Grade the 2021 Bengals draft

[Whatever]

(05-03-2024, 12:29 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Admittedly I am a fairly harsh grader when it comes to Bengals drafts. Probably because I have seen a lot of wasted years and talent along the way. Ts, this draft has 2 hits,2 complete misses, and 6 incompletes. None of the incompletes can currently be ranked above a C at their draft positions. Even if you give 2 of the incompletes a C grade there are still 4 other players with an incomplete and none could be ranked above a D.

 Two A+, two F's, two C's (and I'm being generous), four D's.

It's a D for me. 

Who are the C's and D's?

[jj22]

(05-03-2024, 12:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Marvin never had the benefit of the team actually spending in free agency. Players like Hendrickson, Reader, Bell, Awuzie, Hilton, etc were all vital during the recent playoff runs.

This is false. For Marvins first couple years like Zac he had good FA classes. 

[jj22]

(05-03-2024, 12:41 PM)Whatever Wrote: Who are the C's and D's?

Maybe Mahomes and Allen can tell us..... 

[PDub80]

(05-03-2024, 09:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Geno did have a big sack against the Steelers in 2016. In a game they obviously should’ve won.

It’s definitely fair to bring up playoff performance though (I just did with Parsons), but when the gap is as large as it is between guys like Whit/Geno and Wilson/Pratt I’m still going with the guys that at the very least are borderline Hall of Famers.

Oh, no, sure I get what you're saying on the whole career arc. But the guys under ZT only have a few years in thus far. I can't compare them to 10 year HOF vets.

But I think that, from an impact standpoint, Wilson, Pratt, Shooter, Higgins, Burrow, Chase.... All incredible careers so far.

Compare that to the higher end picks of Marvin's era and I think ZT comes out ahead. ZT has had MUCH better FA signings, which is why the team has had monster success.... but ZT also drafts different types of guys than Marvin. No question. That had overcome the lack of developing draft picks.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-03-2024, 12:44 PM)jj22 Wrote: This is false. For Marvins first couple years like Zac he had good FA classes. 

[Frank Booth]

(05-03-2024, 12:41 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm thinking about the only thing that (should) matters.... Wins and post season contributions.

There is no SB without Shelvin's big play against Mahomes.... What more do you want from a draft pick. I'll have to hear the A picks in prior drafts and wonder what they did to help the team win and make championship runs.

You can point to the supposed great draft picks of Dunlap, Atkins, Whit etc. but what exactly did that get us? You guys rather go back to 1 and dones?

Deep breaths

C-

[jj22]

(05-03-2024, 12:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

I mean he did. Must we list them? 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-03-2024, 12:51 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Oh, no, sure I get what you're saying on the whole career arc. But the guys under ZT only have a few years in thus far. I can't compare them to 10 year HOF vets.

But I think that, from an impact standpoint, Wilson, Pratt, Shooter, Higgins, Burrow, Chase.... All incredible careers so far.

Compare that to the higher end picks of Marvin's era and I think ZT comes out ahead. ZT has had MUCH better FA signings, which is why the team has had monster success.... but ZT also drafts different types of guys than Marvin. No question. That had overcome the lack of developing draft picks.

Bingo. That and Burrow.

[jj22]

(05-03-2024, 12:55 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Deep breaths

C-

I'll take it then. More C- drafts given the success and their contributions in the post season. I mean. Again. The only thing that matters. To some at least. What is it you are looking for in these players if not post season play, success, contributions to Championship runs, and SB appearances.

I can't think of what else could possibly matter. Jersey sales?

[jj22]

Not one of our FA signings in 2020 and 2021 was considered significant. Or enough to boost a 2-14 team to the SB. Let us not forget or act like we won those offseasons by signing top end talent.

They turned out extremely well, but when compared to Marvin's early FA's, these players didn't come with the wide praise that his did. They were considered bargains.

Marvin got established pro bowlers...

Zac got projections, on what a player could become.

Hell even we thought Hendrickson was a downgrade from Lawson.

Hell we wanted to keep Mackensie Alexander over Hilton (the other tone setter in the big Pitt game of 2019).

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-03-2024, 12:57 PM)jj22 Wrote: I mean he did. Must we list them? 

Listing them would certainly help.

Off the top of my head - in his first few years - Marvin had Deltha O’Neal, a 30 year old Tory James, and Bobbie Williams. Who were these other good free agent signings he had early on?

[coachmcneil71]

(05-03-2024, 12:41 PM)Whatever Wrote: Who are the C's and D's?

Come on man! It's a pickem. You know which ones are hits and which ones were complete misses. You can probably give Ossai a C but it's all downhill after that with the 6 incompletes. Evans may be worthy of a C considering where he was drafted. I don't see how any of the other 4 could rank above a D grade. 

[Whatever]

(05-03-2024, 01:17 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Come on man! It's a pickem. You know which ones are hits and which ones were complete misses. You can probably give Ossai a C but it's all downhill after that with the 6 incompletes. Evans may be worthy of a C considering where he was drafted. I don't see how any of the other 4 could rank above a D grade. 

Yeah...less than half of 4th round picks last through their rookie deals without getting cut.  Looking at our '11-20 draft classes(because '20 is the last draft year that rookie contracts have expired from), 5 of our 15 4th round picks lasted 4 years in the roster(ADG, Carl Lawson, Andrew Billings, Russell Bodine, and Clint Boling).  And you're apparently giving D grades to 6th rounders like Hill and Evans who have made the roster for 3 years?

Day 3 picks are cheap depth fills for the back half of the roster.  Occasionally, yeah, you luck into a starter, but expecting starters and key backups out of these picks is ridiculous.  That's why I rail on everyone jumping on the Golden Binns bandwagon or folks who think you can just find a quality RB on Day 3.

[coachmcneil71]

(05-03-2024, 01:05 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Listing them would certainly help.

Off the top of my head - in his first few years - Marvin had Deltha O’Neal, a 30 year old Tory James, and Bobbie Williams. Who were these other good free agent signings he had early on?

Not to go off topic here, but what was the name of that LB that ML drafted early in his tenure? Anyone remember his name without looking him up?  

[coachmcneil71]

(05-03-2024, 02:08 PM)Whatever Wrote: Yeah...less than half of 4th round picks last through their rookie deals without getting cut.  Looking at our '11-20 draft classes(because '20 is the last draft year that rookie contracts have expired from), 5 of our 15 4th round picks lasted 4 years in the roster(ADG, Carl Lawson, Andrew Billings, Russell Bodine, and Clint Boling).  And you're apparently giving D grades to 6th rounders like Hill and Evans who have made the roster for 3 years?

Day 3 picks are cheap depth fills for the back half of the roster.  Occasionally, yeah, you luck into a starter, but expecting starters and key backups out of these picks is ridiculous.  That's why I rail on everyone jumping on the Golden Binns bandwagon or folks who think you can just find a quality RB on Day 3.

Hill may be worthy of a C-, but that's a stretch really. Evans has at least scored a TD in a meaningful game, but the rest of his contributions have been pretty vanilla. The names Sample, Hill, and Evans aren't striking any fear in opposing teams and players. 

I gave 6 incompletes for a reason.

[Whatever]

(05-03-2024, 01:05 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Listing them would certainly help.

Off the top of my head - in his first few years - Marvin had Deltha O’Neal, a 30 year old Tory James, and Bobbie Williams. Who were these other good free agent signings he had early on?

Kevin Hardy was a Pro Bowl LB.  If course, he had John Thornton, Sam Adams, and I wanna say Ashley Ambrose.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-02-2024, 05:50 PM)J24 Wrote: 1st.) Jammar Chase WR LSU

2.) Jackson Carmen OL Clemson

3.) Joseph Ossai Edge Texas

4.) Cam Sample Edge Tulane

4b.)Tyler Shelvin NT LSU

4c.) D'ante Smith OT ECU

5.)Mac McPherson K Florida

6th.) Trey Hill C Georgia

6b.) Chris Evans RB Florida

7.) Wyatt Hubert DE

C- Ja'Marr Chase and Evan McPherson were knock it out of the park picks but I think they were about as sure of picks as you can get.

Hubert never showed anything, but he was a 7th round pick. Still would like to see something out of someone you pick.

Jackson Carman is still on the team, Cam Sample is pretty good, but we can easily upgrade over both I think especially Carman. Trey Hill
is still on the team but may not be for long with his bad knees, lack of mobility and the Matt Lee addition. Doubt D'Ante Smith is around 
after the Mims addition, need to upgrade over Evans on the backend of the RB room etc.

I have some hope for Ossai, he will get his chances and he had a good game against the Browns in our last game. This guy needs to get
healthy, stay that way and don't let things get into his head.

[Whatever]

(05-03-2024, 02:17 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Hill may be worthy of a C-, but that's a stretch really. Evans has at least scored a TD in a meaningful game, but the rest of his contributions have been pretty vanilla. The names Sample, Hill, and Evans aren't striking any fear in opposing teams and players. 

I gave 6 incompletes for a reason.

If you're expecting Day 3 picks to strike fear into the opposition, then you have very unrealistic expectations for Day 3 picks.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-03-2024, 02:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: Kevin Hardy was a Pro Bowl LB.  If course, he had John Thornton, Sam Adams, and I wanna say Ashley Ambrose.

Ambrose played here well before Marvin arrived.

Sam Adams was 33 when he signed with the Bengals, and played all of one season in Cincinnati.

Kevin Hardy was 30 when he signed with the Bengals.

Seems like a pattern here…

I’d say of the guys you listed really only Thornton fits into the group of good player in their prime signing a 2nd contract as a FA under Marvin.

[*ochocincos*]

In most draft, the expected "good" outcome is 2 good starters, maybe 1-2 extra quality rotational/depth/ST guys.

In 2021, excellent selection of Chase.
Sample has been ok as a depth rotational piece, I guess.
Ossai kinda same, maybe somewhat worse than Sample.
Carman purely a depth piece going into 4th year.
McPherson great ST pick.
I doubt any of the players other than Chase and McPherson see 2nd contracts with Bengals.

I'll generously give this draft a B-, although I could see argument for C+.