Offensive Line 2024- Does It Need Fixing?

[BFritz21]

We need a better offensive line, and I'm seeing a lot of people here saying that we'll roll with the same offensive line next season with maybe only replacing Jonah.

Am I the only one that's pissed off that we might be keeping the same line without much change?

Burrow took us to a Super Bowl and an AFC Championship game with horrible lines, and we're not selling out to protect him?

That's what's confusing me most: we know what Burrow can do, so why wouldn't we sell out to protect him? The writing seems like it's on the wall: protect Burrow and win multiple Super Bowls.

I get it that last season was supposed to be dramatically improved and they shit the bed, so why wouldn't we expect the same this season?

Karras improved his play a lot sand only allowed one sack in the last eleven games after allowing five in the first six, but none of our linemen earned a PFF grade over 70.

Who's to say they won't collapse again next season?

Are there ways to assure they'll be good enough next season? Will it only take firing Pollack? Will we even do that? Is he the problem?

How do we make sure that 2024 isn't another wasted season with Burrow in his prime and no line?

Who would you keep? Who would you bring in to replace them?

Will we have a decent line in 24? Will it be good?

[WeezyBengal]

I mean what are you going to do?

Cappa, Karras, Orlando, and Volson most likely aren't going anywhere. They are all decent players who were invested in as free agents.

You can draft or sign a guy to play RT, but chances are they won't be as good as Jonah (at least year 1 anyway).

The only other option is to somehow change the scheme or fire Pollack - both of which look like they aren't going to happen.

I wouldn't bank on it improving much.

The real issue is the depth is ass too. All of our starters played pretty much all season, thank God. That's rare and next year will be even worse if and when our depth is tested.

[BFritz21]

(01-12-2024, 03:20 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I mean what are you going to do?

Cappa, Karras, Orlando, and Volson most likely aren't going anywhere. They are all decent players who were invested in as free agents.

You can draft or sign a guy to play RT, but chances are they won't be as good as Jonah (at least year 1 anyway).

The only other option is to somehow change the scheme or fire Pollack - both of which look like they aren't going to happen.

I wouldn't bank on it improving much.

The real issue is the depth is ass too. All of our starters played pretty much all season, thank God. That's rare and next year will be even worse if and when our depth is tested.

So likely another season of Burrow in his prime wasted?

[tms]

I will say, I don't think their reputation is as bad as it used to be. At least outside of Cincinnati it isn't. The fact they started basically every game together helped. Not that it should have, just that it did. And while Burrow getting hurt wasn't a good thing, nobody blames that on them- which is saying a lot. More a freak injury that could've happened to any quarterback. The calf definitely was.

All of which is to say that maybe it's not as much of a priority as we think, especially for those of us with 2020-21 PTSD. They are a bit better. They still have issues in PP but the running game is relatively solid (when they use it!). It's a devil you know scenario now, whereas it used to be a disaster waiting to happen. I take some comfort in that. Still tied for 7th in the league with 50 sacks allowed (Giants led with 85) but they did seem to be almost passable this year. They need to learn to work better as a unit with their quarterback and pick up their assignments, etc., but I think we're past the stage of a complete talent overhaul.

[J24]

Yes; they need radically change thier IOL in particular.

I would cut Cappa and sign Jon Runyan from Green Bay! Runyan is a better Pass Blocker and a better Athlete than Cappa.

On top of this we need to draft a RT and a C in the early RDs. Also would draft/sign a swing Tackle!

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-12-2024, 03:37 PM)tms Wrote: I will say, I don't think their reputation is as bad as it used to be. At least outside of Cincinnati it isn't. The fact they started basically every game together helped. Not that it should have, just that it did. And while Burrow getting hurt wasn't a good thing, nobody blames that on them- which is saying a lot. More a freak injury that could've happened to any quarterback. The calf definitely was.

All of which is to say that maybe it's not as much of a priority as we think, especially for those of us with 2020-21 PTSD. They are a bit better. They still have issues in PP but the running game is relatively solid when they use it. It's a devil you know scenario, whereas it used to be a disaster waiting to happen. I take some comfort in that. Still tied for 7th in the league with 50 sacks allowed (Giants led with 85). They did seem to be almost passable this year. They need to learn to work better as a unit with their quarterback and pick up their assignments, etc., but I think we're past the stage of a complete talent overhaul.

Even being massively inflated by Week 18 with our starters vs their backups (we went from 3.8ypc to 4.0ypc as a team), we finished 22nd in rushing YPC. That's not relatively solid. Even less so when you realize that before playing against backups in Week 18, we were 27th in rushing YPC as a team.

[tms]

(01-12-2024, 03:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even being massively inflated by Week 18 with our starters vs their backups (we went from 3.8ypc to 4.0ypc as a team), we finished 22nd in rushing YPC. That's not relatively solid. Even less so when you realize that before playing against backups in Week 18, we were 27th in rushing YPC as a team.

Yeah it's hard to judge them when they were running so much out of the gun. I think the entire offense suffered from the fact that Burrow/Browning was hardly ever under center, the play action was not used to any effect (it couldn't be since the surprise factor was almost nil). We ran a ton of RPOs but even those weren't particularly well executed. We can cherry-pick isolated stats until we're blue in the face but I see those as more of a symptom than a cause. I think a general change in scheme (if not philosophy) might be more urgent than a specific change in players. Jmo. 

[Whatever]

(01-12-2024, 03:08 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: We need a better offensive line, and I'm seeing a lot of people here saying that we'll roll with the same offensive line next season with maybe only replacing Jonah.

Am I the only one that's pissed off that we might be keeping the same line without much change?

Burrow took us to a Super Bowl and an AFC Championship game with horrible lines, and we're not selling out to protect him?

That's what's confusing me most: we know what Burrow can do, so why wouldn't we sell out to protect him? The writing seems like it's on the wall: protect Burrow and win multiple Super Bowls.

I get it that last season was supposed to be dramatically improved and they shit the bed, so why wouldn't we expect the same this season?

Karras improved his play a lot sand only allowed one sack in the last eleven games after allowing five in the first six, but none of our linemen earned a PFF grade over 70.

Who's to say they won't collapse again next season?

Are there ways to assure they'll be good enough next season? Will it only take firing Pollack? Will we even do that? Is he the problem?

How do we make sure that 2024 isn't another wasted season with Burrow in his prime and no line?

Who would you keep? Who would you bring in to replace them?

Will we have a decent line in 24? Will it be good?

Because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Joe took us to the SB with a trash OL.  In the two years since, we've focused on upgrading the OL and watched the RB's, TE's, and WR's get worse.  We've watched the team get worse right along with those positions.  We've regressed. There has been absolutely zero correlation between OL upgrades and the team winning more football games.  Fantasy land where Joe Burrow can just stand back there untouched for 4 seconds every down and make the latest 7th round scrub/Golden Binns winner look like Jerry Rice doesn't exist.  

Three out of our 5 starting OL are at least solid.  Volson sucks.  Williams sucks and is an UFA.  Do we need to replace Jonah?  Yes.  Should we replace him with a better player or a draft pick with the potential to be better? Yes.  Should we sell out to make wholesale OL changes again to the detriment of other positions?  No.

[*jason*]

(01-12-2024, 04:16 PM)Whatever Wrote: Because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Joe took us to the SB with a trash OL.  In the two years since, we've focused on upgrading the OL and watched the RB's, TE's, and WR's get worse.  We've watched the team get worse right along with those positions.  We've regressed. There has been absolutely zero correlation between OL upgrades and the team winning more football games.  Fantasy land where Joe Burrow can just stand back there untouched for 4 seconds every down and make the latest 7th round scrub/Golden Binns winner look like Jerry Rice doesn't exist.  

Three out of our 5 starting OL are at least solid.  Volson sucks.  Williams sucks and is an UFA.  Do we need to replace Jonah?  Yes.  Should we replace him with a better player or a draft pick with the potential to be better? Yes.  Should we sell out to make wholesale OL changes again to the detriment of other positions?  No.

I think the O line has literally just become a talking point. They are blamed for just about every shortfall this team has. They've gone about as all our as possible to upgrade it. I don't know what else to do other than suck so bad as a franchise that they can land the next Sewell... Whoever that is.

[Joelist]

Obviously we need RT and the depth needs a refresh but most of the need (as play this season made obvious) is schematic. Notice that in the small group of games where we were more balanced run/pass and more balanced shotgun/under center EVERYTHING looked a lot better including the OL. We were less predictable and also let the OL block downhill more - our usual modes of 65%+ shotgun and pass combine with predictability to make it VERY difficult for ANY OL to look good.

[Whatever]

(01-12-2024, 04:36 PM)jason Wrote: I think the O line has literally just become a talking point. They are blamed for just about every shortfall this team has. They've gone about as all our as possible to upgrade it. I don't know what else to do other than suck so bad as a franchise that they can land the next Sewell... Whoever that is.

If your 5+ years on various Practice Squads, league minimum making, never played a snap before this year backup QB can come in and post a 98.4 passer rating and have a winning record behind your offensive line, then your #1 overall pick, elite, highest paid QB in the league should have no difficulty operating behind that same offensive line.

[*jason*]

(01-12-2024, 04:56 PM)Whatever Wrote: If your 5+ years on various Practice Squads, league minimum making, never played a snap before this year backup QB can come in and post a 98.4 passer rating and have a winning record behind your offensive line, then your #1 overall pick, elite, highest paid QB in the league should have no difficulty operating behind that same offensive line.

Agreed

[*ochocincos*]

I only see up to 4 things happening:
1) Bring in a different OL coach other than Pollack (This doesn't seem likely given Taylor's statements this week)
2) Bring in a new RT and let Jonah walk
3) Bring in another guy to take/compete for LG over Volson (not likely, at least as long as Pollack is OL coach)
4) Changing the playcalling to allow for more blockers inside and/or more of a WCO to get the ball out on shorter routes and let the receivers make plays. (Also unlikely given Taylor seems to like his style of offense he has the past few years)

OBJ, Karras, and Cappa are firmly solidified into their starting roles. None of those will change.

[007BengalsFan]

(01-12-2024, 04:36 PM)jason Wrote: I think the O line has literally just become a talking point. They are blamed for just about every shortfall this team has. They've gone about as all our as possible to upgrade it. I don't know what else to do other than suck so bad as a franchise that they can land the next Sewell... Whoever that is.

The line still wasnt very good.  We couldnt run the ball effectively.  We finished 31st in rush yards per game.  The offensive line still gave up the 8th most sacks at 50.  Im not sure what the issue is but something is still not right.  Pollack hasnt been able to field a good offensive line since he has been here so I would start with getting rid of him.  At RT Jonah is gone so if we can upgrade the RT spot, that would help as well.

[BFritz21]

(01-12-2024, 04:16 PM)Whatever Wrote: Because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Joe took us to the SB with a trash OL.  In the two years since, we've focused on upgrading the OL and watched the RB's, TE's, and WR's get worse.  We've watched the team get worse right along with those positions.  We've regressed. There has been absolutely zero correlation between OL upgrades and the team winning more football games.  Fantasy land where Joe Burrow can just stand back there untouched for 4 seconds every down and make the latest 7th round scrub/Golden Binns winner look like Jerry Rice doesn't exist.  

Three out of our 5 starting OL are at least solid.  Volson sucks.  Williams sucks and is an UFA.  Do we need to replace Jonah?  Yes.  Should we replace him with a better player or a draft pick with the potential to be better? Yes.  Should we sell out to make wholesale OL changes again to the detriment of other positions?  No.

How have the RBs, WRs, and TEs gotten worse?

Besides Mixon and Williams, who did we have at back? Perine? I like Chase Brown more than Perine. He's more complete.

We have all the receivers that did anything that season, plus more.

Tight ends are better; I'll give you that.

We have average-to-above-average weapons outside of Chase and Chase makes their lives a lot easier.

We don't need Burrow to be able to drop back, yawn, then throw, but we do need to be able to have a bit of time back there.

He has never had a good line and took us to the Super Bowl and AFCC, so doesn't it make sense that the line is the missing piece?

[*jason*]

(01-12-2024, 05:03 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The line still wasnt very good.  We couldnt run the ball effectively.  We finished 31st in rush yards per game.  The offensive line still gave up the 8th most sacks at 50.  Im not sure what the issue is but something is still not right.  Pollack hasnt been able to field a good offensive line since he has been here so I would start with getting rid of him.  At RT Jonah is gone so if we can upgrade the RT spot, that would help as well.

I'm not a Pollack fan myself... His greatest attributes seem to be that he isn't Jim Turner, and he coached a line of all pros in Dallas.

[BFritz21]

(01-12-2024, 05:09 PM)jason Wrote: I'm not a Pollack fan myself... His greatest attributes seem to be that he isn't Jim Turner, and he coached a line of all pros in Dallas.

I've been that way and just kept going with that as justifications.

I'm so biased towards him that I'm also tempted to say give him one more chance, but I'm at the point where it's not even worth wasting another year of Burrow's potential.

Give Burrow time and he'll make look defenses look stupid with Chase and the other receivers.

[Whatever]

(01-12-2024, 05:07 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: How have the RBs, WRs, and TEs gotten worse?

Besides Mixon and Williams, who did we have at back? Perine? I like Chase Brown more than Perine. He's more complete.

We have all the receivers that did anything that season, plus more.

Tight ends are better; I'll give you that.

We have average-to-above-average weapons outside of Chase and Chase makes their lives a lot easier.

We don't need Burrow to be able to drop back, yawn, then throw, but we do need to be able to have a bit of time back there.

He has never had a good line and took us to the Super Bowl and AFCC, so doesn't it make sense that the line is the missing piece?

RB years are like dog years.  Two years of heavy usage has taken it's toll on Mixon.  Perrine was better and more complete than Brown.

Boyd and Higgins(to a lesser extent) have both regressed.  Boyd due to age.  Higgins due to his rash of injuries.  Just because you have the same names doesn't mean they are the same quality of player.

Why do you think it is that Josh Allen was a borderline bust until the Bills got Diggs?  Why did Tua go from bust to MVP candidate after the Dolphins got Cheetah?  Everyone will point to Mahomes getting a ring last year after losing Hill, but fast forward to this year and now that Kelce is showing his age, he doesn't look like the same guy.  Why can Shanahan plug in any scrub QB with Deebo, Aiyuk, McCafferty,and Kittle and still be a perennial SB contender?  Why did Hurts go from zero to hero when he got Brown?

[Essex Johnson]

(01-12-2024, 03:08 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: We need a better offensive line, and I'm seeing a lot of people here saying that we'll roll with the same offensive line next season with maybe only replacing Jonah.

Am I the only one that's pissed off that we might be keeping the same line without much change?

Burrow took us to a Super Bowl and an AFC Championship game with horrible lines, and we're not selling out to protect him?

That's what's confusing me most: we know what Burrow can do, so why wouldn't we sell out to protect him? The writing seems like it's on the wall: protect Burrow and win multiple Super Bowls.

I get it that last season was supposed to be dramatically improved and they shit the bed, so why wouldn't we expect the same this season?

Karras improved his play a lot sand only allowed one sack in the last eleven games after allowing five in the first six, but none of our linemen earned a PFF grade over 70.

Who's to say they won't collapse again next season?

Are there ways to assure they'll be good enough next season? Will it only take firing Pollack? Will we even do that? Is he the problem?

How do we make sure that 2024 isn't another wasted season with Burrow in his prime and no line?

Who would you keep? Who would you bring in to replace them?

Will we have a decent line in 24? Will it be good?

Sorry I think you over value Burrow,  it takes more than a very good QB to do what we did in 2021 and 2022 , was he the engine of the team yes but not the only reason. As for oline they has positives this year over last 2 and have too much $$ invested to cut some players. I don't think they need that much change in oline outside of Volson, just hope Pollack can improve rushing and our defense bounces back. In the end this is not 2021 oline

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Not really.

Right now, we don't have:
1) A starting WR2 or WR3.
2) A starting NT.
3) A starting RT
4) A starting TE.
5) Much of a pass rush outside of Hendrickson.

Those are the main things we need to solve in FA/Draft.

The inexperienced secondary play that led to all the big plays, at least arguably, has an in house solution. Battle was great & you hope Hill/Battle improve.

Still, I'd rate CB/safety help above getting another OL starter. Brown was fine and much better late, he had an injury midseason that hampered him a bit. Karras and Cappa were both good enough to win SBs (as was Brown). Volson played a ton better as the year progressed.

Upgrading the depth would be welcome, but aside from Jonah's replacement, the OL is not a super high priority.

1) WR (need at least 2).
2) NT/DT (need at least 2).
3) RT: needs starter
4) TE: need starter.
5) CB/S (need 2).
6) Get someone who can help push the pocket/pass rush.
7) Upgrade punter.