Organizational woes

[swilson3828]

I was reading something after the Bengals bungled the Baltimore game away and it was referencing having to spend money for a franchise to have sustained success. They mentioned the Chiefs player development staff consisted of approx 25 people, and the Bengals.......six. The sad reality is that Mike Brown will never pay the amount of money it would take for the team to be continually successful. He's not going to hire a first class administration, he's not going to hire a top notch coach, and he's not going to sign star players unless they're already here.....like Burrow or Chase. He'll pay one or two guys, and then go cheap in other areas to make up for the hit. That's the way it has always been with this organization and I don't know why it would change as long as Brown owns the team. Someone stated on a game thread post that this organization is such that players go to Cincinnati, they end up there.
I have no expectations of there ever being a Lombardi Trophy on permanent display in Cincinnati as long as MB owns the team. On the bright side I guess I could have been a fan of Detroit instead.

[ClarkHarris4Prez]

(10-07-2024, 09:42 PM)swilson3828 Wrote: I was reading something after the Bengals bungled the Baltimore game away and it was referencing having to spend money for a franchise to have sustained success. They mentioned the Chiefs player development staff consisted of approx 25 people, and the Bengals.......six. The sad reality is that Mike Brown will never pay the amount of money it would take for the team to be continually successful. He's not going to hire a first class administration, he's not going to hire a top notch coach, and he's not going to sign star players unless they're already here.....like Burrow or Chase. He'll pay one or two guys, and then go cheap in other areas to make up for the hit. That's the way it has always been with this organization and I don't know why it would change as long as Brown owns the team. Someone stated on a game thread post that this organization is such that players go to Cincinnati, they end up there.
I have no expectations of there ever being a Lombardi Trophy on permanent display in Cincinnati as long as MB owns the team. On the bright side I guess I could have been a fan of Detroit instead.

Hate to break it to u but being a Lions fan right now looks WAY better than being a bungles fan. They’ve got a loaded team and they actually retain and pay their best players. The future is very bleak my friend. It’s the cold hard truth.

[Sled21]

(10-07-2024, 09:42 PM)swilson3828 Wrote: I was reading something after the Bengals bungled the Baltimore game away and it was referencing having to spend money for a franchise to have sustained success.  They mentioned the Chiefs player development staff consisted of approx 25 people, and the Bengals.......six.  The sad reality is that Mike Brown will never pay the amount of money it would take for the team to be continually successful.  He's not going to hire a first class administration, he's not going to hire a top notch coach, and he's not going to sign star players unless they're already here.....like Burrow or Chase.  He'll pay one or two guys, and then go cheap in other areas to make up for the hit.  That's the way it has always been with this organization and I don't know why it would change as long as Brown owns the team.  Someone stated on a game thread post that this organization is such that players go to Cincinnati, they end up there.  
I have no expectations of there ever being a Lombardi Trophy on permanent display in Cincinnati as long as MB owns the team.  On the bright side I guess I could have been a fan of Detroit instead.

Best I can tell is the Bengals have a little under 9 million in cap space. What difference maker do you think that will sign?

[SunsetBengal]

(10-07-2024, 09:42 PM)swilson3828 Wrote: I was reading something after the Bengals bungled the Baltimore game away and it was referencing having to spend money for a franchise to have sustained success.  They mentioned the Chiefs player development staff consisted of approx 25 people, and the Bengals.......six.  The sad reality is that Mike Brown will never pay the amount of money it would take for the team to be continually successful.  He's not going to hire a first class administration, he's not going to hire a top notch coach, and he's not going to sign star players unless they're already here.....like Burrow or Chase.  He'll pay one or two guys, and then go cheap in other areas to make up for the hit.  That's the way it has always been with this organization and I don't know why it would change as long as Brown owns the team.  Someone stated on a game thread post that this organization is such that players go to Cincinnati, they end up there.  
I have no expectations of there ever being a Lombardi Trophy on permanent display in Cincinnati as long as MB owns the team.  On the bright side I guess I could have been a fan of Detroit instead.

Seems to me that the Brown/Blackburn family need to put their giant Lawyer brains to work at creating additional streams of revenue to keep up with how the NFL is currently operating.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-08-2024, 08:51 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Seems to me that the Brown/Blackburn family need to put their giant Lawyer brains to work at creating additional streams of revenue to keep up with how the NFL is currently operating.

Yep. When you can’t even come up with the guaranteed money to sign your superstar player something has to give.

[*Synric*]

I know everyone harps on the "amount of scouts" but most teams have a ton of them and still most of the league drafts meh. I'm more interested in adding a couple guys that are better at identifying OL and DL. Bengals need to self scout like they did with Justin Rascati and the Offense. Quality over Quantity.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-08-2024, 08:23 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Best I can tell is the Bengals have a little under 9 million in cap space. What difference maker do you think that will sign?

This is more of a happened in the offseason situation, but Hendrickson, Burrow, and Hubbard have $14.8m, $10.7m, and $7.8m base salaries this year. If you had restructured, say $12m, $5m, $6m of each of those into signing bonuses, that would have cleared you up another $13m in cap space this year. You can do a pretty good amount with $22m and didn't have to cut anyone other than bottom-of-the-roster guys to make space for the additions.

Danielle Hunter: 2yr/$49m (he has a cap hit of $13.7m this year)
Justin Simmons: 1yr/$6m (would actually wash out to $0 since you wouldn't sign Stone and his $6m cap hit this year)
Chidobe Awuzie: 3yr/$36m (has a $6.9m cap hit in 2024)
Tyler Boyd: 1yr/$2.4m (for when Higgins was inevitably hurt)

They'd be taking the spots of guys making at least $800k (so x4 = $3.2m in cap savings).

That's $19.8m in cap space taken up, and you've gotten better and deeper in the secondary, you've added a great pass rusher so you're not completely boned when Hendrickson comes off the field, and you've made sure Trenton Irwin doesn't get on the field in Week 1 and 2 and maybe you score enough points then to win those games.

....But that all requires the FO to spend more money than they're required to by the cap, so it was never going to happen.


- - - - - -

Even without all of that.... Andrew Van Ginkel has a $3.4m cap hit this year, and Clowney has a $6m cap hit this year. You could have added BOTH of them in FA with just our current amount of cap space without having to have done any cap gymnastics at all once you factor in the 2 bottom-roster guys making $800k each being removed from the calculation.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-08-2024, 08:58 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yep. When you can’t  even come up with the guaranteed money to sign your superstar player something has to give.

..... especially after you sent players on defense packing with the reasoning that you needed money to sign said superstar (and his sidekick for that matter).

[Bengalitis]

(10-08-2024, 04:14 AM)ClarkHarris4Prez Wrote: Hate to break it to u but being a Lions fan right now looks WAY better than being a bungles fan. They’ve got a loaded team and they actually retain and pay their best players. The future is very bleak my friend. It’s the cold hard truth.

the chiefs are doing it too.. they lose good players but they know how to replenish them..

[casear2727]

(10-08-2024, 09:46 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: the chiefs are doing it too.. they lose good players but they know how to replenish them..

Our front office is a Pee Wee Youth Football committee compared to KC.

[Nepa]

(10-08-2024, 09:46 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: the chiefs are doing it too.. they lose good players but they know how to replenish them..

The Chiefs lost a lot of their top offensive talent to injury this year -- Isiah Pacheco, Rashee Rice, Hollywood Brown -- and just keep on winning. Just a tremendous QB and creative offensive schemes. Last night they ran out formations with four tight ends at the same time! And the Kelce lateral on 3rd and 24 is something that Andy Reid said they practiced regularly. 

[ERIC1]

(10-07-2024, 09:42 PM)swilson3828 Wrote: I was reading something after the Bengals bungled the Baltimore game away and it was referencing having to spend money for a franchise to have sustained success.  They mentioned the Chiefs player development staff consisted of approx 25 people, and the Bengals.......six.  The sad reality is that Mike Brown will never pay the amount of money it would take for the team to be continually successful.  He's not going to hire a first class administration, he's not going to hire a top notch coach, and he's not going to sign star players unless they're already here.....like Burrow or Chase.  He'll pay one or two guys, and then go cheap in other areas to make up for the hit.  That's the way it has always been with this organization and I don't know why it would change as long as Brown owns the team.  Someone stated on a game thread post that this organization is such that players go to Cincinnati, they end up there.  
I have no expectations of there ever being a Lombardi Trophy on permanent display in Cincinnati as long as MB owns the team.  On the bright side I guess I could have been a fan of Detroit instead.

the bengals went to a super bowl a couple of years ago...won the AFC title...went to a conference championship gane 2 years ago and had it not been for Burrows injury last year who knows...this year it has been the perfect storm of bad.... starting defensive players and young rookies with promise all injured @ the same time on defense.........there is nothing wrong with this organization and Brown does pay his players ..Its a shitty season so far because of decimation of our defense..but it in no way takes awy from the success this club has had recently

[Soonerpeace]

(10-08-2024, 10:02 AM)ERIC1 Wrote: the bengals went to a super bowl a couple of years ago...won the AFC title...went to a conference championship gane 2 years ago and had it not been for Burrows injury last year who knows...this year it has been the perfect storm of bad.... starting defensive players and young rookies with promise all injured @ the same time on defense.........there is nothing wrong with this organization and Brown does pay his players ..Its a shitty season so far because of decimation of our defense..but it in no way takes awy from the success this club has had recently

I’ve been watching football and my teams closely for years. Some I’ve known the head coaches, players, and Administration/Mgt. The slow starts are on Zac but they looked excellent on offense Sunday. But they had to beat Wash & Pats. Best in quite some time. Ravens have a great defense. The defensive issues fall on Duke/ Lou, and Mgt. Not keeping some of our players on defense and the replacements not as good. Drafting too. Myles Murphy hasn’t started and it took until just recent to get Dax rolling. Battle isn’t starting.

The Browns of course are managing a business not a sports team. And like bank coming out of the depression era

[Frank Booth]

I dont see how the defense gets much better in the next 2 years unless they hit in free agency + hit the draft out of the park. The defense is in terrible shape with a Chase contract coming up

[Millhouse]

(10-08-2024, 10:02 AM)ERIC1 Wrote: the bengals went to a super bowl a couple of years ago...won the AFC title...went to a conference championship gane 2 years ago and had it not been for Burrows injury last year who knows...this year it has been the perfect storm of bad.... starting defensive players and young rookies with promise all injured @ the same time on defense.........there is nothing wrong with this organization and Brown does pay his players ..Its a shitty season so far because of decimation of our defense..but it in no way takes awy from the success this club has had recently

This is one way to look at it. 

The other is this organization didn't win a playoff game after Paul Brown's passing for almost 30 years. Then they sucked so bad they got Joe Burrow first pick in draft and Chase 5th the next draft, and fortunes turned around pretty quick for couple of seasons. But then no playoffs the following season, and currently 1-4 with the worst defense in football after what appears to be now poor drafts and questionable free agent moves. 

This latter is what the OP is referring to more than anything, is that the Bengals don't invest enough in evaluation positions so to speak to help keep a better constant flow of quality players going through the revolving doors. 

[CottonHill]

Posted this in the predictions thread, but the FO/scouting dept is a big part of the problem.

We take yet another player who we dont even know if they can be a plus starter and have to draft another player at the position the next year....examples:
Mims
Murphy
Hill
Probably continues into the 2nd and 3rd as well:
Jenkins Burton Jackson
Turner Battle
Britt Carter
Carman Ossai

Thats why we are where we are. Zero bonafide plus starters in rounds 1-3 since 21 Jamar Chase

[Sled21]

(10-08-2024, 09:07 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This is more of a happened in the offseason situation, but Hendrickson, Burrow, and Hubbard have $14.8m, $10.7m, and $7.8m base salaries this year. If you had restructured, say $12m, $5m, $6m of each of those into signing bonuses, that would have cleared you up another $13m in cap space this year. You can do a pretty good amount with $22m and didn't have to cut anyone other than bottom-of-the-roster guys to make space for the additions.

Danielle Hunter: 2yr/$49m (he has a cap hit of $13.7m this year)
Justin Simmons: 1yr/$6m (would actually wash out to $0 since you wouldn't sign Stone and his $6m cap hit this year)
Chidobe Awuzie: 3yr/$36m (has a $6.9m cap hit in 2024)
Tyler Boyd: 1yr/$2.4m (for when Higgins was inevitably hurt)

They'd be taking the spots of guys making at least $800k (so x4 = $3.2m in cap savings).

That's $19.8m in cap space taken up, and you've gotten better and deeper in the secondary, you've added a great pass rusher so you're not completely boned when Hendrickson comes off the field, and you've made sure Trenton Irwin doesn't get on the field in Week 1 and 2 and maybe you score enough points then to win those games.

....But that all requires the FO to spend more money than they're required to by the cap, so it was never going to happen.


- - - - - -

Even without all of that.... Andrew Van Ginkel has a $3.4m cap hit this year, and Clowney has a $6m cap hit this year. You could have added BOTH of them in FA with just our current amount of cap space without having to have done any cap gymnastics at all once you factor in the 2 bottom-roster guys making $800k each being removed from the calculation.

You want to restructure those, but what was the cap availability then? Unless someone has the charts showing everyone's cap hits for each year and the total amounts I don't see how you can criticize what you don't know. Maybe you have that information, I do not.

[DesertBengal]

Aside from improving their scouting and drafting process, I think one of the single most impactful things the Organization can do to improve is changing its willingness/ability to guarantee money past the first year of a deal.

Even if the Bengals luck into drafting an elite player, they will always struggle to keep the player on a second contract because of their willingness to guarantee money past the first year.

There has been a lot of talk about Jessie Bates over the past week… I may be wrong, but my understanding is that they tried to keep Bates, but were unable to because of the guarantees, which is where the collective hate for David Mulugheta originated from. And now the same guaranteed money issue is coming up again with Jamaar.

This reluctance to guarantee money also impacts the Bengals ability to sign high end free agents. For example, Grover Stewart and Leonard Williams both just signed 3-year deals with first 2 years of the deal fully guaranteed. Unless the Bengals are willing to match these type of guarantees, even players of this calibre would be reluctant to come to the Bengals.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(10-08-2024, 11:44 AM)CottonHill Wrote: Posted this in the predictions thread, but the FO/scouting dept is a big part of the problem.

We take yet another player who we dont even know if they can be a plus starter and have to draft another player at the position the next year....examples:
Mims
Murphy
Hill
Probably continues into the 2nd and 3rd as well:
Jenkins Burton Jackson
Turner Battle
Britt Carter
Carman Ossai

Thats why we are where we are. Zero bonafide plus starters in rounds 1-3 since 21 Jamar Chase

Mims looks legit we have many good homegrown talent Wilson and Pratt are really good LB Iosivias looks legit Volson is proving to be a success. We have had many more successes than failures over the Burrow era

[Frank Booth]

(10-08-2024, 01:58 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Mims looks legit we have many good homegrown talent Wilson and Pratt are really good LB Iosivias looks legit Volson is proving to be a success. We have had many more successes than failures over the Burrow era

wowwy, this is homerism in full display. Tobin has been bad.

how are those d-line draft picks going? did they draft a legit Bates replacement? was jonah such a smashing success that they gave him a new deal?

what? all highly unsuccessful? No way...