Duke Tobin: Held onto some players too long

[Stonyhands]

Too long…how about investing money into the wrong players. Paying guys who eat up playing time but bring zero value. Running the same stagnant scheme with 2 mediocre linebackers that are soft and lack any instinct whatsoever. Holding onto a DC that piloted one of the worst defenses in the NFL. What did they expect? At best this guy’s defense was mediocre. Did they really think it’d be different than last year?

[WildCat]

(Yesterday, 01:31 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Too long…how about investing money into the wrong players.   Paying guys who eat up playing time but bring zero value.   Running the same stagnant scheme with 2 mediocre linebackers that are soft and lack any instinct whatsoever. Holding onto a DC that piloted one of the worst defenses in the NFL.   What did they expect?  At best this guy’s defense was mediocre.   Did they really think it’d be different than last year?

wilson and pratt thrived on a good front 4 and bates/bell in the backend. they are mediocre but when they were stripped of those key positions it became obvious.

[grampahol]

Coaching was also a problem although that wasn't mentioned in the quote. Great coaching that can light fires under underperforming players can often make a huge difference and it wasn't just Lou. Position coaches have to be able to put players in position to succeed and can't wait until it's desperation time to do it. I feel somewhat hopeful, but the position coaches they swapped out for didn't expect come from high performing teams. Patriots and Saints don't exactly fill me with overwhelming optimism.  Kind of hopeful with Al Golden, but I don't think he's a miracle worker. 

[SunsetBengal]

(Yesterday, 11:27 AM)grampahol Wrote: Coaching was also a problem although that wasn't mentioned in the quote. Great coaching that can light fires under underperforming players can often make a huge difference and it wasn't just Lou. Position coaches have to be able to put players in position to succeed and can't wait until it's desperation time to do it. I feel somewhat hopeful, but the position coaches they swapped out for didn't expect come from high performing teams. Patriots and Saints don't exactly fill me with overwhelming optimism.  Kind of hopeful with Al Golden, but I don't think he's a miracle worker. 

I wouldn't put a lot of stock into their last previous places of employment, as the Saints are in salary cap hell and just cannot afford decent players right now, New England was definitely a team in transition last year led by a 1st year HC who was in over his head and handed a roster with very little meat to it. When you look at the body of work from the two positional coaches in their respective entirety, you'll see that they are quality coaches with strong backgrounds.

[*bengalfan74*]

(Yesterday, 11:39 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I wouldn't put a lot of stock into their last previous places of employment, as the Saints are in salary cap hell and just cannot afford decent players right now, New England was definitely a team in transition last year led by a 1st year HC who was in over his head and handed a roster with very little meat to it. When you look at the body of work from the two positional coaches in their respective entirety, you'll see that they are quality coaches with strong backgrounds.

Yep

IMHO, we had to have a change of direction on defense. Under Lou's system we had four just really bad seasons including the last two. One ok season and one little above average season. Some of that is on the F.O. for sure. But in the same breath Lou's system just wasn't working either. These coaches haven't developed Murphy at all. Stone and the secondary were lost the first 12 games of the year. We had near zero pass rush besides Trey most of the season. And he didn't try and fix it until it was to late.

I believe we also held onto our defensive coaching staff to long.

[SunsetBengal]

(Yesterday, 01:05 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

IMHO, we had to have a change of direction on defense. Under Lou's system we had four just really bad seasons including the last two. One ok season and one little above average season. Some of that is on the F.O. for sure. But in the same breath Lou's system just wasn't working either. These coaches haven't developed Murphy at all. Stone and the secondary were lost the first 12 games of the year. We had near zero pass rush besides Trey most of the season. And he didn't try and fix it until it was to late.

I believe we also held onto our defensive coaching staff to long.

Lou's system had a fighting chance when he had the type of personnel to operate it properly, since then it's been like pounding square pegs into round holes. That's partly on Duke and the management for their "vision" of what roster management should be. I'm not trying to defend Lou by saying that, as I did expect him to have been more hands on and proactive when the defense was struggling so badly the past two seasons. I don't have any ill will toward Lou, but in 5 years in charge of the defense putting out an acceptable product only twice is only a 40% success rate. I wonder how the sports writers who suggested that he would get HC looks are thinking of him now?

[*bengalfan74*]

(Yesterday, 01:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Lou's system had a fighting chance when he had the type of personnel to operate it properly, since then it's been like pounding square pegs into round holes. That's partly on Duke and the management for their "vision" of what roster management should be. I'm not trying to defend Lou by saying that, as I did expect him to have been more hands on and proactive when the defense was struggling so badly the past two seasons. I don't have any ill will toward Lou, but in 5 years in charge of the defense putting out an acceptable product only twice is only a 40% success rate. I wonder how the sports writers who suggested that he would get HC looks are thinking of him now?

I'm the same with Lou. Wish him all the success in the world with the Colts unless we're playing them. But there were several articles post firing talking about how Bengals really messed it up. I don't believe they did.

[SunsetBengal]

(Yesterday, 01:40 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm the same with Lou. Wish him all the success in the world with the Colts unless we're playing them. But there were several articles post firing talking about how Bengals really messed it up. I don't believe they did.

Meh, the media is always going to have the back of a native New Yorker (Staten Island) like Anarumo. 

[lone bengal]

(Yesterday, 01:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Lou's system had a fighting chance when he had the type of personnel to operate it properly, since then it's been like pounding square pegs into round holes. That's partly on Duke and the management for their "vision" of what roster management should be. I'm not trying to defend Lou by saying that, as I did expect him to have been more hands on and proactive when the defense was struggling so badly the past two seasons. I don't have any ill will toward Lou, but in 5 years in charge of the defense putting out an acceptable product only twice is only a 40% success rate. I wonder how the sports writers who suggested that he would get HC looks are thinking of him now?

I thought it was time to move on from Lou but I’m also wondering how many chances does Duke Tobin get before the blames on him ? One DC fired and we’re now on our 4th O-line coach since Paul Alexander was fired. If Taylor misses the playoffs in 2025 and he’s gone at some point it has to be on Duke. Can’t keep firing everyone but the GM. Is Duke capable of drafting a guard this year ? His last hit before Mims was Zeitler in 2012 that’s a 14 year window of misses at OL.

[SunsetBengal]

(Yesterday, 02:06 PM)lone bengal Wrote: I thought it was time to move on from Lou but I’m also wondering how many chances does Duke Tobin get before the blames on him ?  One DC fired and we’re now on our 4th O-line coach since Paul Alexander was fired. If Taylor misses the playoffs in 2025 and he’s gone at some point it has to be on Duke. Can’t keep firing everyone but the GM. Is Duke capable of drafting a guard this year ? His last hit before Mims was Zeitler in 2012 that’s a 14 year window of misses at OL.

The understanding that I get from some of the more insightful members on here is that the Brown/Blackburns view Duke like he's one of the family, basically meaning he's "untouchable".

[lone bengal]

(Yesterday, 02:09 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The understanding that I get from some of the more insightful members on here is that the Brown/Blackburns view Duke like he's one of the family, basically meaning he's "untouchable".

Yeah was getting some Marvin Lewis vibes tenure wise like he’s already been here 20 years. I’m not even blaming him for Bates cause you can make an argument that the Browns control the money and limit what he can do. The key for us winning the next few years is gonna have to be done through the draft if we keep Chase , Burrow and Higgins together. You watch the Philly and KC Super Bowl and see how much talent was home grown for both teams and then look at what we’ve produced lately. Need young guys playing well on cheap rookie deals !