The effects of losing solid vets to FA.

[coachmcneil71]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. If it has, I apologize. Being here in the Florida panhandle I predominantly receive the NFC South, AFC East, and the occasional Jax game. You can bet that the NFC South is on every week. Ts, I've had the opportunity to watch Bates and Bell now more than once. Bates is balling! Bell isn't far behind. Both are contributing greatly to their new teams thus far. Perine is contributing about what we would expect. Hurst is doing Hurst things.

Point I'm trying to make is that losing those kind of locker room vets takes a toll in areas that don't always show up in the stats. I particularly think the loss of Bell and Bates shows. Not knocking Dax or Scott. Dax played great against the Rams. Losing those four players hurt the chemistry a little and losing that vet leadership is currently showing in certain areas of the team.

Not sure that this has been discussed enough.

[BurrowTheGoat]

Hurst is the only one we seem to be truly missing at the moment. Bell maybe. Bates im fine with letting him walk he wanted far too much money. When you are paying a QB and 1 possibly 2 WRs top of the market money you don't have the luxury of paying a safety 18m per year. Perine is an ok player but hes a RB they are very replaceable in theory. Time will tell if we replace Perine.

[BengalYankee]

(10-06-2023, 11:36 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. If it has, I apologize. Being here in the Florida panhandle I predominantly receive the NFC South, AFC East, and the occasional Jax game. You can bet that the NFC South is on every week. Ts, I've had the opportunity to watch Bates and Bell now more than once. Bates is balling! Bell isn't far behind. Both are contributing greatly to their new teams thus far. Perine is contributing about what we would expect. Hurst is doing Hurst things.

Point I'm trying to make is that losing those kind of locker room vets takes a toll in areas that don't always show up in the stats. I particularly think the loss of Bell and Bates shows. Not knocking Dax or Scott. Dax played great against the Rams. Losing those four players hurt the chemistry a little and losing that vet leadership is currently showing in certain areas of the team.

Not sure that this has been discussed enough.

Don't forget ...

[*jason*]

Yeah but... They all went to shitty teams and those teams are still shitty. I'm a big Vonn Bell fan, but none of those guys are game changers.

[SunsetBengal]

It's tough watching good players go to other teams, but sometimes that's the cost of doing business. Had they elected to keep Bates and Bell, the team would likely be suffering at a different position group. FWIW, I think that Dax Hill is a future star while Nick Scott is just a placeholder while our next SS develops.

[*Go Cards*]

Just the price you pay when trying to sign a QB and 2- WR's to huge paydays in a salary cap system.

Unfortunately this will happen much more frequently going forward after Tee & Chase are signed.

Will have to eventually hit on draft classes to stay strong.

All that being said this team now is very formidable if Burrow somehow gets healthy and they can just grab some traction.

Yet they're at the threshold of being out of contention and must figure it out STAT.

[coachmcneil71]

(10-07-2023, 08:35 AM)jason Wrote: Yeah but... They all went to shitty teams and those teams are still shitty. I'm a big Vonn Bell fan, but none of those guys are game changers.

Obviously, you haven't watched Carolina and ATL so far this season. If you had, you would be hearing the names Bates, Hurst, and Bell quite often. Like a FN lot!! And yes, they are changing games for their respective teams. 

[coachmcneil71]

(10-07-2023, 08:46 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's tough watching good players go to other teams, but sometimes that's the cost of doing business. Had they elected to keep Bates and Bell, the team would likely be suffering at a different position group.  FWIW, I think that Dax Hill is a future star while Nick Scott is just a placeholder while our next SS develops.

I get it and you're not wrong. Ts, as I mentioned in the other thread, the defensive stats are currently skewed because the offense is so putrid. But our defense is also giving up big plays in chunks. That's on the backend of the defense no matter how it gets spun. 

[TecmoBengals]

(10-06-2023, 11:36 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. If it has, I apologize. Being here in the Florida panhandle I predominantly receive the NFC South, AFC East, and the occasional Jax game. You can bet that the NFC South is on every week. Ts, I've had the opportunity to watch Bates and Bell now more than once. Bates is balling! Bell isn't far behind. Both are contributing greatly to their new teams thus far. Perine is contributing about what we would expect. Hurst is doing Hurst things.

Point I'm trying to make is that losing those kind of locker room vets takes a toll in areas that don't always show up in the stats. I particularly think the loss of Bell and Bates shows. Not knocking Dax or Scott. Dax played great against the Rams. Losing those four players hurt the chemistry a little and losing that vet leadership is currently showing in certain areas of the team.

Not sure that this has been discussed enough.

I suppose the only counter I can think of is that the team is playing so poorly we actually don't know to what extent we're missing the vets lost during free agency.

[Clark W Griswold]

I get what you are saying but who did the Bengals lose in the front 6? These are same players they have had but all seem to have taken a step back this year for some unexplained reason.

They are getting ran all over and the pass rush has been weak with the exception of the Rams game. I really can’t judge how bad the DBs are because of how terrible the DL/LBs have been. When you can’t stop the run or rush the passer with any consistency then you are going to give up big plays in the passing game.

[Joelist]

(10-07-2023, 12:04 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: I get what you are saying but who did the Bengals lose in the front 6?  These are same players they have had but all seem to have taken a step back this year for some unexplained reason.

They are getting ran all over and the pass rush has been weak with the exception of the Rams game. I really can’t judge how bad the DBs are because of how terrible the DL/LBs have been. When you can’t stop the run or rush the passer with any consistency then you are going to give up big plays in the passing game.

Exactly. All the defensive issues trace directly to subpar play in the Front 7 - all of whom are back. And especially to the DL - again all of whom are back. 

[Sled21]

Wait, you're telling us teams losing vets due to the cap jurts them??? You don't say.

[TheFan]

(10-07-2023, 12:04 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: I get what you are saying but who did the Bengals lose in the front 6?  These are same players they have had but all seem to have taken a step back this year for some unexplained reason.

They are getting ran all over and the pass rush has been weak with the exception of the Rams game. I really can’t judge how bad the DBs are because of how terrible the DL/LBs have been. When you can’t stop the run or rush the passer with any consistency then you are going to give up big plays in the passing game.

100%. There have been a couple missed communications  but everyone knew that was to expected the first part of the year. Hill has played just as good as Bates or Bell did last year. Scott has been bad but Bates started pretty poor last year. 

As you said, the front 7 is much more of a concern in addition to Hilton being a lot worse so far this year. 

[coachmcneil71]

(10-07-2023, 12:04 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: I get what you are saying but who did the Bengals lose in the front 6?  These are same players they have had but all seem to have taken a step back this year for some unexplained reason.

They are getting ran all over and the pass rush has been weak with the exception of the Rams game. I really can’t judge how bad the DBs are because of how terrible the DL/LBs have been. When you can’t stop the run or rush the passer with any consistency then you are going to give up big plays in the passing game.

Thank you for making my point. Players lost on defense: two veteran safeties. Players still on roster: front 7. 

Perhaps, just perhaps, Bates and Bell held the other seven to a higher standard when they were here because they are vets that carried weight in the locker room. Guys that are willing to get in the front seven's faces and let them know when they are playing like shit!

I just don't think that Dax or Scott is providing that kind of leadership. It's not that they are playing bad. It's that they are both new and probably not trying to rock the boat. I guarantee you that both Bates and Bell spoke their minds in the huddle. Which makes my point about losing veteran leadership.

[Clark W Griswold]

(10-07-2023, 01:02 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Thank you for making my point. Players lost on defense: two veteran safeties. Players still on roster: front 7. 

Perhaps, just perhaps, Bates and Bell held the other seven to a higher standard when they were here because they are vets that carried weight in the locker room. Guys that are willing to get in the front seven's faces and let them know when they are playing like shit!

I just don't think that Dax or Scott is providing that kind of leadership. It's not that they are playing bad. It's that they are both new and probably not trying to rock the boat. I guarantee you that both Bates and Bell spoke their minds in the huddle. Which makes my point about losing veteran leadership.

I get that but I don’t think vets like Reader, Hubbard, Hendrickson etc need to be motivated or told they are playing like crap. Rah-rah speeches are overrated for professional athletes. The new DBs will have growing pains but that is not the reason the front 7 is struggling.

[TheFan]

(10-07-2023, 01:02 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Thank you for making my point. Players lost on defense: two veteran safeties. Players still on roster: front 7. 

Perhaps, just perhaps, Bates and Bell held the other seven to a higher standard when they were here because they are vets that carried weight in the locker room. Guys that are willing to get in the front seven's faces and let them know when they are playing like shit!

I just don't think that Dax or Scott is providing that kind of leadership. It's not that they are playing bad. It's that they are both new and probably not trying to rock the boat. I guarantee you that both Bates and Bell spoke their minds in the huddle. Which makes my point about losing veteran leadership.

That's not making your point. That's you trying to use correlation in place of causation to defend your opinion. How many times did you see Bates or Bell getting into people's faces? I literally can't recall once. 

Hubbard on the line was a captain in addition to DJ Reader. Bates and Bell don't put the line in place, it's the LBs who help make those calls. Our DBs (outside of Scott sucking) have not been the problem with our defense so far. 

[RunKijanaRun]

It would be so great to have Bell or Bates back there and no Nick Scott. He’s awful.

[J24]

(10-07-2023, 04:06 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: Don't forget ...

I know your Joking but he was a solid player for us who made a couple of big plays for us in the Superbowl run.

[J24]

We're missing three elite run defenders front last season. Bates(ranked third amongst safties in run defense last season according pff), Bell, and Hilton ability is with the monstars.

[Destro]

We have historically bad passing. Unless Bell and Bates can run 80 yards after a two yard out, we would still suck. Scored 3 points twice. Our best defense would let two field goals happen.