OL Pressures After 2 weeks

[Au165]

(09-19-2023, 05:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What in particular don't you like about PFF grades?
Is it because you don't know the specifics on what was graded?
Or you just don't agree with the graders' opinions that someone is doing well/poor?

It's very well understood in the league that PFF is making guesses on plays, and frankly they don't know much better than any former mid level college football player knows when watching the all 22. There are countless times players come out and laugh and say "I did exactly what I was asked to do here and was graded poorly" who would know better than the people being told to do something. Even differences in how some coaches teach technique gets guys graded lower than they should be. Watch a good analyst break things down, they often say things about what they think or what it appears, and even then players will reply "No, we were giving this look and I had this check". If these analysts who are much better than the average grader at PFF can't get it right why are we to believe that a business where the average fan can't second guess them are right? This doesn't get into certain biases that exist where certain players and teams get the benefit of the doubt when their analysts have no clue and others don't.

At the end of the day it's a fun thing for fans but even the "every team uses PFF" marketing gimmick is a bit misleading. Teams all subscribe to their advanced metrics which don't rely on subjective grading but rather things like situational ball placement, field targeting, etc. No team in the NFL gives weight, or cares about the player grades. In reality, the only time anyone in the league cares is when Agents use good grades for arguing better contracts and that is often met with chuckles.

I haven't paid a ton of attention to the O line this year as I have been so disgusted with the playcalling that it's not worth the rewatch. Generally speaking there seems to be more time, but also Burrow is less mobile and escape so it's hard to really tell what's going on. Run blocking has felt better overall in the limited looks we are giving. I would venture to say the line is better and Burrow is worse so we feel kind of stuck in the mud. Orlando Brown for instance is known to get beat on the back half of the arch, a health Burrow knows that and steps and slides and it's not an issue but a hobbled Burrow gets clocked by a guy beating him around the top. 

It's complex, but this is just my yearly rant that PFF is a barely educated guess at what is happening and should be taken with a grain of salt.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-19-2023, 05:33 PM)ochocincoftw Wrote: Graders opinions.

I remember this from last year.
Just a quick search. I see this quite often.

“Patrick Mahomes had a stellar Week 1 and was a runaway top performer to open the NFL season by most accounts. Pretty much everyone agreed that the Kansas City Chiefs quarterback had a standout performance. Everyone except those doing the film grading at Pro Football Focus.

PFF is an excellent site that grades every player each week during the NFL season based on film reviews. Mahomes went 30/39 for 360 yards, five touchdowns and no interceptions in a 44-21 win over the Arizona Cardinals on Sunday. He played great, but PFF rated him as having the 8th-best performance of Week 1”

I get that.

When you have stats to look at, PFF grades probably matter less.

I don't really look at PFF grades on things that I can put stats to.
I put more stock in PFF on things that can't be easily measured, such as OL performance or TE/RB blocking.
We (or I) don't have another site that measures/grades that, and I'm not about to go watch hours of games to make my own opinion from what I see. Especially as I'm not sure exactly what to look for.

[Joelist]

PFF and QBR both have big issues.

QBR is used by no one but ESPN and it lost its luster pretty quick with nonsense like claiming Terrell Pryor was a better QB than Drew Brees or Tim Tebow better than Aaron Rodgers....

PFF scores are basically secret sauce nonsense. I agree with the player quoted upthread - coaches ignore PFF and grade the players themselves based on the situation and their assignment. PFF has become the "Geekbench" of the NFL alas....

[KillerGoose]

(09-19-2023, 06:28 PM)Joelist Wrote: PFF and QBR both have big issues.

QBR is used by no one but ESPN and it lost its luster pretty quick with nonsense like claiming Terrell Pryor was a better QB than Drew Brees or Tim Tebow better than Aaron Rodgers....

PFF scores are basically secret sauce nonsense. I agree with the player quoted upthread - coaches ignore PFF and grade the players themselves based on the situation and their assignment. PFF has become the "Geekbench" of the NFL alas....

I think you got these backwards a little bit. We know how PFF grades are formulated, but QBR is has proprietary formula that is a "secret sauce". It's based on EPA to some level, I think. 

[thompson19osu]

Fact is doesn't matter where you put Jonah he sucks. Short arms and he is soft/weak. Can't wait to see his ass gone next year.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-19-2023, 07:05 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think you got these backwards a little bit. We know how PFF grades are formulated, but QBR is has proprietary formula that is a "secret sauce". It's based on EPA to some level, I think. 

We know the general formulation of the grades, but the pure breakdown of why, for example, a player got X grade on Snap 1 and Y grade on Snap 2 is not explained. So in a way, it's somewhat of a mystery.

[Housh]

(09-19-2023, 07:09 PM)thompson19osu Wrote: Fact is doesn't matter where you put Jonah he sucks. Short arms and he is soft/weak. Can't wait to see his ass gone next year.

15 more games lol

[casear2727]

One example of how the PFF grades work is on the Clowney sack. Jonah pushed him 9 yards up field, however the interior was pushed back 6 yards from the LOS and Burrow had no where to go and Clowney sacked him. Whose fault is that?

Jonah essentially did his job, but the 3 in the middle were bull rushed back into the pocket, even though their guy didn't touch Joe they failed as much, if not more than Jonah.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-18-2023, 01:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Brown:
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 4
PFF pass block rating - 72.1 (B grade)

Volson:
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 4
PFF pass block rating - 27.1 (F grade)

Karras:
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 2
PFF pass block rating - 62.3 (C grade)

Cappa:
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 3
PFF pass block rating - 71.3 (B grade)

Williams:
Sacks - 2
Pressures - 5
PFF pass block rating - 53.1 (D grade)


What say you?
Do these reflect your eye test of how the OL is performing?

Did see both Jonah and Cordell get beat a lot against the Stains. Cordell needs to step it up, not really surprised with Jonah 
struggling at RT against the players he has faced. 

[Housh]

(09-19-2023, 08:36 PM)casear2727 Wrote: One example of how the PFF grades work is on the Clowney sack. Jonah pushed him 9 yards up field, however the interior was pushed back 6 yards from the LOS and Burrow had no where to go and Clowney sacked him. Whose fault is that?

Jonah essentially did his job, but the 3 in the middle were bull rushed back into the pocket, even though their guy didn't touch Joe they failed as much, if not more than Jonah.

This is why any system that produces a grade in a sports convo is dumb. Most these grading scales don’t account for stuff like that


But admittedly i thought PFF did

[Frank Booth]

Pollack's o-line techinques have been regularly dumped on by other o-linemen and o-line coaches on social media. He also stinks

Same with Volson

[jj22]

Anyone dig up what it was the first two games last season

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-18-2023, 01:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Brown:
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 4
PFF pass block rating - 72.1 (B grade)

Volson:
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 4
PFF pass block rating - 27.1 (F grade)

Karras:
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 2
PFF pass block rating - 62.3 (C grade)

Cappa:
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 3
PFF pass block rating - 71.3 (B grade)

Williams:
Sacks - 2
Pressures - 5
PFF pass block rating - 53.1 (D grade)


What say you?
Do these reflect your eye test of how the OL is performing?

I honestly haven't watched Volson enough to really know, but that grade is turrible. Jonah looks about right to me.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-19-2023, 08:36 PM)casear2727 Wrote: One example of how the PFF grades work is on the Clowney sack.  Jonah pushed him 9 yards up field, however the interior was pushed back 6 yards from the LOS and Burrow had no where to go and Clowney sacked him.  Whose fault is that?

Jonah essentially did his job, but the 3 in the middle were bull rushed back into the pocket, even though their guy didn't touch Joe they failed as much, if not more than Jonah.

Very true. Jonah worked him outside to form a pocket, and the pocket got shoved in Joe's face. 

[007BengalsFan]

(09-19-2023, 08:36 PM)casear2727 Wrote: One example of how the PFF grades work is on the Clowney sack.  Jonah pushed him 9 yards up field, however the interior was pushed back 6 yards from the LOS and Burrow had no where to go and Clowney sacked him.  Whose fault is that?

Jonah essentially did his job, but the 3 in the middle were bull rushed back into the pocket, even though their guy didn't touch Joe they failed as much, if not more than Jonah.

Jonah is to blame for that sack.  Jonah got beat to the outside and Clowney was right behind Burrow giving Burrow nowhere to run.  Look at the rest of this offensive line everyone was locked up.  Cappa does a great job switching and picking up Ojabo.  The only person to get beat on the offensive line that play was Jonah.

https://youtu.be/P_4CkIx6uwE?t=562




... and although this video highlights Clowney you can still see the QB hits and hurries Burrow gets from Jonah's side.  I dont know how many of these PFF counted but there are several where Burrow just has to get rid of the ball quick because Jonah gets beat.

https://youtu.be/zc8wjW6rXKc?t=24

https://youtu.be/zc8wjW6rXKc?t=31

https://youtu.be/zc8wjW6rXKc?t=102

https://youtu.be/zc8wjW6rXKc?t=119

https://youtu.be/zc8wjW6rXKc?t=170

https://youtu.be/zc8wjW6rXKc?t=201

[casear2727]

(09-19-2023, 10:09 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Jonah is to blame for that sack.  Jonah got beat to the outside and Clowney was right behind Burrow giving Burrow nowhere to run.  Look at the rest of this offensive line everyone was locked up.  Cappa does a great job switching and picking up Ojabo.  The only person to get beat on the offensive line that play was Jonah.

https://youtu.be/P_4CkIx6uwE?t=562




... and although this video highlights Clowney you can still see the QB hits and hurries Burrow gets from Jonah's side.  I dont know how many of these PFF counted but there are several where Burrow just has to get rid of the ball quick because Jonah gets beat.

"Jonah is to blame for that sack.  Jonah got beat to the outside and Clowney was right behind Burrow giving Burrow nowhere to run."

I'm old enough to remember an old football phrase, "step up in the pocket".  I get that many Bengals fans are not aware of this terminology due to us having no pocket for so many years.  But, this play exemplifies that notion. 

Jonah wasnt great, but did plenty for Joe to "step up in the pocket" and make a throw.  The interior oline should NOT be pushed back 6 yards into the QB in under 2 seconds.  I dont really care about your Jonah full game analysis, we all know about him, but on this play the QB should have been able to step into a pocket and make a throw.

[WeezyBengal]

(09-18-2023, 02:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: With Burrow's contract now factored in and Collins off the books, Bengals are projected to be sitting at ~$72 mill in cap currently for next year.
That's currently 6th highest available cap.

With that said, there are some starting spots that could potentially need to be filled with upcoming FAs:
NT (DJ Reader)
WR2 (Tee Higgins)
WR3 (Tyler Boyd)
RT (Jonah Williams)
TE (Irv Smith)
CB1 (Chidobe Awuzie)

Handful of backup spots to worry about too:
TE2 (Sample)
NT2 (Tupou)
LB3 (ADG)
LB4 (Bailey)

Higgins getting tagged will be over $20 mill. I believe around $25 mill, IIRC.
That would take a big chunk of the available cap.

It's likely DJ Turner is set to take Awuzie's spot after this year and start opposite CTB.

Bengals could need 2, maybe 3, new pass catchers.
Will Charlie Jones be ready to take over slot duties if/when Boyd leaves?

It's expected (at least by me) that we'll see Boyd and (at least) two of Higgins/Reader/Williams depart in FA.
I think the Bengals can probably get two immediate starters out of the draft, three if they're lucky.
They might have to look to the cheaper FA market to backfill some spots with a competent veteran, even if the veteran isn't quite as good as the person they are replacing.

They REALLY need to dip into the FA pool this off-season and get a proven inside DL...especially with Reader gone. They aren't good enough as is with him and they are for sure going to suck next year without him. 

[WeezyBengal]

(09-18-2023, 03:09 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: Murphy doesn’t look athletic at all. Hope that changes with experience.
If Hendrickson doesn’t get pressure then they have zero pass rush. He was non-existent yesterday and so was the pass rush.

They badly need an athletic edge rusher but those guys are hard to find (duh).

If they lose vs Rams then just rest Burrow until he’s 100% and tank the season. No matter where they end up drafting they need to take nothing but linemen on both sides of the ball.

How does he not look athletic? His RAS score was off the charts. Like top 50 for a DL EVER. If anyhing his athleticism is the one thing that he does have. 

What he's missing is pass rush moves and a plan. 

[WeezyBengal]

(09-18-2023, 04:04 PM)Joelist Wrote: It doesn't just seem stupid it IS stupid. PFF has done this before and it is a big reason few people take their scores seriously. They either "fanboy" some players with inflated scores or go on "vendetta" against players, never giving them good scores no matter what they do. 

There's a lot more to evaluation of offensive lineman than pressures and sacks given up. There's overall run blocking, pass blocking, penalties, etc.

PFF isn't bible, but it's a good evaluation tool. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it stupid.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-20-2023, 10:16 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: There's a lot more to evaluation of offensive lineman than pressures and sacks given up. There's overall run blocking, pass blocking, penalties, etc.

PFF isn't bible, but it's a good evaluation tool. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it stupid.

Related to that - I really do hate when people feel they have to comment about how dumb/useless PFF is whenever it's posted.
If someone doesn't like the grades, they should ignore the PFF part/post/thread.
Some people find it useful/enjoyable.