A Hidden Positive with Higgins Out

[QueenCity]

(11-09-2024, 02:03 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: Tee showed up to camp on day one given everything he had with no contract in sight doing everything he could to help us this season and as soon as gets hurt you got unappreciative fans bitching left and right insinuating that he's dogging it..

I get it he's had some bad luck on the injury front in his career but Tee Higgins has been a world class member of this Bengals team and people need to put some respect on this kids name it's treatment of some of you fans that's reason this franchise is so damn unlucky as it is now..

Being a world class person doesn't mean you deserve a huge contract. His injury concerns are real not manufactured. Yes the offense is humming without him.

A huge factor that people also forget about is you can use a 1st or 2nd to draft a WR and Bengals typically hit on that position in those 2 rounds. 

Now would I use a pick next year on a WR no I'd bring in a FA as the defense is more important. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-09-2024, 12:27 PM)samhain Wrote: There's no way to argue that this season hasn't sucked.  

Even so, there's one thing that I think has been made pretty clear:  This offense does not need Tee Higgins to thrive.  Burrow has gone off for 2 straight weeks without him.  He's proven that he most certainly is what we thought he was, ie a truly elite QB1 that can make an offense out of lesser parts when he has to.  Chase had 250 plus and 3 tds vs the Ravens without Tee on the field to divert attention.  Tee has been available for a total of 4 games. The offense, with the exception of the NE game, has largely looked fine..

Could they have used him vs Philly?  No doubt.  Is he a necessity?  IDK anymore.

I think his departure is a disguised blessing.  It will force them to utilize the TE more effectively (which they have), and also put more emphasis on the run game (ugh.)

To summarize: Burrow and Chase are enough without Tee.  This offense isn't going to turn into a pumpkin while he misses half the games for another team while making 27 mil per or so in 2025.

I agree as usual Sam. Loved how Tee played when he was healthy but he is just injury prone and not worth extending for us. Just cannot 
count on him and as we all thought Chase will be the highest paid WR in the NFL rightfully so and we need to pony up. Bring back Gesicki, 
add some weapons in FA and the Draft and we will be just fine when Tee goes somewhere else to play about half the games every season.

Tee is a good man and will wish him the best once he goes.

[Whacked]

I think JB ……playing the way he is …..can win w/o Tee and we need spend money on the D. He has not always been this SICK though.

Regardless, I’m all in to rebuild the D.

I’d love to beef up the OL too but Joe is playing so dang well that even several of these incompetent scrubs on OL aren’t holding him back. He is playing lights out.

Spend every penny left on the D …..after breaking the bank on Chase.

[Frank Booth]

(11-09-2024, 04:09 PM)Whacked Wrote: I think JB ……playing the way he is …..can win w/o Tee and we need spend money on the D. He has not always been this SICK though.

Regardless, I’m all in to rebuild the D.

I’d love to beef up the OL too but Joe is playing so dang well that even several of these incompetent scrubs on OL aren’t holding him back. He is playing lights out.

Spend every penny left on the D …..after breaking the bank on Chase.

nah they have to upgrade one of the interior spots at the very least. He's taking too many hits, and the run game overall is still poor. Gotta upgrade the G spot

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-09-2024, 04:13 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: nah they have to upgrade one of the interior spots at the very least. He's taking too many hits, and the run game overall is still poor. Gotta upgrade the G spot

Won’t happen. They’ll just keep their heads in the sand, and our HC will say stupid shit like this.

Asked Zac Taylor about Joe Burrow taking 13 QB hits against BAL: “It’s a really talented defense. When you throw the ball that many times it is going to happen. He does a great job buying time until the end to give his (receivers) a chance. So, often, probably some of those hits…

— Charlie Clifford (@char_cliff) November 8, 2024

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2024, 04:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Won’t happen. They’ll just keep their heads in the sand, and our HC will say stupid shit like this.

Asked Zac Taylor about Joe Burrow taking 13 QB hits against BAL: “It’s a really talented defense. When you throw the ball that many times it is going to happen. He does a great job buying time until the end to give his (receivers) a chance. So, often, probably some of those hits…

— Charlie Clifford (@char_cliff) November 8, 2024

Why is that stupid? he's echoing exactly what JB has asserted in the past. 

We could go back to Andy Dalton days of quick release, but IDT Joe wants that.

Of course, everyone wants JB to be able to take the time he wants and not get hit but we've tried every off-season to improve the online. Cappa was once one of those moves but now he's digressed. I would not be surprised to see it addressed this off-season

[Frank Booth]

(11-09-2024, 04:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Won’t happen. They’ll just keep their heads in the sand, and our HC will say stupid shit like this.

Asked Zac Taylor about Joe Burrow taking 13 QB hits against BAL: “It’s a really talented defense. When you throw the ball that many times it is going to happen. He does a great job buying time until the end to give his (receivers) a chance. So, often, probably some of those hits…

— Charlie Clifford (@char_cliff) November 8, 2024

just coach speak. I think they upgrade one of the spots for next year. Will it be a big upgrade? probably not unfortunately

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2024, 04:46 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: just coach speak. I think they upgrade one of the spots for next year. Will it be a big upgrade? probably not unfortunately

I'm hoping for James Daniels

[Nicomo Cosca]

Subpar play should be called out. Period. I don’t want to hear that it’s the QB holding onto the ball. The Ravens recorded 40 pressures Thursday night tying for the highest amount in a game this season. That doesn’t happen without abysmal OL play.

[Sled21]

(11-09-2024, 02:03 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: Tee showed up to camp on day one given everything he had with no contract in sight doing everything he could to help us this season and as soon as gets hurt you got unappreciative fans bitching left and right insinuating that he's dogging it..

I get it he's had some bad luck on the injury front in his career but Tee Higgins has been a world class member of this Bengals team and people need to put some respect on this kids name it's treatment of some of you fans that's reason this franchise is so damn unlucky as it is now..

No one said or even insinuated he was dogging it. He is definitely NOT dogging it because he needs to have a great year to get his next contract where he wants it. What I said is he is not going to get healthier as he ages, and he has trouble staying on the field with his hamstrings. Doesn't matter how good a player or how good a guy he is, he does not help this team from the bench.

[samhain]

(11-09-2024, 07:57 PM)Sled21 Wrote: No one said or even insinuated he was dogging it. He is definitely NOT dogging it because he needs to have a great year to get his next contract where he wants it. What I said is he is not going to get healthier as he ages, and he has trouble staying on the field with his hamstrings. Doesn't matter how good a player or how good a guy he is, he does not help this team from the bench.

He's had problems staying healthy since college.  

He seems like a top notch player and person.

Unfortunately, he lacks the most important ability, availability.  

[samhain]

(11-09-2024, 04:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm hoping for James Daniels

I wanted him when he left Chicago for the Steelers.

[samhain]

(11-09-2024, 04:09 PM)Whacked Wrote: I think JB ……playing the way he is …..can win w/o Tee and we need spend money on the D. He has not always been this SICK though.

Regardless, I’m all in to rebuild the D.

I’d love to beef up the OL too but Joe is playing so dang well that even several of these incompetent scrubs on OL aren’t holding him back. He is playing lights out.

Spend every penny left on the D …..after breaking the bank on Chase.

When this team was peaking, the defense was bailing the offense out more than people's memories might suggest.  They made key plays at critical points in games.  They seemed to do it routinely.  It almost became expected.  Lou's witchcraft with halftime adjustments was second to none at the time.  

We don't need a shutdown defense.  I'm not even sure that's a thing in the modern NFL.  We just need a defense that can hold a decent offense to 21 or less.  

[Frank Booth]

(11-09-2024, 08:43 PM)samhain Wrote: When this team was peaking, the defense was bailing the offense out more than people's memories might suggest.  They made key plays at critical points in games.  They seemed to do it routinely.  It almost became expected.  Lou's witchcraft with halftime adjustments was second to none at the time.  

We don't need a shutdown defense.  I'm not even sure that's a thing in the modern NFL.  We just need a defense that can hold a decent offense to 21 or less.  

having the best run stuffing defensive tackle, and one of the best ball hawk safeties certainly helped the 21 and 22 teams. One dominant guy in the front, one dominant guy in the back. And yes, Bates was dominant in the postseason.

replacing Reader and Bates with Rankins and Stone is the biggest reason why this defense just isnt working

[samhain]

(11-09-2024, 08:47 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: having the best run stuffing defensive tackle, and one of the best ball hawk safeties certainly helped the 21 and 22 teams. One dominant guy in the front, one dominant guy in the back. And yes, Bates was dominant in the postseason.

replacing Reader and Bates with Rankins and Stone is the biggest reason why this defense just isnt working

Both are rare players.  I said for 2 years that finding a guy to man centerfield in single high was going to be a tough ask.  Bates was as good as it gets at it.  

Same with Reader.  There aren't a lot of good NTs in the league.  You can count them on one hand, and that's generous.  It's hard to evaluate them coming in from college.  Not a premium position, but also a really difficult one to develop.  FWIW, I'm not overly down on Jackson.  He might be okay.  He's better than I expected at this point honestly.  Def no Reader though, and expecting him to be is unreasonable.

[J24]

The last Baltimore game was an outlier. The prior data shows that the offense is substantially better with Tee in it.

Outside of @Baltimore game Chase is averaging 48 yards and only has 1 Td in the 4 games without Tee. With Tee he is averaging 104 yards per game and has 5 Tds.

Also the Bengals are 1-3 in those games and averaging 23.25 points vs 28.6 points with Tee.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-09-2024, 09:47 PM)samhain Wrote: Both are rare players.  I said for 2 years that finding a guy to man centerfield in single high was going to be a tough ask.  Bates was as good as it gets at it.  

Same with Reader.  There aren't a lot of good NTs in the league.  You can count them on one hand, and that's generous.  It's hard to evaluate them coming in from college.  Not a premium position, but also a really difficult one to develop.  FWIW, I'm not overly down on Jackson.  He might be okay.  He's better than I expected at this point honestly.  Def no Reader though, and expecting him to be is unreasonable.

I seriously don't understand all the crying over spilt milk here with Bates. It was understanded by most that he was not going to be
paid by the Bengals. We drafted Dax Hill and yes, it was a bad move because he wasn't the same player, but it is what it is. DJ on the
other hand should of been brought back and McKinnley Jackson to me could be just as good as Reader from what I am seeing.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-10-2024, 01:51 AM)J24 Wrote: The last Baltimore game was an outlier. The prior data shows that the offense is substantially better with Tee in it.

Outside of @Baltimore game Chase is averaging 48 yards and only has 1 Td in the 4 games without Tee. With Tee he is averaging 104 yards per game and has 5 Tds.

Also the Bengals are 1-3 in those games and averaging 23.25 points vs 28.6 points with Tee.

We’ve been over this before but Chase has had enough games now where he produced without Tee that you can’t really call it an outlier.

2024 vs BAL - 264 yards 3 TD’s
2023 vs ARZ - 192 yards 3 TD’s
2023 vs HOU - 124 yards 1 TD
2023 vs Pitt - 81 yards
2022 vs Pitt - 129 yards 1 TD (Tee left this game and only played 26% of the snaps)
2022 vs CLV - 119 yards 1 TD
2021 vs Pitt - 65 yards 2 TD’s
2021 vs JAX - 77 yards

At the end of the day does having Tee out there make things easier on both Joe and Ja’Marr? Ofc it does. But do they completely fall off a cliff every time they don’t have him? No. The 12 personnel stuff they were working into the offense this season was probably a preview of what the post-Tee era will look like.

[Sled21]

(11-09-2024, 04:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Won’t happen. They’ll just keep their heads in the sand, and our HC will say stupid shit like this.

Asked Zac Taylor about Joe Burrow taking 13 QB hits against BAL: “It’s a really talented defense. When you throw the ball that many times it is going to happen. He does a great job buying time until the end to give his (receivers) a chance. So, often, probably some of those hits…

— Charlie Clifford (@char_cliff) November 8, 2024

What he said is 100% correct. Joe often holds the ball too long in an effort to extend plays and doesn't care if he gets hit unless it's 3rd down and a sac takes us out of FG range. He said it himself. 

[samhain]

(11-10-2024, 03:45 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I seriously don't understand all the crying over spilt milk here with Bates. It was understanded by most that he was not going to be
paid by the Bengals. We drafted Dax Hill and yes, it was a bad move because he wasn't the same player, but it is what it is. DJ on the
other hand should of been brought back and McKinnley Jackson to me could be just as good as Reader from what I am seeing.

You just answered your own question, Nate.  You say that it was understood that he wasn't going to be paid by the organization.  Why is that acceptable?  I get that the team more or less sold that narrative to the fans for a few years.  Why?  

Jesse Bates was drafted in the Billy Price draft.  That's 2018 if I'm not mistaken.  He should have been extended around when Mixon was.  There were no other players worth paying on the roster at that point (from a long-term perspective).  Maybe Hubbard.  

Bates was a culture guy for Taylor.  He believed in the new staff while others like Dunlap defected and Geno retired.  He supported Taylor/Anarumo when almost nobody did.  

In other words, he was exactly the kind of player you reward with a contract extension.  Homegrown, semi-local (from Indiana, I think), transitional between two regimes, and capable of elite to near-elite play.  

Why would an organization tell it's fans and players to just accept that a guy like that is leaving?  Two reasons I can think of: 1. They really are so entrenched in the idea of "premium positions" that they can't wrap their heads around paying a safety big money.  2. They really had no idea how significant the impact of losing Bates would be, which is also unacceptable.

It's not crying over spilled milk if the overall cultural problem persists.  The milk will spill again.  Over and over.  With guards like Kevin Zeitler and Eric Steinbach.  With safeties like Bates.  They have a hierarchy of premium positions and it makes no sense anymore.  You pay known good players, period.  It's on them to understand their importance and impact.