Coaching...or Talent?

[Whatever]

When a club performs below expectations, typically , fans look to coaching first. After all, it's easier to replace coaches than it is to rebuild a bad roster. But often, the roster is the problem and coaches wind up as scapegoats to appease the fan base. It's easy to sell the hope that a new coaching staff will just come in, wave a magic wand, and suddenly the team will start winning.

Let's look at the offensive side, first. Firstly, the premium draft capital on that side of the ball...

1st rounders-Burrow, Chase, Mims

2nd rounders-Sample, Higgins

3rd rounders-Burton

So, 6 guys we took with Day 1 or 2 picks are on the roster. Burrow got his bag. Chase deserves his bag. Debate still rages on how good Tee actually is, but nobody would dispute he was worth a 2nd. Mims looks promising. Sample and Burton have disappointed, for different reasons.

Now onto the defense...

1st rounders-Hill, Murphy

2nd rounders-CTB, Turner, Jenkins

3rd rounders-Hubbard, Pratt, Wilson, Ossai, Carter, Battle, Jackson

So, even though we have to curve for draft position, out of 6 Day 1/2 picks on offense, we landed 2 elite level starters, 1 quality starter, 1 guy trending towards being a quality starter, a backup/role player, and a guy who has talent, but is trending towards busting due to character issues.

On D, we have 12 Day 1/2 picks, double that of the offense. Out of those, none are elite starters. Three you could say are quality starters(Pratt, Wilson, Hubbard when healthy). Other than those three, we've got a bunch of replacement level starters/rotational guys/backups. That's terrible return on investment, especially when you consider Hubbard wasn't really developed by this staff.

On the flip side, the offense currently has three Day 3 draft picks in starting roles. The defense has none.

Looks to me like the issues on offense are talent related and the issues on defense are related more to scheme and coaching. Thoughts?

[WeezyBengal]

We talk about this every week. It's really quite simple.

They let their good players walk because they didnt want to pay them and replaced them with inferior, cheaper players.

They whiffed on draft picks.

That's literally it.

[Bengalbug]

I’m going to go talent. This is a timely thread as I did some number crunching.

Since tee has been out,

There have been 122 targets to pass catchers.

Jamar Chase - 35 targets, 31 catches (89% catch) for 361 yards and 4 TD.
Tight ends - 42 targets, 33 catches (79%), for 315 yards and 4 TDs
RB - 22 targets, 20 catches (91%), for 118 yards and a touchdown.
All other WR (it’s gross) - 23 targets, 7 catches (30%), for 104 yards and 1 TD.

I hate beating a dead horse, but with a reliable 3rd option (or 2nd when tee is hurt), we are not doing silly 4th down plays in the eagles and ravens games. We are controlling clock, extending drives and keeping other good QBs on the sideline. The ravens have rashod Bateman who can make plays when needed, in addition to Andrews/Likely and justice hill. They also went out and got Dionte Johnson.

Zac called an incredible game yesterday, with what he had. But we have practice squad WRs we are trotting out there, playing meaningful
Snaps.

[*Nately120*]

I'm sure some smarter fartball mind than mine will correct me, but whodathunk that a HC and FO who were bad enough to get Burrow and Chase wouldn't be aces at using them.

[*bfine32*]

(11-08-2024, 06:09 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm sure some smarter fartball mind than mine will correct me, but whodathunk that a HC and FO who were bad enough to get Burrow and Chase wouldn't be aces at using them.

I'm here to correct you

[Bengalfan4life27c]

I just want someone from the Shanahan tree as head coach if we had a 49er style of offense we would be unstoppable offensively.

[*Nately120*]

(11-08-2024, 06:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm here to correct you

I wish we'd have hired a crappier HC than ZT so we could have been able to draft Burrow, Chase, and then Aiden Hutchinson...THEN we could have hired ZT and won it all over and over again.

[*bfine32*]

(11-08-2024, 06:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I wish we'd have hired a crappier HC than ZT so we could have been able to draft Burrow, Chase, and then Aiden Hutchinson...THEN we could have hired ZT and won it all over and over again.

[Clark W Griswold]

(11-08-2024, 06:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I wish we'd have hired a crappier HC than ZT so we could have been able to draft Burrow, Chase, and then Aiden Hutchinson...THEN we could have hired ZT and won it all over and over again.

Yeah I think about how “lucky” the Bengals were that Burrow got his knee taken out in his rookie season. With JB they would have won at least a couple more games and then no Chase

The only really good pick they have had was Higgins. Burrow after his last college season was an easy choice and then of course they were going to take his talented buddy at a need position the next year (thanks again Falcons)

Tee fell into their lap but he was a second rounder and not a “no brainer” pick like Burrow and Chase were.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-08-2024, 05:54 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: We talk about this every week. It's really quite simple.

They let their good players walk because they didnt want to pay them and replaced them with inferior, cheaper players.

They whiffed on draft picks.

That's literally it.

That's a bingo! Fire Duke Tobin!!!!

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

[J24]

(11-08-2024, 07:55 PM)Wyche Wrote: That's a bingo! Fire Duke Tobin!!!!

It's more fire the Blackburns than Tobin.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Can anyone point out a game where the Bengals outcoached another team?

[Chezaugie]

It is always a mix of both, however, Bengal fans always overestimate the talent on this team. This team, aside from the obvious elite 3-5 players, is just average, if not bad. I would venture to say that at least half of the 22 team starters would not be starters on 75% of all NFL teams. As such, the Bengals are an average team destined for a 8-9 win season this year. Fire Zac and Lou and it won't necessarily change with the players that are now on the roster. Bottom line, this is an overall weak team.

[Bengalbug]

(11-08-2024, 06:13 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: I just want someone from the Shanahan tree as head coach if we had a 49er style of offense we would be unstoppable offensively.

The bengals are scoring the 6th most points on a PPG basis. This is with an average OL, below average WR group (Behind Chase and if/when Higgins plays), below average TE room and Runningbacks

Who is scoring more on a PPG basis right now from the shanahan tree?

This offense is just Inconsistent and putting to much weight on Joe burrow. The shanahan and mcvay tree (Zac is from there), usually requires a good running game.

Zac will never say it, but I’m sure he would love to see some
Changes at a lot of position coaches. Maybe him and burrow and pull a coup in the offseason.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-08-2024, 08:25 PM)J24 Wrote: It's more fire the Blackburns than Tobin.

This is where I'm at. 

No way Duke didn't want to keep Jessie Bates. It's one of his best draft picks ever. The extension was on the table. It wasn't good enough. Same thing with Tee. 

That falls on the Blackburn's.

Our inability to draft recently? That's on Tobin. 

[Bengalbug]

(11-08-2024, 05:54 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: We talk about this every week. It's really quite simple.

They let their good players walk because they didnt want to pay them and replaced them with inferior, cheaper players.

They whiffed on draft picks.

That's literally it.

Many board members were happy to let Boyd walk, with our depth of experience in the WR room.

[Destro]

(11-08-2024, 08:33 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Can anyone point out a game where the Bengals outcoached another team?

Think I got one on my VCR.

[Bengalbug]

(11-08-2024, 08:33 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Can anyone point out a game where the Bengals outcoached another team?

Bills and 9ers last year, to start.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(11-08-2024, 09:43 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: The bengals are scoring the 6th most points on a PPG basis.  This is with an average OL, below average WR group (Behind Chase and if/when Higgins plays), below average TE room and Runningbacks

Who is scoring more on a PPG basis right now from the shanahan tree?

This offense is just Inconsistent and putting to much weight on Joe burrow.  The shanahan and mcvay tree (Zac is from there), usually requires a good running game.

Zac will never say it, but I’m sure he would love to see some
Changes at a lot of position coaches.  Maybe him and burrow and pull a coup in the offseason.

But the Shanahan tree can take a late round or undrafted FA RB and turn him into a star. No offense to Purdy Deebo and Aiyuk they arent even close talent wise to Burrow Chase and Higgins and 49ers have similar production. + they smash opposing teams will in the 2nd half of games we don't have that.