Drafting and Player Development

[WeezyBengal]

I'd love to know what's going on here.

We have seemingly changed our draft approach over the past few years and are prioritizing drafting athletes. Myles Murphy, Dax Hill, CTB, Yoshi, Mims, etc. I can't fault the front office for that one bit, I like that direction.

My issues and questions come next with player development. Who is responsible for player development? Position coaches, correct?

Why are these draft prospects seeminlg not getting any better? Why can't Myles Murphy, Dax, Yoshi, Battle, Turner, CTB, Ossai take that leap? Most of these guys should have the raw ability and tangibles based on draft measurables.

So the question I have is, are we drafting poor players that will never pan out, or are we not getting enough from our coaches via player develpoment? I know it's kind of a chicken and egg dillemma but it could be another sign that we have a poor coaching staff.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-29-2024, 10:07 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I'd love to know what's going on here.

We have seemingly changed our draft approach over the past few years and are prioritizing drafting athletes. Myles Murphy, Dax Hill, CTB, Yoshi, Mims, etc. I can't fault the front office for that one bit, I like that direction.

My issues and questions come next with player development. Who is responsible for player development? Position coaches, correct?

Why are these draft prospects seeminlg not getting any better? Why can't Myles Murphy, Dax, Yoshi, Battle, Turner, CTB, Ossai take that leap? Most of these guys should have the raw ability and tangibles based on draft measurables.

So the question I have is, are we drafting poor players that will never pan out, or are we not getting enough from our coaches via player develpoment? I know it's kind of a chicken and egg dillemma but it could be another sign that we have a poor coaching staff.

Hill was I think more about finding the right position for him.
He has the speed, size, and athleticism to play any DB position though.

Ossai was a converted off-ball LB, not a true DE. I'm sure the thought was since he's smaller he could win more with speed and quickness, but he never really has.
His college production was indicative he was more of a project.

Yoshi was raw, plain and simple.
He got thrust into a starter role too soon, IMO.
He needs another year (or two) to continue to develop.
Looking back at what Boyd signed for in TEN ($2.4 mill), Bengals likely could have retained him for $2.5-3.0 mill, and they should have.

Murphy I'm not sure of.
Looking back at the scouting reports, he needed to further refine his plan of attack to be more consistent.
Maybe he hasn't gotten those things figured out yet.
I would think those are more easy to coach (mainly use of hands, imbed some strategy based on scouting your upcoming opponent for the week), but maybe it's not as easy as I think.

CTB is fine, but he was always more of a risk taker that sometimes backfired on him, even in college. You still see that some today.
When was the last time the Bengals really nailed it on a CB draft pick?
Was it...Leon Hall?

Don't forget Zach Carter, who was pretty athletic but a tweener in terms of size. Only 282 lbs. Really more of a 3-4 DE body.
He was an effective pass rusher at Florida, but they moved him all over the DL based on matchup.
It might be he just doesn't have the chops to hang inside full-time against NFL-caliber IOL and might need to go to a team who primarily runs a 3-4.

[WeezyBengal]

(10-29-2024, 10:30 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Hill was I think more about finding the right position for him.
He has the speed, size, and athleticism to play any DB position though.

Ossai was a converted off-ball LB, not a true DE. I'm sure the thought was since he's smaller he could win more with speed and quickness, but he never really has.
His college production was indicative he was more of a project.

Yoshi was raw, plain and simple.
He got thrust into a starter role too soon, IMO.
He needs another year (or two) to continue to develop.
Looking back at what Boyd signed for in TEN ($2.4 mill), Bengals likely could have retained him for $2.5-3.0 mill, and they should have.

Murphy I'm not sure of.
Looking back at the scouting reports, he needed to further refine his plan of attack to be more consistent.
Maybe he hasn't gotten those things figured out yet.
I would think those are more easy to coach (mainly use of hands, imbed some strategy based on scouting your upcoming opponent for the week), but maybe it's not as easy as I think.

CTB is fine, but he was always more of a risk taker that sometimes backfired on him, even in college. You still see that some today.
When was the last time the Bengals really nailed it on a CB draft pick?
Was it...Leon Hall?

Don't forget Zach Carter, who was pretty athletic but a tweener in terms of size. Only 282 lbs. Really more of a 3-4 DE body.
He was an effective pass rusher at Florida, but they moved him all over the DL based on matchup.
It might be he just doesn't have the chops to hang inside full-time against NFL-caliber IOL and might need to go to a team who primarily runs a 3-4.

Feel like your assments are pretty accurate and its kind of a combination of both maybe. I think you also have to look at it through a vaccum with each player. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-29-2024, 10:07 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I'd love to know what's going on here.

We have seemingly changed our draft approach over the past few years and are prioritizing drafting athletes. Myles Murphy, Dax Hill, CTB, Yoshi, Mims, etc. I can't fault the front office for that one bit, I like that direction.

My issues and questions come next with player development. Who is responsible for player development? Position coaches, correct?

Why are these draft prospects seeminlg not getting any better? Why can't Myles Murphy, Dax, Yoshi, Battle, Turner, CTB, Ossai take that leap? Most of these guys should have the raw ability and tangibles based on draft measurables.

So the question I have is, are we drafting poor players that will never pan out, or are we not getting enough from our coaches via player develpoment? I know it's kind of a chicken and egg dillemma but it could be another sign that we have a poor coaching staff.

Me too

Besides the pretty much couldn't miss picks of Burrow, Chase, and Higgins our top end draft picks have sucked and not panned out. You can't miss this much in rounds 1-3 and not kill your team.

2019 rd1 11 Jonah Williams - gone the 11th pick in the draft and at least a partial flop ? 

2021 rd2 46 Jackson Carman - gone total bust!!

2021 rd3 69 Joseph Ossai - sure is leaning hard towards being a waste of a pick.

2022 rd1 31 Dax Hill - drafted at Safety now switched to CB ?? book kinda still out on but not getting a warm fuzzy feeling

2022 rd3 95 Zach Carter - isn't moving needle a whole lot

2023 rd1 28 Myles Murphy - is leaning very hard towards a bust and being way overdrafted.

2023 rd3 95 Jordan Battle - pff grade 45.4 has regressed and barely sees the field

This for sure is one of the reasons we're 3-5 and our playoff hopes are on life support.

[WeezyBengal]

(10-29-2024, 10:42 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Me too

Besides the pretty much couldn't miss picks of Burrow, Chase, and Higgins our top end draft picks have sucked and not panned out. You can't miss this much in rounds 1-3 and not kill your team.

2019 rd1 11 Jonah Williams - gone the 11th pick in the draft and at least a partial flop ? 

2021 rd2 46 Jackson Carman - gone total bust!!

2021 rd3 69 Joseph Ossai - sure is leaning hard towards being a waste of a pick.

2022 rd1 31 Dax Hill - drafted at Safety now switched to CB ?? book kinda still out on but not getting a warm fuzzy feeling

2022 rd3 95 Zach Carter - isn't moving needle a whole lot

2023 rd1 28 Myles Murphy - is leaning very hard towards a bust and being way overdrafted.

2023 rd3 95 Jordan Battle - pff grade 45.4 has regressed and barely sees the field

This for sure is one of the reasons we're 3-5 and our playoff hopes are on life support.

Zach Carter aint on the team anymore lol 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-29-2024, 10:30 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Hill was I think more about finding the right position for him.
He has the speed, size, and athleticism to play any DB position though.

Ossai was a converted off-ball LB, not a true DE. I'm sure the thought was since he's smaller he could win more with speed and quickness, but he never really has.
His college production was indicative he was more of a project.

Yoshi was raw, plain and simple.
He got thrust into a starter role too soon, IMO.
He needs another year (or two) to continue to develop.
Looking back at what Boyd signed for in TEN ($2.4 mill), Bengals likely could have retained him for $2.5-3.0 mill, and they should have.

Murphy I'm not sure of.
Looking back at the scouting reports, he needed to further refine his plan of attack to be more consistent.
Maybe he hasn't gotten those things figured out yet.
I would think those are more easy to coach (mainly use of hands, imbed some strategy based on scouting your upcoming opponent for the week), but maybe it's not as easy as I think.

CTB is fine, but he was always more of a risk taker that sometimes backfired on him, even in college. You still see that some today.
When was the last time the Bengals really nailed it on a CB draft pick?
Was it...Leon Hall?

Don't forget Zach Carter, who was pretty athletic but a tweener in terms of size. Only 282 lbs. Really more of a 3-4 DE body.
He was an effective pass rusher at Florida, but they moved him all over the DL based on matchup.
It might be he just doesn't have the chops to hang inside full-time against NFL-caliber IOL and might need to go to a team who primarily runs a 3-4.

So that all reeks of poor scouting to me .....

[THE PISTONS]

(10-29-2024, 11:24 AM)Wyche Wrote: So that all reeks of poor scouting to me .....

Yep. We hit on Burrow, Chase, and Higgins so people assume we drafted well. Then, they were on rookie contracts, so we could afford good free agents.

Now we're back to whiffing on value free agents and draft picks.

Pretty easy to see the problem chain.

[Clark W Griswold]

If this were Jeopardy my answer to the title of this thread would be “What are two things the Bengals are terrible at?”

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-29-2024, 11:02 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Zach Carter aint on the team anymore lol 

oops 

But still another wasted top end pick

[WeezyBengal]

(10-29-2024, 11:24 AM)Wyche Wrote: So that all reeks of poor scouting to me .....

Bingo. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-29-2024, 10:30 AM)ochocincos Wrote: When was the last time the Bengals really nailed it on a CB draft pick?
Was it...Leon Hall?

2016 when we stole WJ3 right from Pittsburgh's grasp to be our 4th CB, obviously. 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/5/4/11580946/nfl-draft-results-cincy-jungles-grades-for-bengals-2016-class
(A, A, A, A-, B+.... Actually funny to note that 3 of the 5 guys had Tyler Boyd as their least favorite pick and he was the only good player in that draft for us.)

[*jason*]

(10-29-2024, 12:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2016 when we stole WJ3 right from Pittsburgh's grasp to be our 4th CB, obviously. 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/5/4/11580946/nfl-draft-results-cincy-jungles-grades-for-bengals-2016-class
(A, A, A, A-, B+.... Actually funny to note that 3 of the 5 guys had Tyler Boyd as their least favorite pick and he was the only good player in that draft for us.)

Their revenge was swift with the pick of Devin Bush.

[puddycat]

Off: Burrow, Chase, Higgins, Iosivas, Sample, Volson, Sims
Def: Hubbard, Wilson, Pratt, CTB, Turner
It's is not a bad list of starting players that were drafted and developed by the Bengals. Of 12 players there are 4 1sts, 3 2nds, 3 3rds, 1 4th and 1 6th. Half are on their rookie contracts. I get that we're not particularly happy with the 4th and 6th picks right now.
I agree that the team doesn't hit (or develop) on our later picks. What seems more problematic is that the units built from mostly FAs: OL, DL, and S seem to be the worst performing units, not because we are papering over weak units, but because the FA players we choose aren't performing. Similarly, our chosen (paid) superstars are not elevating the play of the players around them right now.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Current Bengals from the '21, '22, '23 and '24 draft classes that are grading in the PFF top-100 on offense and defense:

OFF:
Ja'Marr Chase: 82.0 (19th)
Chase Brown: 68.7 (91st)

DEF:
Dax Hill: 68.2 (69th)
DJ Turner: 67.1 (82nd)

The Bengals have drafted 34 players since '21.

— Andrew Russell (@Andrew_Russell7) October 29, 2024

*whispers it’s Duke*

[Bengalbug]

(10-29-2024, 02:10 PM)puddycat Wrote: Off: Burrow, Chase, Higgins, Iosivas, Sample, Volson, Sims
Def: Hubbard, Wilson, Pratt, CTB, Turner
It's is not a bad list of starting players that were drafted and developed by the Bengals. Of 12 players there are 4 1sts, 3 2nds, 3 3rds, 1 4th and 1 6th. Half are on their rookie contracts. I get that we're not particularly happy with the 4th and 6th picks right now.
I agree that the team doesn't hit (or develop) on our later picks. What seems more problematic is that the units built from mostly FAs: OL, DL, and S seem to be the worst performing units, not because we are papering over weak units, but because the FA players we choose aren't performing. Similarly, our chosen (paid) superstars are not elevating the play of the players around them right now.

Outside of Chase burrow and Higgins, the rest of those guys are JAGs. Iosivas is not good.

[Mer]

There's a reason so many teams pass on the players we love to draft.  They aren't that good and teams with an actual scouting department figure that out. The Bengals see a first round grade on a player that's still there in the 2nd or 3rd round and think he's a steal instead of realizing he fell for a reason. He's not that good.

[Frank Booth]

(10-30-2024, 12:12 AM)Mer Wrote: There's a reason so many teams pass on the players we love to draft.  They aren't that good and teams with an actual scouting department figure that out. The Bengals see a first round grade on a player that's still there in the 2nd or 3rd round and think he's a steal instead of realizing he fell for a reason. He's not that good.

I think they do more of the opposite. Reaching for guys multiple rounds earlier than expected. Drew Sample, Jackson Carman, Zach Carter, Myles Murphy

[Housh]

(10-30-2024, 12:53 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: I think they do more of the opposite. Reaching for guys multiple rounds earlier than expected. Drew Sample, Jackson Carman, Zach Carter, Myles Murphy

Yeah i actually think they’d draft better if they did what the poster said lol

Literally every guy you listed was projected to be there maybe 1 or 2 rounds later

[Housh]

The thing is building thru the draft is ok if you can actually draft well.

If you can’t actually draft well and NEVER have under Mike Brown then saying you build thru the draft just comes off as an excuse to be cheap


We are basically a feeder program for actual good teams


What’s the point of building through thr draft if you are just gonna let guys that get good walk?