Zimmer v. Anarumo

[jj22]

Now that Livingston is in Colorado, the last lineage of the Marvin / Zimmer defensive scheme has left the building with him. Maybe some knowledge and experience from an outside scheme will be missed.

Has Anarumo scheme been better than Zimmer’s?

Zimmer had some top defenses in the league but could never hold at the end of half’s. They weren’t necessarily clutch.

Lou’s defense has never been a top D in the league, but has come up big in big games and key moments.

How would you rank the schemes?

How would they rank compared to DC schemes of Bengals past.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Zimmer's scheme >>> Anarumo's scheme

Anarumo's FA budget >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zimmer's FA budget

Anarumo's had a below average defense in 4 of his 5 years here, but he's had some good runs in the postseason. Zimmer did some amazing things considering he had Rey Maualuga, Dre Kirkpatrick, Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, Terrence Newman, Chris Crocker, Robert Geathers, etc... just imagine if Zimmer had the ability to just add outside FAs as needed like Trey Hendrickson, DJ Reader, Vonn Bell, Chidobe Awuzie, Ogunjobi, Rankins, etc.

[Soonerpeace]

(06-08-2024, 12:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: Now that Livingston is in Colorado, the last lineage of the Marvin / Zimmer defensive scheme has left the building with him. Maybe some knowledge and experience from an outside scheme will be missed.

Has Anarumo scheme been better than Zimmer’s?

Zimmer had some top defenses in the league but could never hold at the end of half’s. They weren’t necessarily clutch.

Lou’s defense has never been a top D in the league, but has come up big in big games and key moments.

How would you rank the schemes?

How would they rank compared to DC schemes of Bengals past.

I’m not as familiar with Zimmer’s scheme. But I knew one of his assistants at Dallas who swore by him. I was impressed with his raving about Zac’s offense right after we beat them with the Vikings.

[samhain]

(06-08-2024, 12:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Zimmer's scheme >>> Anarumo's scheme

Anarumo's FA budget >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zimmer's FA budget

Anarumo's had a below average defense in 4 of his 5 years here, but he's had some good runs in the postseason. Zimmer did some amazing things considering he had Rey Maualuga, Dre Kirkpatrick, Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, Terrence Newman, Chris Crocker, Robert Geathers, etc... just imagine if Zimmer had the ability to just add outside FAs as needed like Trey Hendrickson, DJ Reader, Vonn Bell, Chidobe Awuzie, Ogunjobi, Rankins, etc.

True, but oddly, I think that Zimmer's group was comprised of better players.

No player on this current defense is Geno Atkins-level elite at any position.  Zimmer's secondary was loaded on a regular basis.  Adam Jones is a top end athlete and regularly locked down opposing number 1 wrs.  He was obviously a budget guy because of his extracurricular activities.  Hall was terrific as well.  

Overall depth and quality is better with Lou.  He also had outstanding safety play with Bates and Bell, which might be the equalizer.  

I agree with your point.  If the FO had the inclination to get another DE to compliment Dunlap, it would have catapulted into world-beater status.  The year Johnson left was tough on them.  When he came back he wasn't quite the same player as when he was chasing the payday.  

[*bfine32*]

Zimmer was better at cussing.

[casear2727]

I like Lou, but I consider Zimmer a better D Coordinator.

[J24]

They're asked to do two different things.

Zimmer defenses were asked to carry the team while Lou defense is asked not to blow the game.

[KillerGoose]

It's been 11 years since Zimmer was here. I am not sure anyone is going to have a strong enough memory to remember what exactly Zimmer was doing. I do think that Zimmer's defenses were more difficult to face and I view him as a better DC.

My vague memory says this, scheme wise...

Zimmer - Played more man coverage and blitzed more often. Was more aggressive and confusing on the back end. Zimmer's defenses were more difficult to read pre-snap. They were also chock full of strong pass rushers. This is really all I remember without going back and watching. 

Lou - Plays cover three as his base coverage, runs a substantial amount of single high in general. Requires a good center field safety. Not as aggressive, blitzes significantly less and attempts to force teams into mistakes by limiting big plays. Highly opportunistic defense, coaches players to strip the ball and hunt turnovers but gives up more yardage. 

Very different styles, also likely guided by very different roster construction. I personally prefer Zimmer. 

[samhain]

(06-08-2024, 01:35 PM)J24 Wrote: They're asked to do two different things.

Zimmer defenses were asked to carry the team while Lou defense is asked not to blow the game.

Idk.  It could absolutely be argued that the defense won them a lot of key games in 2021.  The AFC title game comes to mind.  The divisional round when Burrow got pummeled is another.

[samhain]

(06-08-2024, 01:36 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's been 11 years since Zimmer was here. I am not sure anyone is going to have a strong enough memory to remember what exactly Zimmer was doing. I do think that Zimmer's defenses were more difficult to face and I view him as a better DC.

My vague memory says this, scheme wise...

Zimmer - Played more man coverage and blitzed more often. Was more aggressive and confusing on the back end. Zimmer's defenses were more difficult to read pre-snap. They were also chock full of strong pass rushers. This is really all I remember without going back and watching. 

Lou - Plays cover three as his base coverage, runs a substantial amount of single high in general. Requires a good center field safety. Not as aggressive, blitzes significantly less and attempts to force teams into mistakes by limiting big plays. Highly opportunistic defense, coaches players to strip the ball and hunt turnovers but gives up more yardage. 

Very different styles, also likely guided by very different roster construction. I personally prefer Zimmer. 

The Bengals d-line was a perennial joke before Zimmer arrived.  He performed a miracle finding those d-linemen (MJ, Geno, Dunlap) and molding them into a top unit.  Before him, the front 7 was a liability, even with alleged defensive guru Marvin Lewis overseeing things.  The Bresnahan defenses were the things of nightmares.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-08-2024, 01:10 PM)samhain Wrote: True, but oddly, I think that Zimmer's group was comprised of better players.

No player on this current defense is Geno Atkins-level elite at any position.  Zimmer's secondary was loaded on a regular basis.  Adam Jones is a top end athlete and regularly locked down opposing number 1 wrs.  He was obviously a budget guy because of his extracurricular activities.  Hall was terrific as well.  

Overall depth and quality is better with Lou.  He also had outstanding safety play with Bates and Bell, which might be the equalizer.  

I agree with your point.  If the FO had the inclination to get another DE to compliment Dunlap, it would have catapulted into world-beater status.  The year Johnson left was tough on them.  When he came back he wasn't quite the same player as when he was chasing the payday.  

I wholeheartedly disagree.

We had the 4th overall/6th scoring defense with these starters....
DL: Robert Geathers, Domata Peko, Tank Johnson, Jonathan Fanene
LB: Rey Maualuga, Dhani Jones, Keith Rivers
DB: Jonathan Joseph, Leon Hall, Nedu Ndukwe, Chris Crocker

We also had the 7th overall/9th scoring defense with these starters....
DL: Robert Geathers, Domata Peko, Geno Atkins, Frostee Rucker
LB: Manny Lawson, Rey Maualuga, Thomas Howard
DB: Nate Clements, Leon Hall, Chris Crocker, Reggie Neslon

Mike Zimmer got Antwan Odom in his first year and after that the next biggest outside FA we added to the defense in his 6 years here was I think Nate Clements at 2yr/$10.5m.

He did have Atkins, and Dunlap was very good, but the vast majority of our defense were not good players individually. He took a lot of bad pieces and turned them into a good collective.


... I mostly was just bummed out because I can't help but think we had a 5 year window there where if we actually participated in quality FA signing we had a couple legit SB shots there.

[bonesaw]

really like both.

Zimmer was more aggressive and I'm always good with that style. Really liked his double A gap stuff and press man, just get after it. Lou's defense seems like it requires a lot more communication and passing receivers off. Seems like when executed it gives even the best problems but as we saw last year with new people not used to it then some errors and big plays can arise.

Side note, I think another one of our DC's deserves a lot of credit for the double A gap stuff as I think he kind of lead the development of it when LBer coach under Zim. Tons of teams copied it and that's the ultimate sign of flattery, isn't it?

[Whacked]

Love ‘em both

Diff era’s, teams, players and needs.

Tough call.

If I had to pick one, I’d say Zimmer has the edge over all.

Lots of considerations though.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Zimmer was outcoached in big games a hell of a lot more than Anarumo. Just take a gander at the opposing rushing stats in the Zimmer playoff losses. I'll always give Zimmer credit for turning Cincy's defense into a respectable unit, but he had a deer in the headlights look in the playoffs.

[*bfine32*]

(06-08-2024, 04:51 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Zimmer was outcoached in big games a hell of a lot more than Anarumo. Just take a gander at the opposing rushing stats in the Zimmer playoff losses. I'll always give Zimmer credit for turning Cincy's defense into a respectable unit, but he had a deer in the headlights look in the playoffs.

Mike Zimmer = Andy Dalton

Lou Anarumo = Joe Flacco

[WeezyBengal]

(06-08-2024, 12:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Zimmer's scheme >>> Anarumo's scheme

Anarumo's FA budget >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zimmer's FA budget

Anarumo's had a below average defense in 4 of his 5 years here, but he's had some good runs in the postseason. Zimmer did some amazing things considering he had Rey Maualuga, Dre Kirkpatrick, Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, Terrence Newman, Chris Crocker, Robert Geathers, etc... just imagine if Zimmer had the ability to just add outside FAs as needed like Trey Hendrickson, DJ Reader, Vonn Bell, Chidobe Awuzie, Ogunjobi, Rankins, etc.

I'd agree with this. They drafted defense so much better under Lewis and Zimmer. 

It's still somewhat early on Lous drafts, but if the Murphy pick doesn't work out then I'm going to question him. That'd be two first round whiffs in back to back years.  

[WeezyBengal]

Lou and no one here should say otherwise.

What he did to opposing offenses in that Super Bowl run is literally all you need to know. That defense carried us.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-08-2024, 05:26 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Lou and no one here should say otherwise.

What he did to opposing offenses in that Super Bowl run is literally all you need to know. That defense carried us.

People say this but Ja’Marr Chase literally set the record for yards by a rookie receiver during that postseason. He had plenty to do with that run himself, and the success of that season in general.

[Soonerpeace]

(06-08-2024, 02:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I wholeheartedly disagree.

We had the 4th overall/6th scoring defense with these starters....
DL: Robert Geathers, Domata Peko, Tank Johnson, Jonathan Fanene
LB: Rey Maualuga, Dhani Jones, Keith Rivers
DB: Jonathan Joseph, Leon Hall, Nedu Ndukwe, Chris Crocker

We also had the 7th overall/9th scoring defense with these starters....
DL: Robert Geathers, Domata Peko, Geno Atkins, Frostee Rucker
LB: Manny Lawson, Rey Maualuga, Thomas Howard
DB: Nate Clements, Leon Hall, Chris Crocker, Reggie Neslon

Mike Zimmer got Antwan Odom in his first year and after that the next biggest outside FA we added to the defense in his 6 years here was I think Nate Clements at 2yr/$10.5m.

He did have Atkins, and Dunlap was very good, but the vast majority of our defense were not good players individually. He took a lot of bad pieces and turned them into a good collective.


... I mostly was just bummed out because I can't help but think we had a 5 year window there where if we actually participated in quality FA signing we had a couple legit SB shots there.

Hard to disagree with this

[Mer]

(06-08-2024, 05:26 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Lou and no one here should say otherwise.

What he did to opposing offenses in that Super Bowl run is literally all you need to know. That defense carried us.

This is where I'm at. I really liked Zimmer's time here but Lou's defense carried this team in the playoffs. Zimmer's defenses always seemed to disappear in the big moments of the playoffs.