thing you have to consider when talking about Pete Rose. And many today never actually saw him play. He went 1,000 miles hour, full tilt, balls to the wall every play, no matter what.

In the dictionary beside the word gamer should be Pete's picture. Didn't matter if the Reds were losing 12 -0 in the 8th inning, he went just as hard. Bench described him on one talk show something like: Pete would run through a house on fire wearing a suit of gasoline to play baseball.

He wasn't the fastest guy on the field, to say the least. Couldn't jump the highest, hit the ball the farthest, just wasn't that great an athlete. But he gave 1,000% all game every game. Along with excellent hand eye coordination. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-21-2023, 11:42 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Johnny Bench is the greatest Red, and it isn't even close. He is the best ever at his position. Period. Morgan & Rose clearly round out the medal places. I'd put Larkin in the group with Frank Robinson to round out the top 5. Though Votto has a pretty good case.

Perez, Seaver, Rixey, Rousch.

I find it odd someone is using WAR to argue Larkin over Rose, when Rose's WAR is higher than Barry's. Rose is the Red's leader in WAR, OWAR, Games, AB, PA, Runs, Hits, TBs, 2Bs, singles, runs created, EBHs, times on base, CS, & outs. Larkin leads in power speed.

As for defense, Larkin was good. But the best defensive SS in Red's history is Dave Concepcion. Or, if you want to go WAAAY back, George Wright.

My man!

Favorite Red of all time.

[*jason*]

Corey belongs in the ring of honor ahead of every baseball player that's been listed 8n this thread.

[t3r3e3]

(07-21-2023, 12:47 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: You do realize that Cal Ripken Jr and Barry Larkin had significant crossover during their careers (approximately 15 years).

Barry was great, but saying he starts for every team is a huge insult to Cal Ripken Jr.

Larkin was a better fielder with more range than Ripken, and a much better base runner. Barry would have had another 5 or 6 gold gloves if Ozzie Smith wasn’t surfing off of past glory and theatrical backflips.

Larkin and Ripken’s hitting is mostly a wash, but Ripken had more power.

https://stathead.com/baseball/player-comparison.cgi?player_id2=ripkeca01&type=b&player_id1=larkiba01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=br&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=larkiba01