How does probable Tee tag change our draft thinking

[pulses]

(02-28-2024, 07:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What about Brian Thomas made you "weary"?  For a CFB WR2, he put some pretty good stuff out there.  I mean for a second option on pass plays, he's pretty damned good.

Thomas has a limited route tree....he mostly ran verticals and drags....gonna have to work on the complete route tree to be as good as HIggins or better.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-28-2024, 07:13 PM)pulses Wrote: Thomas has a limited route tree....he mostly ran verticals and drags....gonna have to work on the complete route tree to be as good as HIggins or better.

That shouldn't really be an issue for a WR2 in the NFL.  His job is to make a play when WR1 is getting doubled or the play breaks down he needs to come back to the QB.  People seem to forget that Tee Higgins was drafted to replace AJ Green.  Tee played WR1 his rookie year and caught for just over 900 yards.  All of the fanbase went apeshit that we needed Jamarr Chase.  It happened and Tee slid over to WR2, where his job got a hell of a lot easier, considering that Chase draws double coverage on the bulk of plays.  

An argument that could be made is that Tee is perhaps overrated, due to the luxury of playing opposite of Jamarr Chase.  For the team to feel that they need to invest $22M in a WR2 is just absurd to my way of thinking.  Playing opposite of Jamarr Chase, a LOT of rookies or even lower cost veterans could perform very well at a much lower cost.

Brian Thomas wouldn't have to be as good at Tee Higgins to fill the role, he'd just have to not be a complete bust.  And based upon the physical talents that I've viewed him display, I doubt that would happen.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-28-2024, 06:58 PM)Dr.Z Wrote: I'm a tad weary of Brian Thomas Jr.  I just recently started delving into tape for the draft (got a late start this year), but I may like Adonai Mitchell better (again, I still have more to watch of the WR's and several other positions).      On another tangent - the OL - I'd like to come out of the draft addressing the line, but I think the playcalling precipitated a lot of the negative perception and actual stats of the unit.  I won't rant about it again in this thread, as I have done so plenty in other threads going back prior to even last season.

I am not weary of Brian Thomas Jr just because of his limited route tree as Pulses says, he can work on that. But I completely understand 
liking Adonai Mitchell more because of his more diverse tree. Adonai just is a natural at getting open on short routes as well as all the other
routes and he has fantastic hands. But Brian Thomas Jr has the talent you just cannot teach, his size/speed combination is very rare.

BTW, nice seeing you on here again Dr.Z

(02-28-2024, 07:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What about Brian Thomas made you "weary"?  For a CFB WR2, he put some pretty good stuff out there.  I mean for a second option on pass plays, he's pretty damned good.

Yes, Thomas Jr looks dynamic on film. Doesn't look like he is 6'4" but he is. Tee had to work on his route running just the same but he mostly 
runs the same routes Thomas runs except Thomas can outrun DB's and he doesn't just have to rely on his size like Tee seems to.

[pulses]

(02-28-2024, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That shouldn't really be an issue for a WR2 in the NFL.  His job is to make a play when WR1 is getting doubled or the play breaks down he needs to come back to the QB.  People seem to forget that Tee Higgins was drafted to replace AJ Green.  Tee played WR1 his rookie year and caught for just over 900 yards.  All of the fanbase went apeshit that we needed Jamarr Chase.  It happened and Tee slid over to WR2, where his job got a hell of a lot easier, considering that Chase draws double coverage on the bulk of plays.  

An argument that could be made is that Tee is perhaps overrated, due to the luxury of playing opposite of Jamarr Chase.  For the team to feel that they need to invest $22M in a WR2 is just absurd to my way of thinking.  Playing opposite of Jamarr Chase, a LOT of rookies or even lower cost veterans could perform very well at a much lower cost.

Brian Thomas wouldn't have to be as good at Tee Higgins to fill the role, he'd just have to not be a complete bust.  And based upon the physical talents that I've viewed him display, I doubt that would happen.

I agree with the part of paying Higgins that kind of money for a WR2 it's just ridiculous.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-28-2024, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That shouldn't really be an issue for a WR2 in the NFL.  His job is to make a play when WR1 is getting doubled or the play breaks down he needs to come back to the QB.  People seem to forget that Tee Higgins was drafted to replace AJ Green.  Tee played WR1 his rookie year and caught for just over 900 yards.  All of the fanbase went apeshit that we needed Jamarr Chase.  It happened and Tee slid over to WR2, where his job got a hell of a lot easier, considering that Chase draws double coverage on the bulk of plays.  

An argument that could be made is that Tee is perhaps overrated, due to the luxury of playing opposite of Jamarr Chase.  For the team to feel that they need to invest $22M in a WR2 is just absurd to my way of thinking.  Playing opposite of Jamarr Chase, a LOT of rookies or even lower cost veterans could perform very well at a much lower cost.

Brian Thomas wouldn't have to be as good at Tee Higgins to fill the role, he'd just have to not be a complete bust.  And based upon the physical talents that I've viewed him display, I doubt that would happen.

Just a fantastic post, I completely agree as usual Sunset but you nailed it.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-28-2024, 08:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Just a fantastic post, I completely agree as usual Sunset but you nailed it.

I'm glad that you appreciated my perspective on the matter.  However, I feel like we are a very slim minority in that opinion around here..

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-28-2024, 08:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm glad that you appreciated my perspective on the matter.  However, I feel like we are a very slim minority in that opinion around here..

Yeah, there are a ton of Tee lovers on this board that would probably flip out hearing he is a bit overrated lol

[depthchart]

(02-28-2024, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That shouldn't really be an issue for a WR2 in the NFL.  His job is to make a play when WR1 is getting doubled or the play breaks down he needs to come back to the QB.  People seem to forget that Tee Higgins was drafted to replace AJ Green.  Tee played WR1 his rookie year and caught for just over 900 yards.  All of the fanbase went apeshit that we needed Jamarr Chase.  It happened and Tee slid over to WR2, where his job got a hell of a lot easier, considering that Chase draws double coverage on the bulk of plays.  

An argument that could be made is that Tee is perhaps overrated, due to the luxury of playing opposite of Jamarr Chase.  For the team to feel that they need to invest $22M in a WR2 is just absurd to my way of thinking.  Playing opposite of Jamarr Chase, a LOT of rookies or even lower cost veterans could perform very well at a much lower cost.

Brian Thomas wouldn't have to be as good at Tee Higgins to fill the role, he'd just have to not be a complete bust.  And based upon the physical talents that I've viewed him display, I doubt that would happen.

It will be interesting to see what the Bengals actually do here because I tend to think that they would agree with you in Principle but 

may still end up paying Big dollars for TEE for a SHORT period of Time.


Will they pay TEE $22m as WR #2 for just the 2024 season ?  (go against this Principle for just 1 season)

Will they Trade TEE now to totally adhere to the Principle of not paying a WR #2 that much money ?

Could they ultimately sign TEE for say 3 years ? (which would go against this Principle for an even longer period of Time)


*I am not 100% sure exactly which way the Bengals will go here. They have TEE tagged, now what...

[SunsetBengal]

(02-28-2024, 08:38 PM)depthchart Wrote: It will be interesting to see what the Bengals actually do here because I tend to think that they would agree with you in Principle but 

may still end up paying Big dollars for TEE for a SHORT period of Time.


Will they pay TEE $22m as WR #2 for just the 2024 season ?  (go against this Principle for just 1 season)

Will they Trade TEE now to totally adhere to the Principle of not paying a WR #2 that much money ?

Could they ultimately sign TEE for say 3 years ? (which would go against this Principle for an even longer period of Time)


*I am not 100% sure exactly which way the Bengals will go here. They have TEE tagged, now what...

If they signed him to a sensible deal, say 3 years/$52.5M w/$25M guaranteed, that would make sense.  However, I doubt that his agent would go for something like that.

[007BengalsFan]

(02-28-2024, 08:38 PM)depthchart Wrote: It will be interesting to see what the Bengals actually do here because I tend to think that they would agree with you in Principle but 

may still end up paying Big dollars for TEE for a SHORT period of Time.


Will they pay TEE $22m as WR #2 for just the 2024 season ?  (go against this Principle for just 1 season)...

The Bengals would be giving up a 1st round draft pick to rent Tee for one season.  Is having Tee on the team for 2024 worth giving up a 1st round draft pick?

and lets not play the "we can tag him again next season" game.  A tag next year would be 26 million.  If Tee was worth 26 million why wouldnt the team just sign him at that now? 

I like having Tee on the team but I think we would be giving up too much to keep him vs what we would gain by trading him. If he signed to something reasonable we could keep him but I dont think that is what he and his agent are looking for.

[Dr.Z]

(02-28-2024, 07:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What about Brian Thomas made you "weary"?  For a CFB WR2, he put some pretty good stuff out there.  I mean for a second option on pass plays, he's pretty damned good.

He has tantalizing size/speed, and no doubt possess a lot of upside.  First, I want to clarify that I don't necessarily dislike him as a prospect.   I tend to get wordy in my posts and next thing I know, I've written War & Peace, so I'll try and answer but keep it from being annoyingly long lol.   He does need work on his route running, but IMO it goes a bit beyond having a limited route tree.  He can look almost lazily running his routes on plays where he knows that he isn't getting the ball, and also in "selling" his routes.  Not that he can't block, but his effort is inconsistent in doing so (funny, bc other times you can see him actually blocking down the field running with the play).  A lot of his splash plays are created by a stop and go or shoulder fake, then burns the defender with his speed.  I wonder if he will be able to be able to get away with this against physical NFL corners who know his tendencies unless he develops a much more diverse arsenal.    Lots of these things can be refined with coaching and work, but in a nutshell, my biggest concerns- and what makes me most "weary"- to answer your question, are the areas related to effort (and essentially his make-up/character).  The inconsistent effort stuff trumps the other things, bc to realize all of that potential and reach his ceiling, it will take work, dedication and effort.  Having said all of that, he blows the doors off of his defender when he gets a free release or step on him.  His highlights are fun, because his speed and explosion shows on tape.  And if he ends up becoming a star wr, I won't necessarily be surprised.  I'm just saying that he has some legit bust potential go along with that upside. Already getting too long , I'll stop here 

[Dr.Z]

(02-28-2024, 07:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am not weary of Brian Thomas Jr just because of his limited route tree as Pulses says, he can work on that. But I completely understand 
liking Adonai Mitchell more because of his more diverse tree. Adonai just is a natural at getting open on short routes as well as all the other
routes and he has fantastic hands. But Brian Thomas Jr has the talent you just cannot teach, his size/speed combination is very rare.

 BTW, nice seeing you on here again Dr.Z


Yes, Thomas Jr looks dynamic on film. Doesn't look like he is 6'4" but he is. Tee had to work on his route running just the same but he mostly 
runs the same routes Thomas runs except Thomas can outrun DB's and he doesn't just have to rely on his size like Tee seems to.

Thank you Nate.  It is always awesome seeing you on here and talking football with you my dude

[pulses]

(02-28-2024, 08:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm glad that you appreciated my perspective on the matter.  However, I feel like we are a very slim minority in that opinion around here..

Very slim minority indeed.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-29-2024, 12:25 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: He has tantalizing size/speed, and no doubt possess a lot of upside.  First, I want to clarify that I don't necessarily dislike him as a prospect.   I tend to get wordy in my posts and next thing I know, I've written War & Peace, so I'll try and answer but keep it from being annoyingly long lol.   He does need work on his route running, but IMO it goes a bit beyond having a limited route tree.  He can look almost lazily running his routes on plays where he knows that he isn't getting the ball, and also in "selling" his routes.  Not that he can't block, but his effort is inconsistent in doing so (funny, bc other times you can see him actually blocking down the field running with the play).  A lot of his splash plays are created by a stop and go or shoulder fake, then burns the defender with his speed.  I wonder if he will be able to be able to get away with this against physical NFL corners who know his tendencies unless he develops a much more diverse arsenal.    Lots of these things can be refined with coaching and work, but in a nutshell, my biggest concerns- and what makes me most "weary"- to answer your question, are the areas related to effort (and essentially his make-up/character).  The inconsistent effort stuff trumps the other things, bc to realize all of that potential and reach his ceiling, it will take work, dedication and effort.  Having said all of that, he blows the doors off of his defender when he gets a free release or step on him.  His highlights are fun, because his speed and explosion shows on tape.  And if he ends up becoming a star wr, I won't necessarily be surprised.  I'm just saying that he has some legit bust potential go along with that upside. Already getting too long , I'll stop here 

If I knew the ball was going to Malik Nabers, I'd be tempted to go ahead and take the play off, too. 

[JoeyB2023]

(02-25-2024, 04:36 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Sadly our FAs have not performed to the level they did with previou team, also we really need to start locking in some quality draft picks that will be here for a while, Brown worries me  at 31 , best years behind him, we have opportunity to lock in at RT with 18th pick , hope Bengals still draft RT .

Burrow is the franchise and he’s not been protected well. Proven talent will protect him. I expect the guys brought in Via FA to play better this season. Our worst offensive lineman not only on our starting lineup but also back ups r both drafted by the bengals with Hill and Volson. the only quality we have on the oline is FA. I do not want the bengals going offensive tackle at 18. Them drafting an offensive lineman is about as scary as a date with bundy. It’s death for this team. They can’t hit to save their lives duke and pollack both can’t evaluate talent at the positive nor develop. Burrow is too important to not address his protection in fa with proven talent. With burrow we can do anything. Without him nothing.
And Dallas had the best offensive line for years and never did anything with it. I’m not sold the offensive line has to be perfect just solid. Gimme a good LT hood Center A mauler at Right tackle and I’m happy. This team don’t need to break the bank on anyone on the lines. Browns age at 31 worries me little. And we simply need an upgrade over Jonah which is brown.

[JoeyB2023]

(02-29-2024, 12:25 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: He has tantalizing size/speed, and no doubt possess a lot of upside.  First, I want to clarify that I don't necessarily dislike him as a prospect.   I tend to get wordy in my posts and next thing I know, I've written War & Peace, so I'll try and answer but keep it from being annoyingly long lol.   He does need work on his route running, but IMO it goes a bit beyond having a limited route tree.  He can look almost lazily running his routes on plays where he knows that he isn't getting the ball, and also in "selling" his routes.  Not that he can't block, but his effort is inconsistent in doing so (funny, bc other times you can see him actually blocking down the field running with the play).  A lot of his splash plays are created by a stop and go or shoulder fake, then burns the defender with his speed.  I wonder if he will be able to be able to get away with this against physical NFL corners who know his tendencies unless he develops a much more diverse arsenal.    Lots of these things can be refined with coaching and work, but in a nutshell, my biggest concerns- and what makes me most "weary"- to answer your question, are the areas related to effort (and essentially his make-up/character).  The inconsistent effort stuff trumps the other things, bc to realize all of that potential and reach his ceiling, it will take work, dedication and effort.  Having said all of that, he blows the doors off of his defender when he gets a free release or step on him.  His highlights are fun, because his speed and explosion shows on tape.  And if he ends up becoming a star wr, I won't necessarily be surprised.  I'm just saying that he has some legit bust potential go along with that upside. Already getting too long , I'll stop here 

I played WR my whole life and I can really appreciate this and love the take. As a fan of Thomas this makes me extremely hesitant. If u don’t love the game and only in it for what it can do for you. U see effort fall short. That u can’t coach in or out. Can’t make someone love the game can’t make someone not love it. iE Andrew Luck/Burrow etc.
if it’s an effort thing hard pass which leads me to my next question. Let’s say u gotta go WR at 18 and the obvious are off the board. Who do you take? Who is the wideout u like the most at 18?

[JoeyB2023]

(02-28-2024, 09:32 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The Bengals would be giving up a 1st round draft pick to rent Tee for one season.  Is having Tee on the team for 2024 worth giving up a 1st round draft pick?

and lets not play the "we can tag him again next season" game.  A tag next year would be 26 million.  If Tee was worth 26 million why wouldnt the team just sign him at that now? 

I like having Tee on the team but I think we would be giving up too much to keep him vs what we would gain by trading him. If he signed to something reasonable we could keep him but I dont think that is what he and his agent are looking for.

This ^^^

[Dr.Z]

(02-29-2024, 12:40 PM)JoeyB2023 Wrote: I played WR my whole life and I can really appreciate this and love the take.  As a fan of Thomas this makes me extremely hesitant.  If u don’t love the game and only in it for what it can do for you.  U see effort fall short.  That u can’t coach in or out.  Can’t make someone love the game can’t make someone not love it.  iE Andrew Luck/Burrow etc.  
if it’s an effort thing hard pass which leads me to my next question. Let’s say u gotta go WR at 18 and the obvious are off the board.  Who do you take?  Who is the wideout u like the most at 18?

Thanks man, appreciate it.   I haven't ranked WRs in order yet, but to answer your question pre-testing, I think I like AD Mitchell over Thomas, which, at this point in the pre draft process seems to not  exactly mirror the internet consensus fwiw.   (I wouldn't be surprised to see Mitchell climb up some boards between now and the draft tho)

[Essex Johnson]

(02-28-2024, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That shouldn't really be an issue for a WR2 in the NFL.  His job is to make a play when WR1 is getting doubled or the play breaks down he needs to come back to the QB.  People seem to forget that Tee Higgins was drafted to replace AJ Green.  Tee played WR1 his rookie year and caught for just over 900 yards.  All of the fanbase went apeshit that we needed Jamarr Chase.  It happened and Tee slid over to WR2, where his job got a hell of a lot easier, considering that Chase draws double coverage on the bulk of plays.  

An argument that could be made is that Tee is perhaps overrated, due to the luxury of playing opposite of Jamarr Chase.  For the team to feel that they need to invest $22M in a WR2 is just absurd to my way of thinking.  Playing opposite of Jamarr Chase, a LOT of rookies or even lower cost veterans could perform very well at a much lower cost.

Brian Thomas wouldn't have to be as good at Tee Higgins to fill the role, he'd just have to not be a complete bust.  And based upon the physical talents that I've viewed him display, I doubt that would happen.

I agree with majoirty of your post but there can be an argument also that Tee is underrated, he put up very good numbers rookie year on a rebuild team plus look at this 5 game stats without Chase vs Chase stats with Higgins

5 games without Chase: 31 catches for 511 yards and has scored 3 touchdowns

Chase 8 games without Higgins: 42 catches for 596 yards and has scored 7 touchdowns

[Hammerstripes]

(02-28-2024, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That shouldn't really be an issue for a WR2 in the NFL.  His job is to make a play when WR1 is getting doubled or the play breaks down he needs to come back to the QB.  People seem to forget that Tee Higgins was drafted to replace AJ Green.  Tee played WR1 his rookie year and caught for just over 900 yards.  All of the fanbase went apeshit that we needed Jamarr Chase.  It happened and Tee slid over to WR2, where his job got a hell of a lot easier, considering that Chase draws double coverage on the bulk of plays.  

An argument that could be made is that Tee is perhaps overrated, due to the luxury of playing opposite of Jamarr Chase.  For the team to feel that they need to invest $22M in a WR2 is just absurd to my way of thinking.  Playing opposite of Jamarr Chase, a LOT of rookies or even lower cost veterans could perform very well at a much lower cost.

Brian Thomas wouldn't have to be as good at Tee Higgins to fill the role, he'd just have to not be a complete bust.  And based upon the physical talents that I've viewed him display, I doubt that would happen.

I'm not sure I agree with this take - especially when we lost Boyd in the AFC Title game 2 years ago our offense went into a stall.  I can only imagine if we had a "not a complete bust" at WR2.  If this was a team that is still building a roster, I would trade Tee and not look back.  If I'm trying to beat the Chiefs., I need Chase, Tee AND a good draft pick to come in and play the slot as well as Boyd.  I'm definitely taking the 1 year risk on Tee along with adding an early round (2-3) WR to get in the system prior to losing Tee.

We should have been adding a middle round WR every year to avoid this exact situation.