Donovan Jackson

[Luvnit2]

(Yesterday, 01:22 PM)Whatever Wrote: Losing a QB drafted in the Top 10 and replacing him with a cancer survivor will do that to individual production.

I'm not going to knock Warren as a prospect, because I like him, too.  But no need to tear down Loveland, either.  Both would look great in stripes.

I have no stake in Loveland's career. I said he has a high ceiling, not sure why you jumped to tearing him down.

I watched him 2023 and 2024, I just don't get a great feeling he will be a great TE in the NFL. He will be a first or second round pick, it will be up to him to live up to his draft status. I am not rooking against the guy (unless Ravens, Browns, Chiefs or Steelers draft him).

[Whatever]

(Yesterday, 01:41 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I have no stake in Loveland's career. I said he has a high ceiling, not sure why you jumped to tearing him down.

I watched him 2023 and 2024, I just don't get a great feeling he will be a great TE in the NFL. He will be a first or second round pick, it will be up to him to live up to his draft status. I am not rooking against the guy (unless Ravens, Browns, Chiefs or Steelers draft him).

I mean, you said you don't see a "great TE" at the NFL level.

Warren, I believe is a "safer" pick because of his blocking ability and his ability to find soft spots in zone coverage.  If you think of what you want out out of a solid starting TE, you want a good blocker and a zone beater.  But star type production will be highly dependent on an innovative OC that will get him the ball in a variety of ways, not to mention a supporting cast that warrants him receiving a significant volume of manufactured touches.  

Loveland is lower floor, but higher upside in my view.  Watch Warren after watching Loveland and Warren looks positively stiff.  Loveland has elite potential as a receiver.  He's not a bad blocker, but if he can't make the leap to the next level in that area, then he's going to be a Gesicki type sub package move TE, which is why I say the floor is lower.  But the potential as a receiver is mouth watering.

[Luvnit2]

(Yesterday, 04:47 PM)Whatever Wrote: I mean, you said you don't see a "great TE" at the NFL level.

Warren, I believe is a "safer" pick because of his blocking ability and his ability to find soft spots in zone coverage.  If you think of what you want out out of a solid starting TE, you want a good blocker and a zone beater.  But star type production will be highly dependent on an innovative OC that will get him the ball in a variety of ways, not to mention a supporting cast that warrants him receiving a significant volume of manufactured touches.  

Loveland is lower floor, but higher upside in my view.  Watch Warren after watching Loveland and Warren looks positively stiff.  Loveland has elite potential as a receiver.  He's not a bad blocker, but if he can't make the leap to the next level in that area, then he's going to be a Gesicki type sub package move TE, which is why I say the floor is lower.  But the potential as a receiver is mouth watering.

I also said I am no expert and when did being a good TE in the NFL become a bad thing.

For me, there are 1st round TE prospects who need to be awesome if a team is going to spend a 1st round pick and 1st round money on them versus a TE in round 2 or later. TE is not a position picked a lot in the 1st round due to the projected high costs of other positions like QB, CB, OT, WR and Edge rusher. 

You think he has mouthwatering potential, but I don't to take someone with average production 2 years in a row in round 1. Maybe he is sitting there with pick 49 and we did not select Warren. I say no, he goes no later than pick 42 and likely in round 1 based on concenus rankings.

[Whatever]

(Yesterday, 05:03 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I also said I am no expert and when did being a good TE in the NFL become a bad thing.

For me, there are 1st round TE prospects who need to be awesome if a team is going to spend a 1st round pick and 1st round money on them versus a TE in round 2 or later. TE is not a position picked a lot in the 1st round due to the projected high costs of other positions like QB, CB, OT, WR and Edge rusher. 

You think he has mouthwatering potential, but I don't to take someone with average production 2 years in a row in round 1. Maybe he is sitting there with pick 49 and we did not select Warren. I say no, he goes no later than pick 42 and likely in round 1 based on concenus rankings.

Loveland missed 4 games this year and his production would have been significantly better if not for that.  

Truthfully, if either guy falls into the 2nd, it will likely be Warren.  Blocking is not as valued when you're talking about spending a 1st on a TE.  Beyond that, Warren is 24, where Loveland is 20.  Teams don't like spending 1st's on 24 year olds.  I don't think either falls to us in the 2nd just due to a lack of offensive difference makers in this class.  

[SunsetBengal]

(Yesterday, 05:52 PM)Whatever Wrote: Loveland missed 4 games this year and his production would have been significantly better if not for that.  

Truthfully, if either guy falls into the 2nd, it will likely be Warren.  Blocking is not as valued when you're talking about spending a 1st on a TE.  Beyond that, Warren is 24, where Loveland is 20.  Teams don't like spending 1st's on 24 year olds.  I don't think either falls to us in the 2nd just due to a lack of offensive difference makers in this class.  

I get that you favor the receiving TEs more than the all purpose type, and I understand why, they can be a tremendous asset to an offense that features the TE in their downfield plays. I'm just more partial to the guys that contribute something valuable to the play, even on the downs that they are not a target. For me, Warren with his versatility and toughness won me over.

[Whatever]

(Yesterday, 05:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I get that you favor the receiving TEs more than the all purpose type, and I understand why, they can be a tremendous asset to an offense that features the TE in their downfield plays. I'm just more partial to the guys that contribute something valuable to the play, even on the downs that they are not a target. For me, Warren with his versatility and toughness won me over.

I love Warren's game, truly. Both guys have advantages over the other and it is really a matter of what traits you're looking for as to which is better in a vacuum.  

A four year age gap is huge, though.  Either way, I wouldn't be mad come draft day.  

[Luvnit2]

(Yesterday, 06:39 PM)Whatever Wrote: I love Warren's game, truly. Both guys have advantages over the other and it is really a matter of what traits you're looking for as to which is better in a vacuum.  

A four year age gap is huge, though.  Either way, I wouldn't be mad come draft day.  

I agree the age is a factor. My issue with Loveland is he may have great potential as a receiver and may get better as an inline blocker, but he does not have better results than Warren right now.

In 2024 Loveland played in 10 games, he had 56 receptions, 582 yards and 5 TD's or 5.6 catches for 58 yards and .5 TD's per game on average.

Warren played in 16 games he had 104 receptions, 1233 yards and 8 TD's., on average 6.5 receptions, 77 yards and .5 TD.s. Warren also had 26 rushes for 218 yards (7.8 per rush) and 4 TD's. Loveland had no tangible rushing yards nor rushing TD's

I get Warren is older, but based on production, it is not close, not only is Warren more versatile in passing and run game, but he is also the much better blocker.

I want the proven guy, not a player who may be a beast in round 1.

[SunsetBengal]

(Yesterday, 06:39 PM)Whatever Wrote: I love Warren's game, truly. Both guys have advantages over the other and it is really a matter of what traits you're looking for as to which is better in a vacuum.  

A four year age gap is huge, though.  Either way, I wouldn't be mad come draft day.  

The average career length of an NFL player is 3.3 years, the average career length of a 1st round draft pick is 9.3 years. I can see the age being a factor for QBs, LTs, Ks, Ps, etc. However with TE, at 24 you're getting a player who is already physically developed, ready for the pounding of the NFL, ready to provide instant ROI on that 1st round contract. With the younger guy, you might waste the first two years of the deal while he physically catches up. (See Myles Murphy who was drafted at age 20, compared to Kris Jenkins Jr. and McKinnley Jackson who were both drafted at age 22)

[Whatever]

(6 hours ago)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree the age is a factor. My issue with Loveland is he may have great potential as a receiver and may get better as an inline blocker, but he does not have better results than Warren right now.

In 2024 Loveland played in 10 games, he had 56 receptions, 582 yards and 5 TD's or 5.6 catches for 58 yards and .5 TD's per game on average.

Warren played in 16 games he had 104 receptions, 1233 yards and 8 TD's., on average 6.5 receptions, 77 yards and .5 TD.s. Warren also had 26 rushes for 218 yards (7.8 per rush) and 4 TD's. Loveland had no tangible rushing yards nor rushing TD's

I get Warren is older, but based on production, it is not close, not only is Warren more versatile in passing and run game, but he is also the much better blocker.

I want the proven guy, not a player who may be a beast in round 1.

You have to be careful with production arguments, as Loveland had more receiving yards as a true freshman than Warren had his first three years at Penn State combined.  Warren put forth an incredible year this past year, but he also was a non-factor for the majority of his college career.  

I'm not saying it's wrong to have Warren higher.  But there is certainly a fair case to be made for Loveland to be considered TE1 in this class.  

[Whatever]

(6 hours ago)SunsetBengal Wrote: The average career length of an NFL player is 3.3 years, the average career length of a 1st round draft pick is 9.3 years. I can see the age being a factor for QBs, LTs, Ks, Ps, etc. However with TE, at 24 you're getting a player who is already physically developed, ready for the pounding of the NFL, ready to provide instant ROI on that 1st round contract. With the younger guy, you might waste the first two years of the deal while he physically catches up. (See Myles Murphy who was drafted at age 20, compared to Kris Jenkins Jr. and McKinnley Jackson who were both drafted at age 22)

The NFL is way different than college.  Warren will need to acclimate just as any rookie needs to.

Age is always a negative for a prospect, regardless of position.  For one, you want to get guys into an NFL level strength and conditioning program sooner rather than later to maximize their physical development as they finish maturing.  For another, it's much easier to fix technique issues with a 20 year old vs a 24 year old where those bad habits are heavily ingrained.  

Beyond that, Warren would be 33 when he hits that 9.3 year mark.  In fact, he'll be 29 when his 5th year option is up.  The guy will be hitting his physical decline during his second contract, which is when he needs to make his big money.  This doesn't mean he shouldn't be considered for #17, but it does mean you'll be taking him with the same mindset you would if taking a RB in the 1st, meaning you don't plan on giving him a second contract.  

[Luvnit2]

(5 hours ago)Whatever Wrote: The NFL is way different than college.  Warren will need to acclimate just as any rookie needs to.

Age is always a negative for a prospect, regardless of position.  For one, you want to get guys into an NFL level strength and conditioning program sooner rather than later to maximize their physical development as they finish maturing.  For another, it's much easier to fix technique issues with a 20 year old vs a 24 year old where those bad habits are heavily ingrained.  

Beyond that, Warren would be 33 when he hits that 9.3 year mark.  In fact, he'll be 29 when his 5th year option is up.  The guy will be hitting his physical decline during his second contract, which is when he needs to make his big money.  This doesn't mean he shouldn't be considered for #17, but it does mean you'll be taking him with the same mindset you would if taking a RB in the 1st, meaning you don't plan on giving him a second contract.  

I understand age is a factor in the NFL. But there are many exceptions at all positions. Campbell is still a very good defensive LM as he heads toward 40 was 38 in 2024). Heyward played great at 35 and has a huge one year left on his contract as he turns 36 in May. Bengals thought Whitworth was done and were wrong.

I like the physicality of Warren. It could be a detriment giving and taking punishment, but he looks like a man playing boys in college. I also love his versatility. As far as the future, I care about his first 4 year than can become 5 years if he earns it and avoids major injury.

He would change the physicality of our offensive football team and can be used as an inline blocker, pass catcher at TE or split wide, FB and short yardage RB under center.

What are major technique issues of Tyler Warren? I don't see any major issues with this 24-year-old TE. 

I believe Warren is less risk than Loveland making major contributions in 2025 because of his versatility and NFL readiness now.

[Whatever]

(4 hours ago)Luvnit2 Wrote: I understand age is a factor in the NFL. But there are many exceptions at all positions. Campbell is still a very good defensive LM as he heads toward 40 was 38 in 2024). Heyward played great at 35 and has a huge one year left on his contract as he turns 36 in May. Bengals thought Whitworth was done and were wrong.

I like the physicality of Warren. It could be a detriment giving and taking punishment, but he looks like a man playing boys in college. I also love his versatility. As far as the future, I care about his first 4 year than can become 5 years if he earns it and avoids major injury.

He would change the physicality of our offensive football team and can be used as an inline blocker, pass catcher at TE or split wide, FB and short yardage RB under center.

What are major technique issues of Tyler Warren? I don't see any major issues with this 24-year-old TE. 

I believe Warren is less risk than Loveland making major contributions in 2025 because of his versatility and NFL readiness now.

Warren's common knocks are an incomplete route tree, route running, and poor technique as an in-line blocker.  The need to add play strength also is fairly common.  

Dude, this is an offense that got CJ Uzomah and Hayden Hurst paid...and then those teams suffered buyer's remorse and cut them a year later.  I have zero concerns with either guy being a significant contribute next year, barring injury.

[Luvnit2]

(6 hours ago)Whatever Wrote: You have to be careful with production arguments, as Loveland had more receiving yards as a true freshman than Warren had his first three years at Penn State combined.  Warren put forth an incredible year this past year, but he also was a non-factor for the majority of his college career.  

I'm not saying it's wrong to have Warren higher.  But there is certainly a fair case to be made for Loveland to be considered TE1 in this class.  

Simply very false.

Loveland freshman year - 16 receptions 235 yards and 2 TD's and 0 rushing TD's
Warren 1st 3 years - 49 receptions 606 yards and 11 TD's receiving and 2 rushing TD's

Again, each year Warren got better. Big jump in year 3 and then huge jump in year 4. Warren also did not play in every game year one or year 2. 

Warren has 19 career passing TD's and 6 rushing TD's. He also has a 35-yard passing TD. Total of 26 TD's in his 4-year career where his play was limited in years 1 ad 2.

Loveland had 11 TD's as a full-time starter since his freshman year.