Blame the run game

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-28-2023, 04:37 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You have to use both. You come up with a preliminary opinion with your eyes and validate it with data. When there is a mismatch between the two, you've gone wrong somewhere. Either A) you have a bad dataset OR B) your "eye test" is wrong. In this case, Mixon neither converts short yardage situations more often or breaks tackles more often. Perine is superior in both categories. That poses a big problem to your assessment between the two and one play in the Super Bowl, regardless of your emotional attachment, doesn't change that.



Well to begin, that means absolutely nothing. His opinion is no different than yours. On top of that...has he? Or has he only mentioned that Mixon is "powerful enough"? Goodberry mentions Mixon being powerful here but says nothing of comparing the two. Here is a tweet where Goodberry is talking about how awful he is at breaking tackles and wants to be told how Mixon is still good. 

I don't think he has the same opinion as you. 

This isn't the tweet I was referencing but here is one from last year just simply comparing the 2 backs during a 5 game stretch.

Bengals RBs last 6 games

Mixon
54 carries, 258 yards (4.8), 5 TDs
3.06 yards after contact average
7 missed Tackles Forced
17 catches, 165 yards, 1 TD

Perine
57 carries, 252 yards (4.4), 1 TD
3.11 yards after contact average
8 missed tackles forced
20 catches, 157 yards, 3 TDs

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) December 7, 2022

 

[KillerGoose]

(11-28-2023, 04:45 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Please post said numbers.

I already did. You responded to it. 

Quote:Samaje Perine converts short yardage runs at a higher percentage than Mixon does with Perine converting 69% of his attempts and Mixon converting 67%. Perine also breaks significantly more tackles than Mixon does along with averaging more yards after contact.

Using PFF as the source, Joe Mixon ranks 54th out of 66 RBs in elusiveness which is a stat that measures broken tackle ratio (broken tackles/rush attempts) and yards after contact. Perine is tied for 17th out of 66. Last year, Mixon ranked 57th out of 62 where Perine ranked 32nd out of 62. In 2021, Mixon ranked 45th out of 73. Perine ranked 42nd out of 73. 

Over at least the last three years, Perine has consistently broken tackles more often and gained more yardage after contact. I'm not even sure why you're choosing this as your hill to die on. Perine weighs 236 compared to Mixon's 220 and is a known freak in the weight room. He was already squatting 600 pounds in high school. 

[KillerGoose]

(11-28-2023, 04:56 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: This isn't the tweet I was referencing but here is one from last year just simply comparing the 2 backs during a 5 game stretch.

Bengals RBs last 6 games

Mixon
54 carries, 258 yards (4.8), 5 TDs
3.06 yards after contact average
7 missed Tackles Forced
17 catches, 165 yards, 1 TD

Perine
57 carries, 252 yards (4.4), 1 TD
3.11 yards after contact average
8 missed tackles forced
20 catches, 157 yards, 3 TDs

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) December 7, 2022

 

That's the tweet? The one that shows Perine averaging more yards after contact and forcing more missed tackles? Okay. 

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-28-2023, 05:01 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I already did. You responded to it. 


Using PFF as the source, Joe Mixon ranks 54th out of 66 RBs in elusiveness which is a stat that measures broken tackle ratio (broken tackles/rush attempts) and yards after contact. Perine is tied for 17th out of 66. Last year, Mixon ranked 57th out of 62 where Perine ranked 32nd out of 62. In 2021, Mixon ranked 45th out of 73. Perine ranked 42nd out of 73. 

Over at least the last three years, Perine has consistently broken tackles more often and gained more yardage after contact. I'm not even sure why you're choosing this as your hill to die on. Perine weighs 236 compared to Mixon's 220 and is a known freak in the weight room. He was already squatting 600 pounds in high school. 

You know not that I think it necessarily helps me. But the Bengals seem to agree with me. The NFL seems to agree with me or Samaje should probably fire his agent. 

And just answer one question for me. What happened on 3rd and 1 in the superbowl a drive we had to keep going. Did Samaje break a tackle? Did he stiff arm someone? Asking for a friend? 

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-28-2023, 05:02 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: That's the tweet? The one that shows Perine averaging more yards after contact and forcing more missed tackles? Okay. 

This might be the problem. I said you have to use your eyes. You apparently cannot. I said this isn't the tweet.  

[KillerGoose]

(11-28-2023, 05:15 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: This might be the problem. I said you have to use your eyes. You apparently cannot. I said this isn't the tweet.  

Yet it is still the one you chose to insert into this discussion to back up your position. I'm not sure what is more exhausting, being a moron or a stubborn fool. You have experience with both, so please let me know. 

[Frank Booth]

(11-28-2023, 05:14 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: And just answer one question for me. What happened on 3rd and 1 in the superbowl a drive we had to keep going. Did Samaje break a tackle? Did he stiff arm someone? Asking for a friend? 

honestly, whats wrong with you? You're fixated on this 3rd and 1 play, and using that as the end all be all to defend Mixon as a more productive back than Perine

Very weird. Very odd. You're fixated on it. My advice? go play with your train set

[*Synric*]

I'm betting both Perine and Mixon are near the bottom in the NFL in explosive runs.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-28-2023, 05:34 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm betting both Perine and Mixon are near the bottom in the NFL in explosive runs.

I sure wouldn't bet against it. For my tastes, the two back approach the Bengals had was better than the run game now. That was my only point.....and that Perine is a fiercer runner, not that he's Earl Campbell held back by lack of opportunity.

[KillerGoose]

(11-28-2023, 05:34 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm betting both Perine and Mixon are near the bottom in the NFL in explosive runs.

Mixon is. Perine is ranked 30th out of 66 backs this year. Both Perine and Mixon were near the bottom last year. Perine was 60th out of 62 and Mixon 49th. 

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-28-2023, 05:28 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: honestly, whats wrong with you? You're fixated on this 3rd and 1 play, and using that as the end all be all to defend Mixon as a more productive back than Perine

Very weird. Very odd. You're fixated on it. My advice? go play with your train set

I'm not fixated on it. I'm just perplexed why people would be pounding the table for a guy that couldn't get us a yard on the biggest stage.

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-28-2023, 05:24 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yet it is still the one you chose to insert into this discussion to back up your position. I'm not sure what is more exhausting, being a moron or a stubborn fool. You have experience with both, so please let me know. 

I just posted it because I saw it and they looked pretty equal. Perine had some positives over Mixon. But Mixon had a higher YPC and more TDs.

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-28-2023, 05:01 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I already did. You responded to it. 


Using PFF as the source, Joe Mixon ranks 54th out of 66 RBs in elusiveness which is a stat that measures broken tackle ratio (broken tackles/rush attempts) and yards after contact. Perine is tied for 17th out of 66. Last year, Mixon ranked 57th out of 62 where Perine ranked 32nd out of 62. In 2021, Mixon ranked 45th out of 73. Perine ranked 42nd out of 73. 

Over at least the last three years, Perine has consistently broken tackles more often and gained more yardage after contact. I'm not even sure why you're choosing this as your hill to die on. Perine weighs 236 compared to Mixon's 220 and is a known freak in the weight room. He was already squatting 600 pounds in high school. 

I responded to your percentage post. I guess I was hoping to see the actual numbers. As you said either eyes or memories are bad or the data is bad. Hard to tell anything about the data if you don't have an actual breakdown of the data.

[3wt]

(11-27-2023, 12:08 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I disagree on the Mixon is terrible statement. But what i really wanted to say is Brown has been injured and this his 1st game back from injury Evans was a healthy scratch. I honestly don't think our coaches look at the running game as an avenue for success. Sure it's easy to look at this game and say 2 ypc no wonder we don't run the ball. But it's happened multiple times this year that Mixon pops off some 5-10yd runs and we completely forget about the run game. I mean Chris Evans literally has 2 carries this year 1 was 5 yd carry the other was a 7 yd carry and we never give him another chance. Not to mention he had shown good hands and a little bit of shiftiness to pick up the 1st down yet we never give him any targets. We need a fresh breath of air in offensive playcalling. 

So a couple games back he was on the field lined up as a receiver.   He had no clue where to line up and apparently just seemed lost.

Burrow was majorly pissed.  I think he had to call for a time out.

That may be the reason he is a healthy scratch.  You have to know what is going on by now.   I've never seen Joe that obviously angry at a player on the field.

It's a shame because he has great hands, can run good routes and has good wiggle.

[3wt]

(11-28-2023, 05:34 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm betting both Perine and Mixon are near the bottom in the NFL in explosive runs.

But I think that's largely because our offensive line is just not good enough (or is being used the wrong way) in Mixon's case and because Perine is a fullback - and a good one (though I don't really know what his run blocking is like).  But in terms of blitz pickups, receiving and running he's a good fullback.  I miss him.  But he is just not going to be an explosive back.

When Joe gets a hole he's really good.   Too easily tripped up, but that may be a function of his size.   But he can gobble real estate and pound tacklers when he gets into the secondary.

I think the problem is our scheme, our offensive line and the play calling.   The guy that talks film review on Locked on Bengals ("Bengals Sans") is so frustrated that we use blocking schemes we know our line can't execute.  He is also upset that they both stop running when it's working for them and when they have a couple of bad running plays.  I would add their timing and executing of runs and screens is typically poor - including Joe.  Watching other QBs throw screens they throw with zip and they throw the receiver open.   Maybe Joe doesn't because he's afraid they are NOT open, but either way it looks really bad.

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-29-2023, 02:26 PM)3wt Wrote: So a couple games back he was on the field lined up as a receiver.   He had no clue where to line up and apparently just seemed lost.

Burrow was majorly pissed.  I think he had to call for a time out.

That may be the reason he is a healthy scratch.  You have to know what is going on by now.   I've never seen Joe that obviously angry at a player on the field.

It's a shame because he has great hands, can run good routes and has good wiggle.

Okay. I didn't notice that. But Burrow does seem to get pretty irritated when someone makes a mental mistake.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-29-2023, 02:26 PM)3wt Wrote: So a couple games back he was on the field lined up as a receiver.   He had no clue where to line up and apparently just seemed lost.

Burrow was majorly pissed.  I think he had to call for a time out.

That may be the reason he is a healthy scratch.  You have to know what is going on by now.   I've never seen Joe that obviously angry at a player on the field.

It's a shame because he has great hands, can run good routes and has good wiggle.

Yeah, Chris Evans messed up, that is why he doesn't get any snaps. Would be nice to see what we have in Chase Brown.

Seems like a smart guy.

I also must reiterate that Perine is better than Mixon in short yardage lol

Would be nice to add a short yardage powerful back this Offseason.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-29-2023, 02:43 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Okay. I didn't notice that. But Burrow does seem to get pretty irritated when someone makes a mental mistake.

When you have to waste a timeout that can cost you a game for it, it is completely understandable.

[*Synric*]

(11-29-2023, 02:34 PM)3wt Wrote: But I think that's largely because our offensive line is just not good enough (or is being used the wrong way) in Mixon's case and because Perine is a fullback - and a good one (though I don't really know what his run blocking is like).  But in terms of blitz pickups, receiving and running he's a good fullback.  I miss him.  But he is just not going to be an explosive back.

When Joe gets a hole he's really good.   Too easily tripped up, but that may be a function of his size.   But he can gobble real estate and pound tacklers when he gets into the secondary.

I think the problem is our scheme, our offensive line and the play calling.   The guy that talks film review on Locked on Bengals ("Bengals Sans") is so frustrated that we use blocking schemes we know our line can't execute.  He is also upset that they both stop running when it's working for them and when they have a couple of bad running plays.  I would add their timing and executing of runs and screens is typically poor - including Joe.  Watching other QBs throw screens they throw with zip and they throw the receiver open.   Maybe Joe doesn't because he's afraid they are NOT open, but either way it looks really bad.

Its not the scheme or play calling we are talking about some very basic run plays that we see every game every week. The execution was bad very bad if it wasn't one of the OL it was a TE and the rare times it was blocked up to give Mixon 1 on 1 vs a Safety he loses which is his issue. Mixon is only getting what he is blocked for that's why his Yards Over Expected Percentage is near the bottom of the NFL.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-29-2023, 03:03 PM)Synric Wrote: Its not the scheme or play calling we are talking about some very basic run plays that we see every game every week. The execution was bad very bad if it wasn't one of the OL it was a TE and the rare times it was blocked up to give Mixon 1 on 1 vs a Safety he loses which is his issue. Mixon is only getting what he is blocked for that's why his Yards Over Expected Percentage is near the bottom of the NFL.

Yes, the OL and TE's need to put it all together and be on the same page and we need a RB that can actually make Defenders
miss and break tackles. This is the biggest problem right now in the run game. It isn't like all these vets forgot how to block.

They need to get back to the basics, I blame this on Pollack. It shows in Volson's lack of development and how he looks lost at
times in just knocking over his own guys instead of the Defender lol