Does Marvin teach it?

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2016, 12:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You mean like the Browns and Raiders firing their coaches every year and still losing?

I know you are nopt talking about the Bengals because they have had everything from 4-12 to 12-4 under Marvin.

I can't say I know any Raiders fans, but I could ask people I know who are Browns fans if they sit around and pine for an 0-7 playoff record under one HC. I wouldn't honestly be surprised if Raiders fans refused to trade Carr and Del Rio for what we have (had?).

[cincyfan429]

To many Bengal fans are fine with a winning season, and think if Lewis gets fired the sky will fall. I just dont think he could lead them to the SB so get a coach who can because the window on this team is closing.

[fredtoast]

(01-11-2016, 02:07 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I can't say I know any Raiders fans, but I could ask people I know who are Browns fans if they sit around and pine for an 0-7 playoff record under one HC. 

Would you trade what the Bengals achieved under Marvin for what the Browns have done over the last 13 years?


Seriously, folks, other than the compulsive whiners on this board i don't think I could find another football fan anywhere in the country who would say that the Browns have it better because they won a playoff game 21 years ago.  

[fredtoast]

(01-11-2016, 02:12 AM)cincyfan429 Wrote: To many Bengal fans are fine with a winning season, and think if Lewis gets fired the sky will fall. I just dont think he could lead them to the SB so get a coach who can because the window on this team is closing.

If there was coach who I knew could take us to the super Bowl i would be all for replacing Marvin.

The fact is that most teams that fire their coach get worse.   It is worth taking that chance when the team is losing, but when the team is making the playoffs every year it is a much bigger risk to replace a proven winning coach with an unproven one.

[cincyfan429]

No your missing the key point we have far too much talent to be out in the first round. Lewis is losing with a very good club. The Browns dont have the talent we do right now or that Lewis has had for the last 5 years.

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2016, 02:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Would you trade what the Bengals achieved under Marvin for what the Browns have done over the last 13 years?


Seriously, folks, other than the compulsive whiners on this board i don't think I could find another football fan anywhere in the country who would say that the Browns have it better because they won a playoff game 21 years ago.  

Of course I wouldn't trade it for the Browns.  Look, the Browns are irrationally bad.  So bad for so long that no modern-day NFL franchise can compare to their awfulness.  Let's just drop the Browns from any argument, because they are so amazingly bad that it does a disservice to the Bengals, and almost every other NFL franchise, to even compare them.

The Browns are PROOF that:

You can't build through the draft
You can't build through free-agency
Drafing a QB doesn't work
Getting a FA QB doesn't work
Hiring a new HC doesn't work
Keeping the old HC doesn't work
Hiring a HC with no experience doesn't work
Hiring a HC with experience doesn't work


NOTHING works in Cleveland.  Enough with the Browns.  Being better than the Browns means nothing.  We may as well give Andy Dalton a pass because he's better than Dan LeFevour and the Hamilton Tiger Cats.  If you can't make a point without using the Browns as evidence of something "bad" then you are no longer making a point.

THE BROWNS DON'T COUNT!!!!

I'm not even saying we should fire Marvin; I'm just saying that comparing any NFL team to the Browns is pretty much a cop out because the Browns are almost certainly much worse at everything than every other franchise. Right now all 31 other NFL teams are better, or better off than the Browns. It's a non-argument.

[fredtoast]

(01-11-2016, 02:17 AM)cincyfan429 Wrote: No your missing the key point we have far too much talent to be out in the first round. Lewis is losing with a very good club. The Browns dont have the talent we do right now or that Lewis has had for the last 5 years.

This season we were missing our starting QB.  Last season we were missing our entire receiving corps.  When we lost to the Texans they had the better team.  The home loss to the Chargers was the biggest disaster.  There was no excuse for losing that one.

If you look at the top 100 players as selected by the other players it is clear that we do not have a lot of great players.  this year was by far the most talen ted team Marvin ha shad, and if Andy had been healthy i would have betted on them making it to the Super Bowl.

And you can't say injuries don';t matter whenh even thee Patriots have been turned into a 2-4 team over the last six weeks because of injuries.

[cincyfan429]

Ok then lets make it simple how many more years of winning seasons and losing in the first round of the playoffs do you give Lewis. Injuries are part of the game but so is coaching. Look at the job Reid is doing in KC Lewis is not capable of such work.

[fredtoast]

(01-11-2016, 02:22 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Of course I wouldn't trade it for the Browns.  Look, the Browns are irrationally bad.  So bad for so long that no modern-day NFL franchise can compare to their awfulness.  Let's just drop the Browns from any argument, because they are so amazingly bad that it does a disservice to the Bengals, and almost every other NFL franchise, to even compare them.

The Browns are PROOF that:

You can't build through the draft
You can't build through free-agency
Drafing a QB doesn't work
Getting a FA QB doesn't work
Hiring a new HC doesn't work
Keeping the old HC doesn't work
Hiring a HC with no experience doesn't work
Hiring a HC with experience doesn't work


NOTHING works in Cleveland.  Enough with the Browns.  Being better than the Browns means nothing.  We may as well give Andy Dalton a pass because he's better than Dan LeFevour and the Hamilton Tiger Cats.  If you can't make a point without using the Browns as evidence of something "bad" then you are no longer making a point.

THE BROWNS DON'T COUNT!!!!

Lions
Rams
Titans
Jags
Bills
Dolphins
Bucs
Raiders
Falcons
Redskins
Vikings
Jets
Giants 
Bears
Falcons
Cowboys
Chargers

How many oif those teams have been better than the Bengals over the last 5 years?

[fredtoast]

(01-11-2016, 02:28 AM)cincyfan429 Wrote: Ok then lets make it simple how many more years of winning seasons and losing in the first round of the playoffs do you give Lewis. Injuries are part of the game but so is coaching. Look at the job Reid is doing in KC  Lewis is not capable of such work.

Reid just won his first playoff game in seven years.

I'd take Reid over Lewis if he was available, but he is not.  However wouldn't you want a head coach fired before he went 7 years without a playoff win?

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2016, 02:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lions
Rams
Titans
Jags
Bills
Dolphins
Bucs
Raiders
Falcons
Redskins
Vikings
Jets
Giants 
Bears
Falcons
Cowboys
Chargers

How many oif those teams have been better than the Bengals over the last 5 years?

There is more to the NFL, Mike Brown, and Marvin Lewis than the last 5 years.  But hey, if you want to paint 6 humiliating playoff losses in 7 years as some sort of trashbin dynasty, all the power to you.  I can't disagree, but acting like we are an enviable team for this stretch (with the hindsight of losing 5 in a row) is tantamount to admitting (in my mind) that we are simply a 2nd-tier organization with lowered expectations compared to other franchises.

We have an organizational model that makes winning a playoff game comparable to many other franchises winning the Super Bowl, or the Conference Championship.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  Maybe it's just a curse.  Mike Brown probably stiffed a gypsy back in the early 50's.

[cincyfan429]

He was fired by Philly for not winning and then hired in 2013 by KC and has a playoff win. KC would ship him out of town by 2025 ( 12 yrs ) if he had no playoff wins. Tell me you agree please

[fredtoast]

(01-11-2016, 02:37 AM)Nately120 Wrote: There is more to the NFL, Mike Brown, and Marvin Lewis than the last 5 years.  But hey, if you want to paint 6 humiliating playoff losses in 7 years as some sort of trashbin dynasty, all the power to you.  I can't disagree, but acting like we are an enviable team for this stretch (with the hindsight of losing 5 in a row) is tantamount to admitting (in my mind) that we are simply a 2nd-tier organization with lowered expectations compared to other franchises.

We have an organizational model that makes winning a playoff game comparable to many other franchises winning the Super Bowl, or the Conference Championship.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  Maybe it's just a curse.  Mike Brown probably stiffed a gypsy back in the early 50's.

So much logical fail I don't know where to start.

Saying that we are better than some other teams in no way means we have lowered expectations.  You have to have a brick for a brain to claim that there is no difference between a playoff team and a 4-12 team.  But saying that a playoff team is better than a 4-12 team does not mean we have lower expectations.  Why can't you grasp the simple concept that it is possible to both say we are better than a 4-12 team AND not as good as a Super Bowl team.  Is your brain so limited that it can not accept both of those concepts at the same time?

And not one single person here or in the Bengals organization has ever said that winning a playoff game for us is the same as winning a Super Bowl for other teams.  What do you even mean by that?  It is nothing but gibberish.

this is nothing but gibberish.

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2016, 02:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So much logical fail I don't know where to start.

Saying that we are better than some other teams in no way means we have lowered expectations.  You have to have a brick for a brain to claim that there is no difference between a playoff team and a 4-12 team.  But saying that a playoff team is better than a 4-12 team does not mean we have lower expectations.  Why can't you grasp the simple concept that it is possible to both say we are better than a 4-12 team AND not as good as a Super Bowl team.  Is your brain so limited that it can not accept both of those concepts at the same time?

And not one single person here or in the Bengals organization has ever said that winning a playoff game for us is the same as winning a Super Bowl for other teams.  What do you even mean by that?  It is nothing but gibberish.

this is nothing but gibberish.

You don't need to resort to insults.  You and I are obviously discussing different things.  You showed a list of franchises, and you are talking about comparing our TEAM to other TEAMS, and I'm thinking more about the long-term organization.  I happen to see Marvin, the playoff losses, the Palmer debacle, the Chad and TO show, having a HC who is a GM we force to coach, etc. all as symptoms of the Mike Brown era.

When I look at a game like last night's game I happen to see recurring themes of the past 25 years.  You see, when the owner and GM are the same for a quarter of a century, and the HC is the same for 13 years, the past DOES matter...because the past is the present and future.  We have a talented roster, but I see 25-year old factors as the one two punch that sets up the haymaker that are the 13-year old factors.

That's what I see.  I'm a big ol' dope though.  Personally, I feel like you are right in seeing the past 5 years as a reboot of sorts.  


EDIT:  I wanetd to address this:

And not one single person here or in the Bengals organization has ever said that winning a playoff game for us is the same as winning a Super Bowl for other teams.  What do you even mean by that?  It is nothing but gibberish.


This is actually an assertion of my own.  It seems like we simply can't break through the first round of the playoffs, and we see teams go into the playoffs once every few years at 9-7 who win the Super Bowl while we win 10-12 games on a yearly basis and then fail as soon as we get in there.  The Super Bowl in the past 5 years has been played, and won by teams that don't need 7+ cracks at the playoffs to make progress.  Sure it beats going 4-12, but it just shows how the Bengals are confusingly different.

Basically, I'm saying that with Mike Brown as our owner and GM, and guy who makes our GM also be our HC, we have created an organization that needs as much luck and talent to win a single playoff game as other teams may need to win the whole damn thing.

[Sabretooth]

(01-10-2016, 11:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I find it stupid is all.

And the name is Fred Toast.  Any of you guys call me Francis and I'll kill you.  

Thanks Fred Toast, I really needed to laugh

[Sabretooth]

(01-11-2016, 02:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If there was coach who I knew could take us to the super Bowl i would be all for replacing Marvin.

The fact is that most teams that fire their coach get worse.   It is worth taking that chance when the team is losing, but when the team is making the playoffs every year it is a much bigger risk to replace a proven winning coach with an unproven one.

Tom Coughlin is available

[WildCat]

(01-11-2016, 02:02 AM)cincyfan429 Wrote: Look in sports its the coach who gets fired not the players. Lewis has too much talent on that team to get a pass for losing another playoff game. I have been a Bengal fan my whole life and know back in those 2-14 or 4-12 years there was not much talent on those teams. History shows that because the Bengals have only 1 player in the HOF, granted Kenny Anderson should also be in there. So now he has a talented team and still loses after 12 yrs no playoff wins. Lewis would be fired by any other team with that track record.

wasn't good enough for philly. hell, they fired andy reid AFTER he made 2 NFC champ appearences and also made a super bowl. got shit canned. chip kelly won 20 games or so for them .... shit canned. marv hasn't even won a playoff game. same shit different year really. the insanity just won't stop.

[WildCat]

(01-11-2016, 02:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Reid just won his first playoff game in seven years.

I'd take Reid over Lewis if he was available, but he is not.  However wouldn't you want a head coach fired before he went 7 years without a playoff win?

how many chances should marvin get before he is fired? what exactly are you arguing? you just argue for the sake of argument. it gets tiring fred.

[reuben.ahmed]

The sad part is with all of our focus on winning just 1 playoff game, we're going to win 1 playoff game and be done - and the narrative will then be the bengals can't get to the AFC championship game.

Or the superbowl.

or when they win, "about time".

The team is effing stacked, Dalton has to stay healthy and they have to take control of the team. Hill has to have zero fumbles next year and up his YPC to 4 if he wants to stay on the team further. They should say the first lost fumble you're cut, if you last all of next year then you stay. The pitch fumble earlier in the year that got him benched, you thought that would have sent a message.

I wish all of their contracts were incentive based and year to year. It's not about a family to feed, you're making millions, one yea rand you're good for life if you know how to manage money. Many people are motivated by incentives, financial or otherwise - and some both. If Hill isn't motivated by his embarassment, he may be motivated by money. Nobody really knows, if his salary is cut in half and it says he gets the other half if he doesn't fumble and goes for 4 YPC..you never know.

[fredtoast]

(01-11-2016, 06:03 AM)WildCat Wrote: wasn't good enough for philly. hell, they fired andy reid AFTER he made 2 NFC champ appearences and also made a super bowl. got shit canned. chip kelly won 20 games or so for them .... shit canned. marv hasn't even won a playoff game. same shit different year really. the insanity just won't stop.

So you agree that Eagles should have kept Riad instaed of going with the knee jerk reaction and firing him despite the fact he was one of the best coaches in the league?

That is the point I am trying to make.