Frank Pollack back?

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 10:57 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I've been probably one of the biggest Volson haters on this board, but he's actually been solid the second half of this past season.

In the last 7 games (after @BAL), Volson has had:
Just 1 sack allowed
Just 8 total pressures allowed
PFF pass blocking grade of 70+ in all but 2 of those games, 55-59 in the other 2.

The OTs were worse than the IOL down the stretch.

The Bengals may not be worried about replacing Volson the same way many fans are.

They likely have other areas of concern to deal with.

Next year will be Volson's 3rd season. The Bengals probably expect him to keep getting physically stronger as he heads towards his Prime age

and more developed & experienced in years 3 & 4 versus years 1 & 2.

He may already be Penciled in as Starting LG for 2024.

[KillerGoose]

(01-12-2024, 12:03 PM)depthchart Wrote: The Bengals may not be worried about replacing Volson the same way many fans are.

They likely have other areas of concern to deal with.

Next year will be Volson's 3rd season. The Bengals probably expect him to keep getting physically stronger as he heads towards his Prime age

and more developed & experienced in years 3 & 4 versus years 1 & 2.

He may already be Penciled in as Starting LG for 2024.

I don't think Volson or any of these guys are going to get much stronger physically. Diminishing returns and all that. Taking your squat from 550 to 600 is going to take some real time and concerted effort to do but it isn't going to help that much more on the field. They are just trying to prevent injuries at this point for the most part.

Volson's improvements will come from consistent technique, conditioning and film study. His athleticism is already peaking. He is who he is physically. 

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2024, 12:03 PM)depthchart Wrote: The Bengals may not be worried about replacing Volson the same way many fans are.

They likely have other areas of concern to deal with.

Next year will be Volson's 3rd season. The Bengals probably expect him to keep getting physically stronger as he heads towards his Prime age

and more developed & experienced in years 3 & 4 versus years 1 & 2.

He may already be Penciled in as Starting LG for 2024.

I would bet that especially if Pollack is still here that 4 of the starting spots are locked.
Only one up in the air is RT with Jonah hitting FA.
If Jonah is retained, he'll be the starting RT.
If Jonah leaves, it will be either an outside vet (probably more of a value price) or a Rd 1 draft pick or Rd 2 at the latest.
Bengals haven't typically liked to put a fresh rookie right into a starter spot without some type of vet already in place, as they did with Nick Scott and Jordan Battle.

If we're going to see any OL drafted, it will be either starting RT and/or depth.

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 12:26 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don't think Volson or any of these guys are going to get much stronger physically. Diminishing returns and all that. Taking your squat from 550 to 600 is going to take some real time and concerted effort to do but it isn't going to help that much more on the field. They are just trying to prevent injuries at this point for the most part.

Volson's improvements will come from consistent technique, conditioning and film study. His athleticism is already peaking. He is who he is physically. 

I am talking more about the natural physical development that takes place when a young man say age 23 or 24 years old heads

into ages 25, 26 & 27. I know that I gained some weight and strength heading into my mid twenties without working out.

Natural strength versus weight lifting numbers. Then the playing experience gained as well.

I remember former Bengal Offensive Lineman Anthony Collins was much better in years 3 & 4 versus years 1 and 2 and more

ready to play against 30 year old men when he was a few years older versus just right out of College.

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 12:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I would bet that especially if Pollack is still here that 4 of the starting spots are locked.
Only one up in the air is RT with Jonah hitting FA.
If Jonah is retained, he'll be the starting RT.
If Jonah leaves, it will be either an outside vet (probably more of a value price) or a Rd 1 draft pick or Rd 2 at the latest.
Bengals haven't typically liked to put a fresh rookie right into a starter spot without some type of vet already in place, as they did with Nick Scott and Jordan Battle.

If we're going to see any OL drafted, it will be either starting RT and/or depth.

If the rest of the NFL has somewhat given up on Jonah as a Left Tackle (and he and his Agent realize it) then 

the Bengals Right Tackle money offer may not look so bad to them and he ends up staying with the Bengals.

[KillerGoose]

(01-12-2024, 12:48 PM)depthchart Wrote: I am talking more about the natural physical development that takes place when a young man say age 23 or 24 years old heads

into ages 25, 26 & 27. I know that I gained some weight and strength heading into my mid twenties without working out.

Natural strength versus weight lifting numbers. Then the playing experience gained as well.

I remember former Bengal Offensive Lineman Anthony Collins was much better in years 3 & 4 versus years 1 and 2 and more

ready to play against 30 year old men when he was a few years older versus just right out of College.

I think we're talking about the same thing and probably just view it differently. I view it as pretty much all experience and technique. Most of these offensive linemen are physical freaks coming out of college. Those S&C programs are some of the best in the world when we talk about top schools. The players get better because they refine their game. Doing things with correct technique instead of muscling it can make a physically weaker person feel incredibly strong. So, I think Volson is already the type of athlete he is going to be. That won't change any but I think he can improve if he is able to refine the finer points of his game. 

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 12:53 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think we're talking about the same thing and probably just view it differently. I view it as pretty much all experience and technique. Most of these offensive linemen are physical freaks coming out of college. Those S&C programs are some of the best in the world when we talk about top schools. The players get better because they refine their game. Doing things with correct technique instead of muscling it can make a physically weaker person feel incredibly strong. So, I think Volson is already the type of athlete he is going to be. That won't change any but I think he can improve if he is able to refine the finer points of his game. 

I see your points and at age 25 Volson is likely heading right into his full grown Man years.

I simply remember myself, others from College (at around ages 22, 23) still slender (so to speak) only to start "filling out"

 to become stronger and looking more like grown men than the high schoolers we used to still be built like even in College.

Age 22 and 6 foot 170

Age 26 and 6 foot 185

Without working out constantly and more muscle weight added than fat.  Naturally gained weight and strength over those few years.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-12-2024, 12:52 PM)depthchart Wrote: If the rest of the NFL has somewhat given up on Jonah as a Left Tackle (and he and his Agent realize it) then 

the Bengals Right Tackle money offer may not look so bad to them and he ends up staying with the Bengals.

Please no. Jonah has to go regardless of what side he's playing.

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 01:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Please no. Jonah has to go regardless of what side he's playing.

I would like a dominant upgrade as well.

Is a better option out there that the Bengals will want to pursue ?

Will the Bengals first give Jonah some type of good RT money offer ?

I think that they will first try to keep him then look elsewhere if they are just too far apart but maybe 

they just want to part ways.

If Jonah flat out wants to play Left Tackle then that would settle it and he gets replaced.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-12-2024, 01:16 PM)depthchart Wrote: I would like a dominant upgrade as well.

Is a better option out there that the Bengals will want to pursue ?

Will the Bengals first give Jonah some type of good RT money offer ?

I think that they will first try to keep him then look elsewhere if they are just too far apart but maybe 

they just want to part ways.

If Jonah flat out wants to play Left Tackle then that would settle it and he gets replaced.

That LT/RT pay gap isn't what it used to be.

In 2023, 10th highest paid RT made $16.5m/yr. The 10th highest paid LT made $17m/yr.

I'm not even saying a dominant upgrade, though that would be nice. I just want a guy who is at least a quality starter. Jonah isn't that and continuing to throw more money and more starts at him isn't going to change that. We finally got out from under the ill advised 5th year option pickup. Don't dive right back in with him.

We complain about pass protection, we complain about our run game... and then we try to talk each other into keeping Pollack, keeping Volson, keeping Jonah, and keeping Mixon... and somehow still expect things to change. It's madness.

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 01:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That LT/RT pay gap isn't what it used to be.

In 2023, 10th highest paid RT made $16.5m/yr. The 10th highest paid LT made $17m/yr.

I'm not even saying a dominant upgrade, though that would be nice. I just want a guy who is at least a quality starter. Jonah isn't that and continuing to throw more money and more starts at him isn't going to change that. We finally got out from under the ill advised 5th year option pickup. Don't dive right back in with him.

We complain about pass protection, we complain about our run game... and then we try to talk each other into keeping Pollack, keeping Volson, keeping Jonah, and keeping Mixon... and somehow still expect things to change. It's madness.

I'm sure you remember the Bobby Hart signing from a few years back as the Right Tackle starting option.

The signings of Orlando Brown, Karras and Cappa recently say that they are trying harder than they were to get it right.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Jonah and the Right Tackle position this time around.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2024, 12:52 PM)depthchart Wrote: If the rest of the NFL has somewhat given up on Jonah as a Left Tackle (and he and his Agent realize it) then 

the Bengals Right Tackle money offer may not look so bad to them and he ends up staying with the Bengals.

Bengals seem to prefer hovering around $7 mill (or less) a year for their RT position, as that's what they gave Reiff and Collins prior to shifting Jonah.

Some other FAs I'd be looking to see if would be in the range the Bengals are willing to budget for:
- George Fant - Dude has played solid for the Texans, allowing just 3 sacks and 30 total pressures on 559 pass block snaps. Currently playing on just 1 year, $3 mill deal. I think getting him under $7 mill should be very feasible, especially at 31 years old.

- Trent Brown - Hasn't played RT recently but has been a very good blocker still at 30 years old. With the regime change in NE, I can see him wanting to play for a contender again. Currently with NE was making $6.5 mill APY. I think he's another dude who should easily fit in the price point the Bengals want.

- Jermaine Eluemunor - Very good past two years with Raiders. Has averaged 4-5 sacks and under 28 total pressures each season the past two years, playing over 1100 pass blocking snaps in that window. He's just under the age threshold the Bengals like, at 29 years not turning 30 until December. Currently playing on $3 mill APY deal.

I'd be looking at all these guys as a 1-2 year stopgap if anything while the Bengals potentially groom an early-round draft pick.

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 02:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals seem to prefer hovering around $7 mill (or less) a year for their RT position, as that's what they gave Reiff and Collins prior to shifting Jonah.

Some other FAs I'd be looking to see if would be in the range the Bengals are willing to budget for:
- George Fant - Dude has played solid for the Texans, allowing just 3 sacks and 30 total pressures on 559 pass block snaps. Currently playing on just 1 year, $3 mill deal. I think getting him under $7 mill should be very feasible, especially at 31 years old.

- Trent Brown - Hasn't played RT recently but has been a very good blocker still at 30 years old. With the regime change in NE, I can see him wanting to play for a contender again. Currently with NE was making $6.5 mill APY. I think he's another dude who should easily fit in the price point the Bengals want.

- Jermaine Eluemunor - Very good past two years with Raiders. Has averaged 4-5 sacks and under 28 total pressures each season the past two years, playing over 1100 pass blocking snaps in that window. He's just under the age threshold the Bengals like, at 29 years not turning 30 until December. Currently playing on $3 mill APY deal.

I'd be looking at all these guys as a 1-2 year stopgap if anything while the Bengals potentially groom an early-round draft pick.

So do you see Jonah's price tag exceeding the $7 mill (or less) level -or- is he one of those $7 mill (or less) options ?

[mhbsavant]

(01-08-2024, 08:57 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Completely agree Pollack needs to go

I hate how we sit on our hands so much! it is our achilles heal! If Pollack was a coaching one of the playoff teams, he'd be gone after the playoffs ended

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-12-2024, 01:20 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I'm pretty sure Pollack is the OL coach preferred by Duke, Katie, and Troy. If Zac got his choice, he'd have the FO get creative and find a way to get Callahan out of Cleveland. He was Zac's #1 target when he got here in 2019.

Well then, let Zac have his way and I think I can speak for most of us that this would be what most of the fans would want as well.

(01-12-2024, 04:47 AM)GodFather Wrote: God one could only wish. He has a great track record with how he shapes and schemes OL. That would be too good to be true and we will be stuck with Mr Glass Eater continuing to hold this offense back.  

If we were able to tempt Bill Callahan away from the Browns this would be my biggest wish this Offseason for sure.

Probably won't happen though and we are stuck with Pollack.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-12-2024, 01:37 PM)depthchart Wrote: I'm sure you remember the Bobby Hart signing from a few years back as the Right Tackle starting option.

The signings of Orlando Brown, Karras and Cappa recently say that they are trying harder than they were to get it right.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Jonah and the Right Tackle position this time around.

It was actually the Bobby Hart RE-signing that was the real problem. He played for 1yr/$1m in 2018, was predictably bad, and then they still re-signed him in the next offseason and he continued to be bad for more money. 

Re-signing Jonah would be even worse. Not only would it be for more money and we've already seen a lot more of him so should clearly know better, but when Bobby Hart was re-signed we weren't very good and we didn't expect to be great. Now we need to be good because expectations are we need to be good.

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 02:46 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It was actually the Bobby Hart RE-signing that was the real problem. He played for 1yr/$1m in 2018, was predictably bad, and then they still re-signed him in the next offseason and he continued to be bad for more money. 

Re-signing Jonah would be even worse. Not only would it be for more money and we've already seen a lot more of him so should clearly know better, but when Bobby Hart was re-signed we weren't very good and we didn't expect to be great. Now we need to be good because expectations are we need to be good.

I see your point.

The Bengals are in a Super Bowl window (so to speak) and may need to hit the gas to win.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2024, 02:21 PM)depthchart Wrote: So do you see Jonah's price tag exceeding the $7 mill (or less) level -or- is he one of those $7 mill (or less) options ?

I do think Jonah will at least seek $10+ mill.
Spotrac has his estimated market value at $14.9 mill APY.
If one of these other guys is willing to come in for less than $7 mill right at the start of FA negotiations, I'm grabbing them rather than waiting to see if Jonah's price tag comes down.
Trent Brown especially can play both LT and RT, so it's not like Jonah would be the only guy with that versatility.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-12-2024, 02:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals seem to prefer hovering around $7 mill (or less) a year for their RT position, as that's what they gave Reiff and Collins prior to shifting Jonah.

Some other FAs I'd be looking to see if would be in the range the Bengals are willing to budget for:
- George Fant - Dude has played solid for the Texans, allowing just 3 sacks and 30 total pressures on 559 pass block snaps. Currently playing on just 1 year, $3 mill deal. I think getting him under $7 mill should be very feasible, especially at 31 years old.

- Trent Brown - Hasn't played RT recently but has been a very good blocker still at 30 years old. With the regime change in NE, I can see him wanting to play for a contender again. Currently with NE was making $6.5 mill APY. I think he's another dude who should easily fit in the price point the Bengals want.

- Jermaine Eluemunor - Very good past two years with Raiders. Has averaged 4-5 sacks and under 28 total pressures each season the past two years, playing over 1100 pass blocking snaps in that window. He's just under the age threshold the Bengals like, at 29 years not turning 30 until December. Currently playing on $3 mill APY deal.

I'd be looking at all these guys as a 1-2 year stopgap if anything while the Bengals potentially groom an early-round draft pick.

If the Bengals plan to seek their long term RT in the draft, I would be completely content with the team signing any one of those three for 2 years to bridge the transition.  Even if they liked one of them well enough for a 3 year deal, and went to a mid-round, longer development option at T in the draft, I think that it could work for the team.  

[007BengalsFan]

(01-12-2024, 01:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: ...We complain about pass protection, we complain about our run game... and then we try to talk each other into keeping Pollack, keeping Volson, keeping Jonah, and keeping Mixon... and somehow still expect things to change. It's madness.

I dont understand it either.  The offensive line is still not good but lets bring everyone of those guys back and expect a different result next year.  Last year the excuse was the offensive line wasnt healthy.  This year everyone comes back with the exception of adding a multi year Pro Bowler Orlando Brown jr.  Everyone was fairly healthy all year and the line still isnt good.  We need to try something different because the current approach we are taking with the offensive line is not working.  Frank Pollack has been here long enough to prove himself as an offensive line coach.  None of his lines have been that good.  Its time to get rid of Pollack and try a different philosophy from a different coach.