How can we fix the team to compete in AFC north?

[Luvnit2]

I see bringing up Joe Burrow contract kicks in so I pointed out we have 70 million in cap space in 2024, Ravens have 12.6 million or 57.5 million less, Steelers have negative 5 million or 75 million less and Browns have a whopping negative 12+ million or less than 82 million than Bengals. Browns can't cut Watson as 100% of his contract is guaranteed. Also, Flacco doing well is costing them more cap money in bonuses which impacts carry over for 2023 so lessens 2024 and 2025.


2025 cap Space
Bengals = 182 million
Steelers - 121 million (no franchise QB) and we have 60 million more
Ravens 69 million (we have 113 million more than Ravens)
Browns = negative 29 million, we have 211 million more than Browns

One thing Bengals do well is manage cap money, maybe too well at times. But, looking at the future and added cap money from the league, Bengals can sign Higgins and other FA's while Browns and Steelers are limited in signing their own free agents or other FA's.

Browns also do not have a 1st round pick in 2024, so their GM is going to have to work some magic in 2024 and 2025.

We are in far better shape n cap money in 2024 and 2025 than others in the AFC North, that does matter.

[Soonerpeace]

(01-01-2024, 04:10 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Our running game wasnt good last year either.... take away the Carolina game and it was real bad.

I’m not denying that lol. It was also good versus Buffalo. But I think our division is tougher this year.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-01-2024, 03:08 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Caesar said since 2021. 2020 we weren’t very roster ready.

I agree 2020 was a young and growing roster but that also supports the premise that to win and make a real continued run in playoffs you need more than a top tier QB. Also on the idea of winning with a healthy Burrow so excuse those games he was not healthy, i would have to put an asterisk on the 4 wins against the Ravens with Burrow and no Lamar which means Burrow is 5-4 counting the playoffs games vs AFC North with their top QBs and 1-2 vs Lamar still a small sample size but they are going to be facing each for a while in AFC North so we need to start beating Jackson if they can both stay healthy which has not been the case over the past few years.

[Soonerpeace]

(01-01-2024, 04:38 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I agree 2020 was a young and growing roster but that also supports the premise that to win and make a real continued run in playoffs you need more than a top tier QB. Also on the idea of winning with a healthy Burrow so excuse those games he was not healthy, i would have to put an asterisk on the 4 wins against the Ravens with Burrow and no Lamar which means Burrow is 5-4 counting the playoffs games vs AFC North with their top QBs and 1-2 vs Lamar still a small sample size but they are going to be facing each for a while in AFC North so we need to start beating Jackson if they can both stay healthy which has not been the case over the past few years.

I don’t know what your real argument is. I’m not counting 2020 as a rookie. Joe vs Lamar when both fully healthy 1-1. Joe won 41-17 in ‘21 and Lamar 19-17 in ‘22. If your argument is Baltimore has a better team than Cincy with backup QB’s I agree. I’m not counting Joe’s rookie year just like I don’t count Peyton Manning’s rookie year of 26 TD 28 INT or Troy Aikman’s 9 TD 18 INT or how pitiful their teams were. It’s silly nor am I grading how good any team with a top tier QB is without them. They never get far. Baltimore last year w/o Lamar was 3-3 before losing to us in the playoff. Sound familiar? They lost their last regular season game to Cincy 27-20. Sounds strikingly similar to us losing to KC?

[Bengalstripes9]

(01-01-2024, 02:36 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Why does everyone forget that we dusted the Browns just 4 weeks later without Tee, Boyd or Hurst?  Did we improve the team in that month?

I think this whole AFCN theory is kinda crap.  If a team can beat KC and the Bills regularly, then they should be able to beat the Ravens, Browns and Steelers, and they have the last 2 years.

Ravens Game 1 - Burrow played injured and lost by 3.
Ravens Game 2- Winning the game when Burrow went out.
Steelers Game 1 - Browning's 1st game
Steelers Game 2 - Browning at QB, 3 INTs
Browns Game 1 - Burrow played hurt in a hurricane

The only game Burrow played healthy we were winning and vs the best team in the NFL today.  I dont count games that Burrow played injured or missed, we are too dependent on him. That is a problem that should be addressed, maybe this time with Jake helps with this issue moving forward.

These are solid excuses. But the bottom line is the bengals are in jeopardy of a sweep this year. You can make as many excuses as you want, but the bottom line is 0-5, 9-20 overall vs afc north.

The point of the thread is to ask ‘how?’

How can we win inside the division?

On a side note, I wouldn’t mind seeing the ravens or browns win the Super Bowl so the afc north can get some recognition. They’ve done a good job building a winning formula and I wouldn’t mind seeing a team like the browns, ravens, or 9ers winning it all this year. The ravens are the team to beat right now and look like tops in the league.

During any offseason, I think most coaches and players would agree that it’s good to learn from the successful teams and learn how to beat them.

The bengals are close. When they beat the 9ers and bills, they were very balanced. In our afc north games, not so much..

I think the key to winning in the north is stopping the run and establishing the run. Bengals need a balanced attack to win, and a better defense.

[Bengalstripes9]

(01-01-2024, 01:04 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Baltimore has done an excellent job of improving their team. They were weak at WR and Mark Andrews went down and they didn’t miss a beat. Todd Monken is a very good OC and really helped their offense. They are a Super Bowl team. Whether they finish it off who knows. Cleveland is 11-5 they’ve only played us once. They are strong in the trenches. Pittsburg should have played Mason last year. I’m very familiar with Mason. He’s a good QB. Tomlin screwed that up royally.

We are in a tough division. We regressed partially due to injury to Joe. But it’s my opinion the last 2 years of solid late season runs were taken for granted. It didn’t happen despite being led by Jake. The secondary missed Vonn Bell and Bates. The OL pass blocked better later in the year but the run blocking is just awful. I’d replace Pollack with someone that can really scheme a running game. It needs fixing awfully bad. The DL needs some help. I didn’t think the entire defense played as well this year minus Trey.

I look at the 9ers and bills games and we ran the ball well. I think the play calling/game plan in those games was very good.

I think the play calling/game plan against the afc north was poor. Too predictable.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-31-2023, 05:20 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: The browns and ravens are the best of the afc right now. Our record against both teams is abysmal over the last several seasons and under Zac Taylor.

The bengals are built to pass the ball and play opportunistic bend but don’t brake defense.

The browns and ravens are built to play smothering defense, run the ball, and pass off their running game. In other words, AFC north football.

I see the browns and ravens as the top teams in the afc right now. Browns might be the only team that can beat the ravens.

When we play the browns, we drop back and pass and get eaten alive from the pass rush. Against the ravens we struggle to run the ball.

The key to win these games next year is defense and establishing the run game. Zac gives up on the run in these games.

Bengals also struggle to stop the run in these games.

How can we adjust next year to beat these teams?

If the bengals want to make noise next year, they will need to get past afc north opponents.

Is there another formula other than defense and running game? It seems like Zac thinks so, but the results haven’t been there other than two seasons of decent success.

How can we improve? What’s the formula to sweep the north?

The formula is to make our trenches stronger than theirs honestly. Hard to do as they are already more than solid. But a better OL 
coach than Pollack a good new RT better than Jonah and a couple physical DT's and we aren't that far off as long as the coaches and
players learn from our failures this season.

[samhain]

(01-01-2024, 09:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The formula is to make our trenches stronger than theirs honestly. Hard to do as they are already more than solid. But a better OL 
coach than Pollack a good new RT better than Jonah and a couple physical DT's and we aren't that far off as long as the coaches and
players learn from our failures this season.

It's very hard to do when your organization can't draft and develop talent in the trenches.  Even mediocre success at those position groups would have this team sitting pretty right now.  Instead, we have to generally rely on relatively expensive FAs to fill gaps when they become apparent.  It's like pitching in baseball.  If you can't draft and develop in house, you either go without or pay up big time.  Teams that are good at it can maintain long term success even without insane spending in FA.  

Almost every single guy we have that's worth a shit on the line came from another NFL team.  Hubbard was really the only exception.  I'd give you Jonah, too. 

This can't continue.  You'd figure the law of averages would drop a decent lineman in their lap every decode or so.  Maybe Murphy can reverse this trend.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-01-2024, 09:42 PM)samhain Wrote: It's very hard to do when your organization can't draft and develop talent in the trenches.  Even mediocre success at those position groups would have this team sitting pretty right now.  Instead, we have to generally rely on relatively expensive FAs to fill gaps when they become apparent.  It's like pitching in baseball.  If you can't draft and develop in house, you either go without or pay up big time.  Teams that are good at it can maintain long term success even without insane spending in FA.  

Almost every single guy we have that's worth a shit on the line came from another NFL team.  Hubbard was really the only exception.  I'd give you Jonah, too. 

This can't continue.  You'd figure the law of averages would drop a decent lineman in their lap every decode or so.  Maybe Murphy can reverse this trend.

Yeah, that is why we need a new OL coach and maybe even a new DL coach to pick and develop the youth.

I do like what I saw of Murphy late in the season though, he has a high ceiling and maybe Hobby is not the problem, Pollack looks 
to be the problem on the OL though. All the players like you said came from another team in the NFL and were considerably better 
than they have been here under Frank Pollack. Just the facts.

[grampahol]

Gotta beef up the trenches on both sides no way around it.. Reader is a FA and will be on a gimpy knee at best if he returns..Most of the starters on both sides played like journeymen backups with the exception of Trey.. That's a recipe for an 8-8 season.. 

[puddycat]

1. Win in September. Why are we resting players that aren't ready to start? Win in September and we'd be 10-6 right now and likely backing our way into the playoffs.
2. Embrace the suck. Bengals have always been a build-from-the-outside-in team. This has set them up to be bullied by other teams who are tougher. Close low scoring affairs are not our friend. The refs can't be depended to bail out the team. Score early and keep your foot on the gas pedal.
3. Bend and DON'T break. I hate this style of defense(part of embracing the suck), but it is what it is. Not breaking requires good tackling and a willingness to pass interference and take a few defenseless receiver penalties. Not injuring people, but sometimes make it hurt.

[casear2727]

(01-01-2024, 09:10 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: These are solid excuses. But the bottom line is the bengals are in jeopardy of a sweep this year. You can make as many excuses as you want, but the bottom line is 0-5, 9-20 overall vs afc north.

The point of the thread is to ask ‘how?’

How can we win inside the division?

On a side note, I wouldn’t mind seeing the ravens or browns win the Super Bowl so the afc north can get some recognition. They’ve done a good job building a winning formula and I wouldn’t mind seeing a team like the browns, ravens, or 9ers winning it all this year. The ravens are the team to beat right now and look like tops in the league.

During any offseason, I think most coaches and players would agree that it’s good to learn from the successful teams and learn how to beat them.

The bengals are close. When they beat the 9ers and bills, they were very balanced. In our afc north games, not so much..

I think the key to winning in the north is stopping the run and establishing the run. Bengals need a balanced attack to win, and a better defense.

Looking at this year's team, I would simply say it stars with a healthy Burrow. He is 8-3 in the AFCN since 2021 when healthy.  I totally agree with you that the Run D and offensive run game must improve. 

[Housh]

We need a really big free agency/draft hit on the O and D lines. The D line atp needs 3 hits with Ossai being trash this whole year. Looking at our roster and dreaming and wishing we made playoffs is just sad because even if we made it we had no chance without Burrow. Burrow really masked the o line and Reader masked the d line’s issues.

D line needs 3 starter level guys in draft and FA and the offense needs 3 lineman because I’m near done with Cappa. He dodged a lot of scrutiny because Volson sucks and Jonah was a hotter topic but he’s not been good. I was expecting an above average lineman from Tampa Bay not a regular dude

[jj22]

Fire Pollack hire Detroit or Eagles assistant Oline coach, bring in Greg Roman as run coordinator / senior offensive assistant.

Fire Callahan. Like the guy and wish we could se if he can call plays, but Zac isn’t giving that up and we need fresh eyes. Promote Pitcher to OC, promote Walter’s to QB coach, and bring in Haley to see if he would return to the league as wr coach. His fiery approach would bring a certain tone to the offense.

Time for Duffner to retire. Bring in Mayo or Steve Billecheck in as senior defense assistant.

[jj22]

We need to somehow get back to players being hungry to establish themselves. The star players on this team outside of Trey look like they feel like they've arrived. Came into the season looking fat and full off of success. I didn't see the fire or hunger from this team to prove themselves. I didn't see any chips on shoulders like players had when they were traded for penny's (Hill), set to be released, or not offered second contracts.

How do you keep that hunger and drive alive after years of success? That is what Zac and co has to figure out. Something that was missing when watching other teams and their young up and coming players climbing the mountain showed with their passion, excitement, and energy.

Maybe this year and the failures in the division will get the team back in the something to prove mindset.

[Bengalstripes9]

(01-01-2024, 09:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The formula is to make our trenches stronger than theirs honestly. Hard to do as they are already more than solid. But a better OL 
coach than Pollack a good new RT better than Jonah and a couple physical DT's and we aren't that far off as long as the coaches and
players learn from our failures this season.

It's a tough task to fill right tackle and defensive tackle this year.
If we are going with rookies there could be growing pains there and we may not know the players we bring in are the answer right away.
We don't have a premier pick so it makes the job difficult.
Maybe we can sign someone but we can't afford the best free agent DT or RT out there so overall I could see the Bengals dline and oline being a little worse than it was this year.
Of course, we could sign and trade Tee to get a premier pick and grab a premier DT prospect. But I don't see that happening.
This could be the best move to make the team more well-rounded and balanced. But it sucks to lose Tee.

When it comes down to it we are built different then the other AFC North teams. All other teams focus is on defense, oline, and running game.
Our focus is on wideouts, quarterback, skill players, and bend but don't break defense.
Time will tell if this strategy will be successful inside the division now that the division teams around us have rebuilt into playoff contenders. 
It's obviously good enough to win in the NFL at large. But inside the division the results are more mixed.

Our best chance of success is to improve the oline, defense, and running game and find more balance on offense.
Good AFC North defenses will give our offense trouble at times and the defense will really need to step up.

It's not an easy fix this year with the potential player losses and where our salaries are headed.
Sucks to miss out on our best playoff window (last 3 years).
Hopefully the team doesn't fall apart around Burrow, Chase and Higgins (if they keep him long-term).

[Soonerpeace]

(01-03-2024, 07:01 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: It's a tough task to fill right tackle and defensive tackle this year.
If we are going with rookies there could be growing pains there and we may not know the players we bring in are the answer right away.
We don't have a premier pick so it makes the job difficult.
Maybe we can sign someone but we can't afford the best free agent DT or RT out there so overall I could see the Bengals dline and oline being a little worse than it was this year.
Of course, we could sign and trade Tee to get a premier pick and grab a premier DT prospect. But I don't see that happening.
This could be the best move to make the team more well-rounded and balanced. But it sucks to lose Tee.

When it comes down to it we are built different then the other AFC North teams. All other teams focus is on defense, oline, and running game.
Our focus is on wideouts, quarterback, skill players, and bend but don't break defense.
Time will tell if this strategy will be successful inside the division now that the division teams around us have rebuilt into playoff contenders. 
It's obviously good enough to win in the NFL at large. But inside the division the results are more mixed.

Our best chance of success is to improve the oline, defense, and running game and find more balance on offense.
Good AFC North defenses will give our offense trouble at times and the defense will really need to step up.

It's not an easy fix this year with the potential player losses and where our salaries are headed.
Sucks to miss out on our best playoff window (last 3 years).
Hopefully the team doesn't fall apart around Burrow, Chase and Higgins (if they keep him long-term).

Wonderful post. Pitt & Cleveland are in good shape in FA Ravens not so much. None have a lot of cap space but the Ravens a lot of places to fill. Personally I think the AFC North won’t be as strong next year. We’ve got salary cap room and can make some moves and likely a better draft spot. Could be worse.

[XenoMorph]

gotta win the Line of Scrimmage.

[Lucius Cincinnatus]

(01-04-2024, 10:52 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Wonderful post. Pitt & Cleveland are in good shape in FA Ravens not so much. None have a lot of cap space but the Ravens a lot of places to fill. Personally I think the AFC North won’t be as strong next year. We’ve got salary cap room and can make some moves and likely a better draft spot. Could be worse.

Eh, I think at this point the Ravens have shown that they will find a way to reload the roster. Of all the big free agents that are leaving, how many of those players were you highlighting for them before the season started? They always seem to be able to backfill talent that they lose with recent draft picks or cheap 1-year vet free agents (Clowney, Agholor, Van Noy, etc.) . They've been leading the comp pick game for years. That's all to say, I probably don't think they will be #1 seed good, but they will be right in the mix for the Division if Lamar is healthy. He has proven that. 

[lone bengal]

The annoying part is they’ve invested a ton on the offensive line. Brown, Cappa and Volson should be able to move people in the run game they need to reevaluate there run scheme and Pollack. Mixon is slow and makes too much money but the good thing is RB’s are easy to find late and cheap. Brown showed some explosion when we used him. DT needs to be revamped. Hill plays way too many snaps which has contributed to his decline in play. Zack Carter offers nothing as a DT. He was supposed to be an undersized interior rusher. He gives no pass rush and gets manhandled in the run because he’s undersized. Tupou is a bottom of the roster DT.