Daily observations from camp

[*pally*]

(08-05-2024, 04:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Man, hope he is alright, McKinnley is about the only true Nose Tackle on the team right now.

he didn't look too bad...hopefully a heat thing

Bengals rookie DT McKinnley Jackson is being carted off the field pic.twitter.com/s6jsVEqYgK

— Kelsey Conway (@KelseyLConway) August 5, 2024

 

[BengalsLUFC]

Wonder what odds I can get on Trent Brown not lasting the season before being released?

Something isn’t sitting right with me about him.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-05-2024, 05:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Bengals are on Sirius today (8/5/24) at 5PM (EDT)

I got to listen to about 15 minutes of a candid and enlightening interview with Joey B., he's very composed and speaks highly of the culture of the team. He made specific note that having an entire receiving room that can get instruction in meetings and immediately put it on the field is a rare and significant quality with young WRs is special to have, and that the Bengals WR room is loaded with those type of guys.

[jj22]

Tough weekend of the Kragthorpe family.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2024/08/05/louisville-football-steve-kragthorpe-obituary/74677219007/

[jj22]

Notes from a couple of days at Bengals camp:

*Amarius Mims looks great. Not super tested with Hendrickson injured but he clearly belongs. I think he’s Day 1 starter — and good
*Don’t think WR3 is a solved position at all. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s by committee early
*I love…

— Benjamin Solak (@BenjaminSolak) August 5, 2024

[Brownshoe]

(08-05-2024, 07:58 PM)BengalsLUFC Wrote: Wonder what odds I can get on Trent Brown not lasting the season before being released?

Something isn’t sitting right with me about him.

Very slim I would say. We need the depth if Mims is outstanding and can beat him. Plus, he's on a prove it deal right now. He's definitely worth the money even as a depth player right now. Both times we went to the playoffs we had a tackle missing.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Ossai apparently had a good day today. Blew up a couple runs.

[*Synric*]

(08-05-2024, 08:57 PM)jj22 Wrote:

Notes from a couple of days at Bengals camp:

*Amarius Mims looks great. Not super tested with Hendrickson injured but he clearly belongs. I think he’s Day 1 starter — and good
*Don’t think WR3 is a solved position at all. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s by committee early
*I love…

— Benjamin Solak (@BenjaminSolak) August 5, 2024

Alot more 12P undercenter and boots this year in camp. Boots have been ugly for the Bengals the last few years usually ending up with the QB getting crushed by a DE.

[Soonerpeace]

(08-06-2024, 08:57 AM)Synric Wrote: Alot more 12P undercenter and boots this year in camp. Boots have been ugly for the Bengals the last few years usually ending up with the QB getting crushed by a DE.

You are one of the best X’s and O’s guys on here. They don’t run a lot of stuff because teams don’t respect our run game. A lot of the RPO stuff and under center stuff they still play it as a pass. Especially the rush end. Until we can run the ball effectively they aren’t going to expose Joe. The offense is restricted because they have to protect Joe. Or they can’t expose him at all. And it’s because they don’t trust the protection. They’ve had to play that way too long. There’s a reason he gets the ball out of his hands quicker than the rest of the QB’s. But all that limits the scheme.

If they could finally run the ball well and protect Joe I think the offense would be more diverse.

[KillerGoose]

(08-06-2024, 09:42 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You are one of the best X’s and O’s guys on here. They don’t run a lot of stuff because teams don’t respect our run game. A lot of the RPO stuff and under center stuff they still play it as a pass. Especially the rush end. Until we can run the ball effectively they aren’t going to expose Joe. The offense is restricted because they have to protect Joe. Or they can’t expose him at all. And it’s because they don’t trust the protection. They’ve had to play that way too long. There’s a reason he gets the ball out of his hands quicker than the rest of the QB’s. But all that limits the scheme.

If they could finally run the ball well and protect Joe I think the offense would be more diverse.

It's not quite binary like that. Defenders can't play a run fake like a pass play because they are leaving their gap responsibility which then opens up the run game for gashing you. Run game effectiveness doesn't really affect RPO or play-action effectiveness. They simply work because of the responsibilities of the back seven. Personally, I think a fair criticism of Burrow is that he doesn't do that great of a job trying to sell the fake which is why I think there was a shift last season of running more RPOs instead of play-action. A common Burrow play-action in shotgun is snap --> flash the ball --> set up to throw. It's not all that convincing. 

[Soonerpeace]

(08-06-2024, 09:54 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's not quite binary like that. Defenders can't play a run fake like a pass play because they are leaving their gap responsibility which then opens up the run game for gashing you. Run game effectiveness doesn't really affect RPO or play-action effectiveness. They simply work because of the responsibilities of the back seven. Personally, I think a fair criticism of Burrow is that he doesn't do that great of a job trying to sell the fake which is why I think there was a shift last season of running more RPOs instead of play-action. A common Burrow play-action in shotgun is snap --> flash the ball --> set up to throw. It's not all that convincing. 

I’ve heard when they run RPO’s the rush end doesn’t pay a lick of attention and crashes. The tackles aren’t in pass protect and can’t hold them. They can’t protect Joe. Until they can burn them with the run in the RPO’s they won’t do much. Just what I heard and not on twitter or message boards or YouTube or podcasts.

[KillerGoose]

(08-06-2024, 11:35 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’ve heard when they run RPO’s the rush end doesn’t pay a lick of attention and crashes. The tackles aren’t in pass protect and can’t hold them. They can’t protect Joe. Until they can burn them with the run in the RPO’s they won’t do much. Just what I heard and not on twitter or message boards or YouTube or podcasts.

In an RPO, the QB is typically reading the backside backer or safety. It's a run play by design and normally the defensive line is going to be accounted for. Not always, you can probably draw it up otherwise but the read man is typically a backside LB or safety. If the read man steps up, you pull it and throw it. If he stays put then you hand it off. 

[*pally*]

2. Trent Brown did O-line drills for the first time and says he’ll be ready for action quickly thanks to 9 years of NFL experience.
“I’ve got a lot of reps under my belt, so it will be fine as long as I get the terminology down. It will be like riding a horse or riding a bike. “ pic.twitter.com/iG8na7w8EI

— Dan Hoard (@Dan_Hoard) August 6, 2024

4. The defensive has won the last two days, and Lou Anarumo gives rave reviews to safeties Vonn Bell and Geno Stone.
“Their instincts on the field, anticipating things before they happen and communicating that to the rest of the group — you can’t put a price on that,” Lou said. pic.twitter.com/zNjOQNzbUX

— Dan Hoard (@Dan_Hoard) August 6, 2024

5. Holding is more of an a science than most of us realize. For instance, Even McPherson wants the nose of the ball to point slightly toward the holder, but that can vary based on wind direction (this kick would be good on a regulation goal post) pic.twitter.com/lIKCcRzabf

— Dan Hoard (@Dan_Hoard) August 6, 2024

[Soonerpeace]

(08-06-2024, 11:38 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: In an RPO, the QB is typically reading the backside backer or safety. It's a run play by design and normally the defensive line is going to be accounted for. Not always, you can probably draw it up otherwise but the read man is typically a backside LB or safety. If the read man steps up, you pull it and throw it. If he stays put then you hand it off. 

Yes but they are telling me the ends aren’t worried about the run and crashing on Joe. Leaving him vulnerable. They aren’t pausing on the fake they are playing pass period. Just what I was told.

[Au165]

(08-06-2024, 01:52 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Yes but they are telling me the ends aren’t worried about the run and crashing on Joe. Leaving him vulnerable. They aren’t pausing on the fake they are playing pass period. Just what I was told.

His point is that the DE doesn't impact an RPO at all unless they have a "Read" tagged that allows the QB to keep the ball if the end crashes. The QB is keying the LB or safety (sometimes slot if it's a bubble) and if they move with the HB action then you are putting the ball behind where they were essentially. An RPO is a quick hitter so no one is getting sacked on an RPO because there is only one read and it's binary. If they do get sacked it's because they made the wrong read and now have nowhere to go with the ball.

In the boot action game you do need a running game to keep the DE from staying home. There are ways though to make up for this, for instance running a guy in motion against the grain to chip the naked defender. Most team are going to force us to beat them running in general though, that's what happens when you have a good QB. Even if our running game had been really good, most teams will still pick to force you to beat them running than throwing because it limits possessions (unless your QB stinks).

[*Synric*]

(08-06-2024, 02:40 PM)Au165 Wrote: His point is that the DE doesn't impact an RPO at all unless they have a "Read" tagged that allows the QB to keep the ball if the end crashes. The QB is keying the LB or safety (sometimes slot if it's a bubble) and if they move with the HB action then you are putting the ball behind where they were essentially. An RPO is a quick hitter so no one is getting sacked on an RPO because there is only one read and it's binary. If they do get sacked it's because they made the wrong read and now have nowhere to go with the ball.

In the boot action game you do need a running game to keep the DE from staying home. There are ways though to make up for this, for instance running a guy in motion against the grain to chip the naked defender. Most team are going to force us to beat them running in general though, that's what happens when you have a good QB. Even if our running game had been really good, most teams will still pick to force you to beat them running than throwing because it limits possessions (unless your QB stinks).

I think a big reason the Bengals haven't been very good with Boots is that they will line up undercenter just to run the boot without the undercenter running game to set it up. 

[Soonerpeace]

(08-06-2024, 02:40 PM)Au165 Wrote: His point is that the DE doesn't impact an RPO at all unless they have a "Read" tagged that allows the QB to keep the ball if the end crashes. The QB is keying the LB or safety (sometimes slot if it's a bubble) and if they move with the HB action then you are putting the ball behind where they were essentially. An RPO is a quick hitter so no one is getting sacked on an RPO because there is only one read and it's binary. If they do get sacked it's because they made the wrong read and now have nowhere to go with the ball.

In the boot action game you do need a running game to keep the DE from staying home. There are ways though to make up for this, for instance running a guy in motion against the grain to chip the naked defender. Most team are going to force us to beat them running in general though, that's what happens when you have a good QB. Even if our running game had been really good, most teams will still pick to force you to beat them running than throwing because it limits possessions (unless your QB stinks).

Thanks for all the explanations of the RPO. I watched OU and Lincoln Riley perfect it up close a bunch. I’m just repeating what someone told me. That would know. He said they are worried about the DE in running RPO’s. Not from a success but from protecting Joe. You can slice and dice it from there. Didn’t go into detail.

[Au165]

(08-06-2024, 03:57 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Thanks for all the explanations of the RPO. I watched OU and Lincoln Riley perfect it up close a bunch. I’m just repeating what someone told me. That would know. He said they are worried about the DE in running RPO’s. Not from a success but from protecting Joe. You can slice and dice it from there. Didn’t go into detail.

The only thing I can think of is their concerned about the DE jumping up and swatting/picking it off. If they were running more of what they sometimes do in Philly where they do a fullslide, almost like they are running outsize zone or a boot, and then Hurts can read the DE and keep or throw with a two way option it would make more sense. We don't really run a read version option from what I remember, so it must be more about the passing lanes. With the RPO there really is only one option to throw to usually, sometimes two but we don't usually do that, and that is usually a quick fill where the LB was so if a DE or OLB knows it's RPO I could see that being a pick (Potentially what TJ Watt has done to us a few times).

Maybe that's their concern with not biting on the running piece because if they just keep rushing they aren't getting to Joe because it's a quick hitter so they just stop and jump up.

[Au165]

(08-06-2024, 03:06 PM)Synric Wrote: I think a big reason the Bengals haven't been very good with Boots is that they will line up undercenter just to run the boot without the undercenter running game to set it up. 

I agree. I wonder if we tinker at all with Pistol? It could be a nice compromise between Joe like being further back and the running game to be able to move downhill more.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-06-2024, 08:57 AM)Synric Wrote: Alot more 12P undercenter and boots this year in camp. Boots have been ugly for the Bengals the last few years usually ending up with the QB getting crushed by a DE.

Hopefully  Burrow is looking better with his play action, weak spot in his game