I'm truly tired of hearing the fix the offensive line crowd!

[*ochocincos*]

(02-02-2024, 10:40 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Its really hard to pinpoint exactly the issue..    we keep adding quality talent but the results dont seem much improved.     If pollock isnt the issue as he appears to be then its either play design/calling or people going off script from whats being called.

I really cannot imagine the bolded being the case.
That's something that would REALLY get to the coaches and result in a benching.

[KillerGoose]

(02-02-2024, 02:49 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: RBs cant get going if you dont call run plays though... we seemed to be running the ball pretty well when we actually ran it

RB's can get going whenever. The run doesn't have to be established - it either works or it doesn't. On average, the more carries Mixon received this year, the worse he performed for example. This is kind of missing the problem with the RB room, though, which is that there is no one except for maybe Chase Brown that can generate yardage on their own. Mixon/Williams/Evans??? are not capable of consistently making guys miss or breaking tackles to get that extra yardage. They get you what the line gives them. Cincinnati will need to upgrade that room at some point in order to see more improvement in the run game. 

[XenoMorph]

(02-02-2024, 04:04 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: RB's can get going whenever. The run doesn't have to be established - it either works or it doesn't. On average, the more carries Mixon received this year, the worse he performed for example. This is kind of missing the problem with the RB room, though, which is that there is no one except for maybe Chase Brown that can generate yardage on their own. Mixon/Williams/Evans??? are not capable of consistently making guys miss or breaking tackles to get that extra yardage. They get you what the line gives them. Cincinnati will need to upgrade that room at some point in order to see more improvement in the run game. 

Or hve a Line that run block better

We constantly abandon the run it seems and dont have the OL to pass every down

[KillerGoose]

(02-02-2024, 04:24 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Or hve a Line that run block better

We constantly abandon the run it seems  and dont have the OL to pass every down

I am personally not too upset with the run blocking. I've slowly been making my way back through the season watching All-22 and while not outstanding or anything, I am not blaming the offensive line for lack of run production as much as I am the RBs. The run game Cincinnati uses fits their linemen, at least. Primarily gap with duos being their base run. These guys are generating double teams and getting vertical, and they are doing a fine job of it. I am blaming the RBs for leaving yardage on the field. 

Pass blocking is an issue but I also think it's exacerbated by the pass game philosophy Cincinnati has. 

[XenoMorph]

(02-02-2024, 04:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I am personally not too upset with the run blocking. I've slowly been making my way back through the season watching All-22 and while not outstanding or anything, I am not blaming the offensive line for lack of run production as much as I am the RBs. The run game Cincinnati uses fits their linemen, at least. Primarily gap with duos being their base run. These guys are generating double teams and getting vertical, and they are doing a fine job of it. I am blaming the RBs for leaving yardage on the field. 

Pass blocking is an issue but I also think it's exacerbated by the pass game philosophy Cincinnati has. 

which brings it back to play calling/design

[KillerGoose]

(02-02-2024, 04:41 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: which brings it back to play calling/design

Somewhat, yes, but what they are doing is intentional and not just being bad at their job. It's not that easy to alleviate. Burrow is involved in creating the playbook each offseason. This is a good thing, you always want your starting QB to be consulted on what is going in. Up to this point, Burrow has communicated he loves sending five out into routes, sitting in shotgun and spreading the defense out. That's his game, but that game also opens his offensive line up to protection issues because they are all on an island. Burrow has spoken about how sacks can be misleading and aren't all worth the same, which I agree with, so they are taking a calculated risk when they do this. The way I read it is that they are betting the production they get from Burrow in this offense is going to offset the amount of sacks he will take. Obviously they don't want him getting sacked 50+ times but I think coaching would be okay with Burrow taking 35-ish sacks each season given the volume that they throw and their style. 

[*ochocincos*]

(02-02-2024, 04:51 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Somewhat, yes, but what they are doing is intentional and not just being bad at their job. It's not that easy to alleviate. Burrow is involved in creating the playbook each offseason. This is a good thing, you always want your starting QB to be consulted on what is going in. Up to this point, Burrow has communicated he loves sending five out into routes, sitting in shotgun and spreading the defense out. That's his game, but that game also opens his offensive line up to protection issues because they are all on an island. Burrow has spoken about how sacks can be misleading and aren't all worth the same, which I agree with, so they are taking a calculated risk when they do this. The way I read it is that they are betting the production they get from Burrow in this offense is going to offset the amount of sacks he will take. Obviously they don't want him getting sacked 50+ times but I think coaching would be okay with Burrow taking 35-ish sacks each season given the volume that they throw and their style. 

At some point, someone may need to take him by the ear and tell him that he could go the way of Andrew Luck if he continues to want this high flying passing offense and putting his OL in a difficult spot.

I really do think Burrow (and the whole team) would thrive in a WCO.

Burrow is highly accurate and is (relatively) mobile, and guys like Chase, Iosivas, and Jones have the speed necessary to make guys miss.
I really want an offense like the 49ers run.

[Whatever]

(02-02-2024, 04:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I am personally not too upset with the run blocking. I've slowly been making my way back through the season watching All-22 and while not outstanding or anything, I am not blaming the offensive line for lack of run production as much as I am the RBs. The run game Cincinnati uses fits their linemen, at least. Primarily gap with duos being their base run. These guys are generating double teams and getting vertical, and they are doing a fine job of it. I am blaming the RBs for leaving yardage on the field. 

Pass blocking is an issue but I also think it's exacerbated by the pass game philosophy Cincinnati has. 

FWIW, ESPN had the Bengals 9th in team Run Block Win Rate this past season.  The issues with the run game are with the backs.  We have Mixon, who is completely used up, and a bunch of Day 3 picks.  Everyone likes to point to Pacheco in KC and say you can run with a Day 3 RB if you have a stud OL, but that's not the case, at all.  The Chiefs are only 20th in run block win rate(1st in Pass Block Win Rate, though) and Pacheko averages 4.6 while their other RB's average 3.2, 3.5, and 2.9 ypc.  If their OL are such great run blockers, then why are their other RB's so poor?  People mistake getting lucky with a late RB pick with a great run blocking OL.  

Unfortunately, there is a tendency to just blame "trenches" for any offensive or defensive deficiency.  We see it on D regarding stopping the run as the club being bad in the trenches when the same front 6 was 5th and 7th against the run the past two years.  The only thing that changed was communication issues due to a massive youth movement in the secondary.  

[KillerGoose]

(02-02-2024, 06:45 PM)Whatever Wrote: FWIW, ESPN had the Bengals 9th in team Run Block Win Rate this past season.  The issues with the run game are with the backs.  We have Mixon, who is completely used up, and a bunch of Day 3 picks.  Everyone likes to point to Pacheco in KC and say you can run with a Day 3 RB if you have a stud OL, but that's not the case, at all.  The Chiefs are only 20th in run block win rate(1st in Pass Block Win Rate, though) and Pacheko averages 4.6 while their other RB's average 3.2, 3.5, and 2.9 ypc.  If their OL are such great run blockers, then why are their other RB's so poor?  People mistake getting lucky with a late RB pick with a great run blocking OL.  

Unfortunately, there is a tendency to just blame "trenches" for any offensive or defensive deficiency.  We see it on D regarding stopping the run as the club being bad in the trenches when the same front 6 was 5th and 7th against the run the past two years.  The only thing that changed was communication issues due to a massive youth movement in the secondary.  

Yeah, another stat to back up the idea is the fact that Cincinnati was just under league average in yards before contact but nearly dead last in elusiveness. The offensive line isn't doing a bad job, they aren't being helped by the RB room.  There are some other, smaller issues like most of the runs coming out of shotgun which limits the looks you can give but yeah. These guys had opportunities on the edge and with second level defenders but more often than not couldn't make them miss to generate extra yardage. Mixon specifically was 19th in yards before contact but almost last in elusiveness and yards after contact. 

[Soonerpeace]

To all the people who still chirp about Joe’s SB loss let me remind you

Bengals arguably had the worst offensive line that year and somehow someway Joe Burrow took them to the bowl. 3 out of the 5 starting lineman are no longer in the league and 1 is on a practice squad… pic.twitter.com/QGEMhV5cnY

— Chaston Scott (@CinCity808) February 6, 2024

[*Synric*]

(02-02-2024, 04:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I am personally not too upset with the run blocking. I've slowly been making my way back through the season watching All-22 and while not outstanding or anything, I am not blaming the offensive line for lack of run production as much as I am the RBs. The run game Cincinnati uses fits their linemen, at least. Primarily gap with duos being their base run. These guys are generating double teams and getting vertical, and they are doing a fine job of it. I am blaming the RBs for leaving yardage on the field. 

Pass blocking is an issue but I also think it's exacerbated by the pass game philosophy Cincinnati has. 

The Bengals OL are not explosive in short yardage run blocking situations and don't have an interior guy that can pull around the formstion to the edges. You can get around not being about to pin and pull with pitches and rpo screens but the worst blocking on the team was done by the skill positions. So many screens going for 2 yards and pitches getting stuffed for -3. Bengals have to do a better job blocking on the edges. 

[Watersider]

So why are the Bengals so bad at evaluating Oline talent? I get scheme plays a part, but it's not like our Oline players leave us and go on to have greater success elsewhere. They just end up being bad on other teams until those teams give up on them. Since we got Zeitler, Whitworth and Jones we've been terrible at it.

They seem to draft really well in most other positions, often getting good value out of low round picks, and they've thrown money at the position in free agency and the Oline still struggles.

Is it just bad luck? This really baffles me.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-04-2024, 04:32 AM)Watersider Wrote: So why are the Bengals so bad at evaluating Oline talent? I get scheme plays a part, but it's not like our Oline players leave us and go on to have greater success elsewhere. They just end up  being bad on other teams until those teams give up on them. Since we got Zeitler, Whitworth and Jones we've been terrible at it.

They seem to draft really well in most other positions, often getting good value out of low round picks, and they've thrown money at the position in free agency and the Oline still struggles.

Is it just bad luck? This really baffles me.

I think this is overblown. 

Look, in the ZT era, they have drafted 2 OL in the first 3 rounds. Williams Rd1 in 2019 and Carman in Rd2 in 2021. All the rest are Rd4 or below. You cannot expect much out of those guys. 

Williams was not a star. He was a "safe" pick & played like it. Injured year 1 (we should stop doing that). Graded out 70+ i  the first two years. Gutted through leg injury Y3 and grade suffered. Switched to RT and was OK. Someone is gonna pay him $15 mil in FA. That is not a bust. 

Carman is, however. Another guy with injury issues. And not a great work ethic. We tried to convert him to G. Then move him to RT. Did have some good play in the POs at LT, but he appears a LT only guy. Rumored to be an owner/former coach inspired pick. 

Jordan was a 4th, cost Joe his rookie year. 

Adeniji a 6th. What you'd expect from a 6th. 

Smith was a 4th and always a project. 

Volson was a 4th. More successful T to G conversion. Struggles with twists has something to do with it. 

All of those guys were OTs in college save Jordan. 

It is not a stellar record, but the Rd1 busts we all have PTSD over (Price, Ogbuehi) were Marvin. 

[*ochocincos*]

(03-04-2024, 11:49 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I think this is overblown. 

Look, in the ZT era, they have drafted 2 OL in the first 3 rounds. Williams Rd1 in 2019 and Carman in Rd2 in 2021. All the rest are Rd4 or below. You cannot expect much out of those guys. 

Williams was not a star. He was a "safe" pick & played like it. Injured year 1 (we should stop doing that). Graded out 70+ i  the first two years. Gutted through leg injury Y3 and grade suffered. Switched to RT and was OK. Someone is gonna pay him $15 mil in FA. That is not a bust. 

Carman is, however. Another guy with injury issues. And not a great work ethic. We tried to convert him to G. Then move him to RT. Did have some good play in the POs at LT, but he appears a LT only guy. Rumored to be an owner/former coach inspired pick. 

Jordan was a 4th, cost Joe his rookie year. 

Adeniji a 6th. What you'd expect from a 6th. 

Smith was a 4th and always a project. 

Volson was a 4th. More successful T to G conversion. Struggles with twists has something to do with it. 

All of those guys were OTs in college save Jordan. 

It is not a stellar record, but the Rd1 busts we all have PTSD over (Price, Ogbuehi) were Marvin. 

With this upcoming draft class being considered one of the best for OL in quite a long time, I would hope they recognize that and not worry so much about getting a good one if they don't land one in FA.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-04-2024, 11:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: With this upcoming draft class being considered one of the best for OL in quite a long time, I would hope they recognize that and not worry so much about getting a good one if they don't land one in FA.

I mean, in terms of IDing talent, we are not in "daimond in the rough" territory with Fuaga, Latham, Mims, & Guyton. Those are hughly touted guys.

The more worrisome aspect is the lack of development & scheme issues. Less glass eating, more athleticism and power. Stop having Sample block Watt & Garrett. Give the OT a bit of help once in a while. Run the ball more. Don't give the play away pre-snap with formation & personnel. Play under center more. 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Our O-line graded out at like 26th. It needs fixing.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-02-2024, 02:49 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: RBs cant get going if you dont call run plays though... we seemed to be running the ball pretty well when we actually ran it

Mixon had 3 games of 20+ carries last year.

He averaged 3.2, 3.8, and 3.1 yards per carry in those games.

He also had two 19 carry games where he averaged 3.4 and 3.6 yards per carry.

[*bfine32*]

Watchiing the combiine this weekend. Everytime someone said "raw with upside" I took them off my wish list. I'd love to have Patrick Paul but not on this team.

[XenoMorph]

(03-04-2024, 11:49 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: It is not a stellar record, but the Rd1 busts we all have PTSD over (Price, Ogbuehi) were Marvin. 

marvin was coach but the guys evaulating the OL are likely the same...  

[*ochocincos*]

(03-04-2024, 12:43 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I mean, in terms of IDing talent, we are not in "daimond in the rough" territory with Fuaga, Latham, Mims, & Guyton. Those are hughly touted guys.

The more worrisome aspect is the lack of development & scheme issues. Less glass eating, more athleticism and power. Stop having Sample block Watt & Garrett. Give the OT a bit of help once in a while. Run the ball more. Don't give the play away pre-snap with formation & personnel. Play under center more. 

While true, they sure didn't do very well assessing early-round talent in Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Price.
I realize that was mostly a different group though, but I'm just pointing out that even highly-rated guys aren't can't-miss.

Out of the guys you listed, Mims is the riskiest due to lack of playing time, IMO.

If the Bengals don't get a quality RT in FA next week, I'd like to have one of Fuaga, Latham, or Guyton.

I am with you as well that the scheme/playcalling isn't doing any favors.