OL article

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-20-2023, 10:02 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Anyway, they've had to face three elite pash rushers in their first 6 games.

Browns - Myles Garrett
Rams - Donald
Titans - Simmmons

I'd give the unit a B- so far this year.

Aaron Donald still seems like a shell of his former self since he was thinking about retiring but came back only for the money. Still good, but certainly not the Aaron Donald that his name makes you think of. 

Simmons also has a career high of 8.5 sacks and 16 QB hits in 17 games, back in 2021. Good, but not elite.

I don't think either of them are elite and both of them have less sacks this year than either BJ Hill or Sam Hubbard. There are 74 players with as many sacks as them right now, and neither of them are in the top-15 among DTs.

They are good players, but talk of them being elite in 2023 is largely name power right now. Nearly every team has a player of their current production caliber on it.

(Obviously Garrett out of that trio is still great.)

- - - - - -

I do think the OL is probably slightly improved, but ultimately the run game is still trash and it's really hard to tell how much the OL has improved in pass blocking because they're running a quick dink-and-dunk passing game that's shorter than can be effective, so they're not being asked to block for long. 

I mean, Burrow is on paced to be sacked 39.7 times this year. I guess that's better than the 41 sacks in 16 games last year, but not by much, and certainly not worth the drop from 7.4 yards per attempt to 5.3 yards per attempt.

[*bfine32*]

(10-20-2023, 04:32 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Aaron Donald still seems like a shell of his former self since he was thinking about retiring but came back only for the money. Still good, but certainly not the Aaron Donald that his name makes you think of. 

Simmons also has a career high of 8.5 sacks and 16 QB hits in 17 games, back in 2021. Good, but not elite.

I don't think either of them are elite and both of them have less sacks this year than either BJ Hill or Sam Hubbard. There are 74 players with as many sacks as them right now, and neither of them are in the top-15 among DTs.

They are good players, but talk of them being elite in 2023 is largely name power right now. Nearly every team has a player of their current production caliber on it.

(Obviously Garrett out of that trio is still great.)

- - - - - -

I do think the OL is probably slightly improved, but ultimately the run game is still trash and it's really hard to tell how much the OL has improved in pass blocking because they're running a quick dink-and-dunk passing game that's shorter than can be effective, so they're not being asked to block for long. 

I mean, Burrow is on paced to be sacked 42.5 times this year. I guess that's better than the 41 sacks in 16 games last year, but not by much, and certainly not worth the drop from 7.4 yards per attempt to 5.3 yards per attempt.

I'm no fan of Frank Pollack but I don't think using sacks as a measure to downgrade them this year is all that fair. There have been some plays that JB has taken a sack that I could have avoided. 

We are 3/5 of a fine oline, 4/5 if we move Karras to LG, 5/5 if we offer DEN a little something for JB's College Center. 

[SunsetBengal]

(10-20-2023, 03:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: A deal at that amount would be $15 mill APY.

If he was staying at RT, that would put him 7th among all RTs in yearly salary.
If LT, would be 11th highest.

If he re-signed with the Bengals, he would obviously play RT, so let's compare him to other RTs making around that cost.
Is he about as good as Rob Havenstein, Caleb McGary, and Jack Conklin?
McGary and Havenstein make $11.5 mill APY and Conklin makes $15 mill.

But you can also find a guy like Morgan Moses, who is only making $5 mill APY and is doing well with the Ravens. Or George Fant for only $3 mill.
Moses is playing better than Williams, Fant about the same.

For me personally, I'd be ok offering around $9-12 mill for Williams if he continues his current trend.
But I don't think he's worth $15+ mill unless he really starts dominating the second half of the season.

According to these guys, Conklin is the 10th highest AAV salried RT @ $15M/per.

https://overthecap.com/position/right-tackle

[*ochocincos*]

(10-20-2023, 05:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: According to these guys, Conklin is the 10th highest AAV salried RT @ $15M/per.

https://overthecap.com/position/right-tackle

I got my numbers from spotrac. Not sure if there's a disconnect or they have some players listed as LT vs RT different from what OTC has.

[*Go Cards*]

(10-20-2023, 04:32 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Aaron Donald still seems like a shell of his former self since he was thinking about retiring but came back only for the money. Still good, but certainly not the Aaron Donald that his name makes you think of. 

Simmons also has a career high of 8.5 sacks and 16 QB hits in 17 games, back in 2021. Good, but not elite.

I don't think either of them are elite and both of them have less sacks this year than either BJ Hill or Sam Hubbard. There are 74 players with as many sacks as them right now, and neither of them are in the top-15 among DTs.

They are good players, but talk of them being elite in 2023 is largely name power right now. Nearly every team has a player of their current production caliber on it.

(Obviously Garrett out of that trio is still great.)

- - - - - -

I do think the OL is probably slightly improved, but ultimately the run game is still trash and it's really hard to tell how much the OL has improved in pass blocking because they're running a quick dink-and-dunk passing game that's shorter than can be effective, so they're not being asked to block for long. 

I mean, Burrow is on paced to be sacked 42.5 times this year. I guess that's better than the 41 sacks in 16 games last year, but not by much, and certainly not worth the drop from 7.4 yards per attempt to 5.3 yards per attempt.

  Thinking that Burrow's injury is contributing greatly to him being more statuesque in the pocket almost like a practice dummy. Add in the pass heavy play calling that just allows Defenses to just pin their ears back and its a recipe for a long day for the O-line.

 Believe they've definitely improved some, but still lack that push on the 3rd or 4th and short which is so frustrating. We can judge better in the upcoming games after the Bye per suspecting we should see a much healthier Joe Burrow each week now. He should start going more vertical when he can roll out and buy an extra second or two as well and should see that YPA climbing. 

Sure hope so anyway or the Bengals will be on the outside looking in come playoff time with the schedule that remains.



.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-20-2023, 05:29 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Although I think Joe is on pace to be sacked 39.6 times in a 17 game season. Believe he has been sacked 14 times in 6 games 

Yeah, I just did some quick mental math on that one and 100% failed. Lol 

I saw the 6 games with 2, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3... told myself mentally to move 1 from a 3 to a 1 to make it a 2 as a quick averaging method, but then didn't remember that, so I mentally did 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3 for an average of 2.5 rather than 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3 for an average of 2.33.

[*Go Cards*]

(10-20-2023, 05:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, I just did some quick mental math on that one and 100% failed. Lol 

I saw the 6 games with 2, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3... told myself mentally to move 1 from a 3 to a 1 to make it a 2 as a quick averaging method, but then didn't remember that, so I mentally did 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3 for an average of 2.5 rather than 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3 for an average of 2.33.

Really didn't matter much for my point and I tried to edit it out quickly, but you were way too fast lol. 

[SunsetBengal]

(10-20-2023, 05:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I got my numbers from spotrac. Not sure if there's a disconnect or they have some players listed as LT vs RT different from what OTC has.

If you go to their page, you can click on either RT or LT specific, or any position for that matter.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-20-2023, 05:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, I just did some quick mental math on that one and 100% failed. Lol 

I saw the 6 games with 2, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3... told myself mentally to move 1 from a 3 to a 1 to make it a 2 as a quick averaging method, but then didn't remember that, so I mentally did 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3 for an average of 2.5 rather than 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3 for an average of 2.33.

(10-20-2023, 05:42 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Really didn't matter much for my point and I tried to edit it out quickly, but you were way too fast lol. 

The "improvement" comes in the form of Burrow being sacked 22 time through 6 games last year, vs. 14x/6 games this season.  Which meant that Joe only got crushed 19 more times in the remaining 12 games that they played.  So, following that model and assuming that they advance to the post season again, he would be on pace to be sacked a total of 33x this year. 

[*ochocincos*]

(10-20-2023, 05:45 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If you go to their page, you can click on either RT or LT specific, or any position for that matter.

On spotrac?


I did.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/right-tackle/limit-100/
When I go to Contracts, filter by Right Tackle/Left Tackle, and sort by AAV...

Left Tackle:
1) Tunsil - $25 mill APY
11) Armstead/Decker - $15 mill APY

Right Tackle:
1) Lane Johnson - $20.2 mill APY
7) Conklin - $15 mill APY
8) Havenstein/McGary - $11.5 mill APY

[SunsetBengal]

(10-20-2023, 06:13 PM)ochocincos Wrote: On spotrac?


I did.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/right-tackle/limit-100/
When I go to Contracts, filter by Right Tackle/Left Tackle, and sort by AAV...

Left Tackle:
1) Tunsil - $25 mill APY
11) Armstead/Decker - $15 mill APY

Right Tackle:
1) Lane Johnson - $20.2 mill APY
7) Conklin - $15 mill APY
8) Havenstein/McGary - $11.5 mill APY

I meant for you to go to the link that I provided..

   

[The D.O.Z.]

This year's version has kept Burrow cleaner than past renditions but still can't run block as a unit. It's maddening, it seems like every damn year, we have one or two weak links on the OLine. Last year it was breaking in a new, rookie LG from a small school AND "The Bodyguard" not really being a bodyguard. This year, it's Volson not taking the next step and Karras is not playing well. I just don't get it. We have the horses. Is it scheme? Is it Pollack's coaching / teaching? Is it ATTITUDE (the WANT to absolutely dominate the man across the line and push him off the LoS)?!

[*ochocincos*]

(10-20-2023, 07:15 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I meant for you to go to the link that I provided..

Ahh here's why there's a difference:

On OTC, they have Tytus Howard, Brian O'Neill, and Terence Steele in their RT list, which spotrac doesn't list them in their RT filter.

[chrisball96]

(10-20-2023, 07:51 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: This year's version has kept Burrow cleaner than past renditions but still can't run block as a unit. It's maddening, it seems like every damn year, we have one or two weak links on the OLine. Last year it was breaking in a new, rookie LG from a small school AND "The Bodyguard" not really being a bodyguard. This year, it's Volson not taking the next step and Karras is not playing well. I just don't get it. We have the horses. Is it scheme? Is it Pollack's coaching / teaching? Is it ATTITUDE (the WANT to absolutely dominate the man across the line and push him off the LoS)?!

As far as the running game, not sure we can pin it all on the offensive line. I know the grades are bad but Mixon hasn’t been effective at all, and our scheme just isn’t conducive right now to having a lot of success on the ground. But I think the best thing we can do is find some way to get the running game going because we are going to need it going forward. Being one dimensional against the opponents we have coming up is a sure fire way to get dominated.

[Joelist]

Run game issues have a lot of causes:

1) We are not committed to running, so the line and backs do not have the need practice to do it effectively and consistently.
2) Mixon. So far this year he just goes down on first contact constantly. If he even broke one tackle on a run the numbers would look dramatically different.
3) Choice of run plays. Numbers show we run FAR better inside than to the edges and also better left than right.
4) Tendency to run out of single back and spread without a lead blocker.

There are more.

[HarleyDog]

(10-20-2023, 09:05 PM)Joelist Wrote: Run game issues have a lot of causes:

1) We are not committed to running, so the line and backs do not have the need practice to do it effectively and consistently.
2) Mixon. So far this year he just goes down on first contact constantly. If he even broke one tackle on a run the numbers would look dramatically different.
3) Choice of run plays. Numbers show we run FAR better inside than to the edges and also better left than right.
4) Tendency to run out of single back and spread without a lead blocker.

There are more.

Not sure where you get your numbers, but that's impressive.

[Sled21]

(10-20-2023, 08:54 PM)chrisball96 Wrote: As far as the running game, not sure we can pin it all on the offensive line. I know the grades are bad but Mixon hasn’t been effective at all, and our scheme just isn’t conducive right now to having a lot of success on the ground. But I think the best thing we can do is find some way to get the running game going because we are going to need it going forward. Being one dimensional against the opponents we have coming up is a sure fire way to get dominated.

Teams have been able to load up and stuff the run because they knew Burrow could not push the ball down the field, nor could he scramble. It's just that simple. 

[sandwedge]

(10-21-2023, 09:15 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Teams have been able to load up and stuff the run because they knew Burrow could not push the ball down the field, nor could he scramble. It's just that simple. 

Another thing also, we can't really take deeper shots right now because all we have is Chase. Tee, prior to being injured had his head up his ass. So yes the D is gonna come up closer to the LOS

[Bengalitis]

we will never have a Super Bow OL when we have great QB and WRs and a TE/RB.... it just wont happen...the line will be forever a carousel of a box of chocolates to see what we get....

if we ever get that magical OL, we will have a new mediocre QB, if lucky a slightly above average WR and RB/TE...

[KillerGoose]

(10-20-2023, 09:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Not sure where you get your numbers, but that's impressive.

PFF+ has the numbers. You can also get them if you know how to write a little bit of code using NFLFastR. On tackle and edge runs, Cincinnati has 39 attempts for a 3.2 average. On inside runs, Cincinnati has 67 attempts for a 4.19 average. I think Cincinnati is mapping it differently internally though. They are counting RPOs where the ball is pulled and bubble screens as part of the rush game. That has kind of been the outside rush game through the first six weeks.