January 8th mock no trade

[*ochocincos*]

(01-11-2024, 01:06 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Y’all said the same shit with dawand jones… sure would love to have him right now huh? Cade stover is a do it all te, a great at everything te, would INSTANTLY be te1, and the consensus te3 in draft. Te 2 on some name brand scouters.

Not me, personally.

Dawand Jones in 2023:
419 pass blocking snaps
21 total pressures allowed (3 of them sacks)


Jonah Williams, for comparison:
730 pass blocking reps
41 total pressures allowed (8 of them sacks)

Dawand Jones was right about the same number of pressures allowed as Jonah if he had played the same number of snaps.
Yes, fewer sacks projected than Jonah, which would be an improvement.
However, Dawand Jones didn't have to go against Garrett/Smith twice a year like Jonah did.
Browns also have a way better scheme and OL coach than the Bengals have when it comes to success of the OL, which is to say Jones could have performed (much) worse if he were a Bengal compared to as a Brown.

Jones did perform better though that I expected, so I'll give you that, but I don't think he's a stud, personally.

[Whatever]

(01-11-2024, 11:42 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Stover is hated bc of the history at Ohio state. Same reason Bryce young was the number 1 consensus pick when anyone with half a brain cell saw that cj stroud was better… stover isn’t elite athleticism which apparently is all teams care about anymore. He’s a phenomenal football player. But he’s not in the Kyle pitts realm so he gets downgraded.

Stover will be 24 before the season starts, is a mid athlete for his position, has some drops in his tape, and has inconsistent tape against zone.  He projects to the type of player that hangs around the league as a TE2/3 and ST'er more than a starter(especially a Day 1 impact starter).  That's why he's graded where he is.  

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2024, 11:16 AM)Whatever Wrote: Stover will be 24 before the season starts, is a mid athlete for his position, has some drops in his tape, and has inconsistent tape against zone.  He projects to the type of player that hangs around the league as a TE2/3 and ST'er more than a starter(especially a Day 1 impact starter).  That's why he's graded where he is.  

I dunno man, Stover looked pretty athletic in the games this year that I watched, but I didn't watch any dedicated deep-dive videos.
He's also put up 77 receptions for 982 yards and 10 TDs across the past 25 games.

He is older yes, but there's a reason he's considered just a mid-round prospect instead of a 1st rounder.
When you get into the middle rounds, you'll have some question marks.

[Jpoore]

(01-12-2024, 11:14 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Not me, personally.

Dawand Jones in 2023:
419 pass blocking snaps
21 total pressures allowed (3 of them sacks)


Jonah Williams, for comparison:
730 pass blocking reps
41 total pressures allowed (8 of them sacks)

Dawand Jones was right about the same number of pressures allowed as Jonah if he had played the same number of snaps.
Yes, fewer sacks projected than Jonah, which would be an improvement.
However, Dawand Jones didn't have to go against Garrett/Smith twice a year like Jonah did.
Browns also have a way better scheme and OL coach than the Bengals have when it comes to success of the OL, which is to say Jones could have performed (much) worse if he were a Bengal compared to as a Brown.

Jones did perform better though that I expected, so I'll give you that, but I don't think he's a stud, personally.

Jones took a WHILE to get going at osu, so I expected a okay rookie season. Also he did go agaisnt tj watt. I expect him to have a much better 2nd season

(01-12-2024, 11:16 AM)Whatever Wrote: Stover will be 24 before the season starts, is a mid athlete for his position, has some drops in his tape, and has inconsistent tape against zone.  He projects to the type of player that hangs around the league as a TE2/3 and ST'er more than a starter(especially a Day 1 impact starter).  That's why he's graded where he is.  

So was Calvin Ridley… he’s not an elite athlete but he’s a b+ athlete. He also played lber and de for Ohio state so yeah he’s gonna have a larger age than you would like. Not sure where you see inconsistent tape… and that’s unequivocally false. He profiles like George little. Someone who is a great blocker, can get open and never and I mean never goes down first contact. I expect him to be a major riser come draft season.

[Whatever]

(01-12-2024, 08:39 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Jones took a WHILE to get going at osu, so I expected a okay rookie season. Also he did go agaisnt tj watt. I expect him to have a much better 2nd season
So was Calvin Ridley…  he’s not an elite athlete but he’s a b+ athlete. He also played lber and de for Ohio state so yeah he’s gonna have a larger age than you would like.  Not sure where you see inconsistent tape… and that’s unequivocally false. He profiles like George little. Someone who is a great blocker, can get open and never and I mean never goes down first contact. I expect him to be a major riser come draft season.

Watt abused Jones for 2 sacks and 7 QB hits between the two meetings.

Read draft profiles other than PFN.  

[Jpoore]

(01-13-2024, 02:00 AM)Whatever Wrote: Watt abused Jones for 2 sacks and 7 QB hits between the two meetings.

Read draft profiles other than PFN.  

That was in his first start. Next matchup 0 sacks, 0 qb hits, 0 pressures.but if you wanna go off others draft reports nfl.com had him as will be a plus starter. I can add more if you like.

[*Synric*]

(01-12-2024, 03:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I dunno man, Stover looked pretty athletic in the games this year that I watched, but I didn't watch any dedicated deep-dive videos.
He's also put up 77 receptions for 982 yards and 10 TDs across the past 25 games.

He is older yes, but there's a reason he's considered just a mid-round prospect instead of a 1st rounder.
When you get into the middle rounds, you'll have some question marks.

Traits translate stats don't. Stover has alot of wide open schemed throws. I would guess a large portion are flare routes during boots. His YAC yards are all power and not agility which is less likely to translate to the pros where everyone is bigger than college.

Cade Stover is a slightly more explosive Benn Sinnott. Length, short area quickness, and body control are all issues here. He's also new to the position so is ability to read coverages is still a work in progress as well. Stover is an early day 3 guy in my book but as bad class will drag him up into day 2.


Don't get me started on Ja'Tavion Sanders... There's bad blocking then there's not trying. Sanders barely puts in effort. 

[Jpoore]

(01-14-2024, 10:07 AM)Synric Wrote: Traits translate stats don't. Stover has alot of wide open schemed throws. I would guess a large portion are flare routes during boots. His YAC yards are all power and not agility which is less likely to translate to the pros where everyone is bigger than college.

Cade Stover is a slightly more explosive Benn Sinnott. Length, short area quickness, and body control are all issues here. He's also new to the position so is ability to read coverages is still a work in progress as well. Stover is an early day 3 guy in my book but as bad class will drag him up into day 2.


Don't get me started on Ja'Tavion Sanders... There's bad blocking then there's not trying. Sanders barely puts in effort. 

Disagree with a lot of this. The general osu te you absolutely nailed. It’s all flare/flat routes, no seams, nothing.Stover is the exception to the osu te rule. Stover will run a (mostly) complete route tree. Teams also have to respect his blocking so he’s not gonna be a oh he’s just blocking or just catching. His yac is shrugging off tackles yes, but nothing that says he won’t be able to do that at the nfl level either.he knows how to use his body. He’s new to the position, but he did play lber and de at osu, so he understands zone and man coverage well, but he is a work in progress. He’s a very solid day 2 pick, and my ride or die this draft no matter where he ends up. Stover gonna be one of those picks 5 years from now who is a borderline first round pick that people are gonna ask how he fell that far.plus plus blocker, plus as a catcher, plus athlete.

Sanders is garbage as a te. He’s just a wide receiver. Not someone I’m spending a early 2nd round pick on.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-14-2024, 10:07 AM)Synric Wrote: Traits translate stats don't. Stover has alot of wide open schemed throws. I would guess a large portion are flare routes during boots. His YAC yards are all power and not agility which is less likely to translate to the pros where everyone is bigger than college.

Cade Stover is a slightly more explosive Benn Sinnott. Length, short area quickness, and body control are all issues here. He's also new to the position so is ability to read coverages is still a work in progress as well. Stover is an early day 3 guy in my book but as bad class will drag him up into day 2.


Don't get me started on Ja'Tavion Sanders... There's bad blocking then there's not trying. Sanders barely puts in effort. 

I dunno man, I thought he seemed pretty athletic and fluid in games that I watched this year.
With that said, I don't see someone who has 1st round talent.
I see Rd 3-4 guy.
I see him in the Dalton Schultz - Jake Ferguson mold.
Both of those guys aren't on the uber high end of athleticism and speed, but they are really good TEs and have really put up good numbers in the NFL this year (Schultz multiple years).

[Jpoore]

(01-14-2024, 11:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I dunno man, I thought he seemed pretty athletic and fluid in games that I watched this year.
With that said, I don't see someone who has 1st round talent.
I see Rd 3-4 guy.
I see him in the Dalton Schultz - Jake Ferguson mold.
Both of those guys aren't on the uber high end of athleticism and speed, but they are really good TEs and have really put up good numbers in the NFL this year (Schultz multiple years).

^ this. Not once did I say he was a rd1 guy. Saying he’s a rd3 guy is some shock to some people.

[*Synric*]

(01-14-2024, 11:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I dunno man, I thought he seemed pretty athletic and fluid in games that I watched this year.
With that said, I don't see someone who has 1st round talent.
I see Rd 3-4 guy.
I see him in the Dalton Schultz - Jake Ferguson mold.
Both of those guys aren't on the uber high end of athleticism and speed, but they are really good TEs and have really put up good numbers in the NFL this year (Schultz multiple years).

He's thick at a short 6'4 and 255lbs his lack body control shows up. Also I said early day 3 that's round 4 that could be dragged into day 2 which is round 3. He has alot of schemed throws. Flares, 3 yard sticks, and play action seams. Man coverage routes are few and far between and option routes are inconsistent.

Cade Stover's upside is as a run blocking H-Back. Bengals use an H-Back but they prefer a TE than can line up more as a Wide Receiver. Ja'Tavion Sanders fits the Bengals spread offense better but like I said the effort as a blocker is bad.

[Jpoore]

(01-15-2024, 07:38 AM)Synric Wrote: He's thick at a short 6'4 and 255lbs his lack body control shows up. Also I said early day 3 that's round 4 that could be dragged into day 2 which is round 3. He has alot of schemed throws. Flares, 3 yard sticks, and play action seams. Man coverage routes are few and far between and option routes are inconsistent.

Cade Stover's upside is as a run blocking H-Back. Bengals use an H-Back but they prefer a TE than can line up more as a Wide Receiver. Ja'Tavion Sanders fits the Bengals spread offense better but like I said the effort as a blocker is bad.

That is so beyond disrespectful…. Please point to these games in question as I would love to review. He has a lot of throws where you’re like how did he make that catch? Penn state 23 for example. Or plays where he has 5 forced missed tackles on one play-Penn state 22 comes to mind. Yes he isn’t thrown out wide a ton. But that’s bc he’s a in line te like George kittle. To me he becomes a top 10 te(borderline but there) within 2 years. And again if he played at osu or not wouldn’t change my mind. I’m gonna follow his career where ever he ends up. He’s just a football dude. And he’s so much better than you give him credit for,

[*Synric*]

(01-15-2024, 07:35 PM)Jpoore Wrote: That is so beyond disrespectful…. Please point to these games in question as I would love to review.  He has a lot of throws where you’re like how did he make that catch? Penn state 23 for example. Or plays where he has 5 forced missed tackles on one play-Penn state 22 comes to mind. Yes he isn’t thrown out wide a ton. But that’s bc he’s a in line te like George kittle. To me he becomes a top 10 te(borderline but there) within 2 years. And again if he played at osu or not wouldn’t change my mind. I’m gonna follow his career where ever he ends up. He’s just a football dude. And he’s so much better than you give him credit for,

Lol. Jpoore I hype up Ohio State prospects every season because they deserve it. OSU recruits top prospects and has excellent coaching. Just because I give an honest evaluation of a prospect doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful. 

Usually I have to say this to people underestimating a prospect because of the school but it is what it is... "Don't Scout the Helmet" which is your biggest issue. 

[Jpoore]

(01-15-2024, 07:48 PM)Synric Wrote: Lol. Jpoore I hype up Ohio State prospects every season because they deserve it. OSU recruits top prospects and has excellent coaching. Just because I give an honest evaluation of a prospect doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful. 

Usually I have to say this to people underestimating a prospect because of the school but it is what it is... "Don't Scout the Helmet" which is your biggest issue. 

lol I fully admit I do tend to overhype SOME osu prospects. I try to think I learn from it(I had no interest in trevyon Henderson, Denzel Burke, or ebuka this cycle, and am out on Micheal hall jr early) but Cade stover is a player I haven’t felt this strong about since probably Micheal Thomas…I just see a guy with very few holes in his game outside of long speed. At worst he’s Dawson knox(bleacher report has his comp at that) and I think that’s his floor. I may be tripping but haven’t felt this good about a te prospect from osu in my lifetime. He’s my ride or die wherever he ends up.remember he is still learning thr position so it stands to reason he will continue to get better.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-15-2024, 07:38 AM)Synric Wrote: He's thick at a short 6'4 and 255lbs his lack body control shows up. Also I said early day 3 that's round 4 that could be dragged into day 2 which is round 3. He has alot of schemed throws. Flares, 3 yard sticks, and play action seams. Man coverage routes are few and far between and option routes are inconsistent.

Cade Stover's upside is as a run blocking H-Back. Bengals use an H-Back but they prefer a TE than can line up more as a Wide Receiver. Ja'Tavion Sanders fits the Bengals spread offense better but like I said the effort as a blocker is bad.

He still had looked good in the receptions I've seen him make.
The things you list don't really sound like detriments to me, just 1) that's what Ohio St's offensive playcalling asked of him, and 2) he was able to succeed in what he was asked to do.

His testing numbers may reveal he's less of an athlete than I thought, but he seems like a mid-round target to me.
Gimme him, Hudson, and Sample and I think that's a solid TE room for 2024.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-10-2024, 04:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: I'm simply stating what the trends are.  Is your point that DT's and TE's have less talent than players at other positions and that's why they tend to be slow starters?  

my position is less about position and more about who you draft... learning curves go out the door when you ended up drafting a player that is not the quality of the pick...I seriously doubt in a draft room they are talking learning curve of a position, they are talking ability physical and mental.