Tiki Barber on how to fix fumbling

[*wildcats forever*]

In rehashing Jeremy Hill's untimely fumbles (aren't they all untimely though?), Tiki Barber's fumbling problem came to mind. In one stretch, he averaged almost 9 per season over four years, I remembered. So I googled him, and came up with this article. Interesting read, and I'm thinking it's likely the Bengals staff come up with something similar for Hill to work on. His talent and desire is worth the effort.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/bob-glauber/tiki-barber-knows-how-to-fix-david-wilson-s-fumble-problems-1.6053702

[*jason*]

I've been thinking the same thing.  I remember he was carrying the ball way up by his chest after he worked on his ball security.  Hill needs to look into that....  Or do something.

[*Nately120*]

Part of me fears they tried to fix his ball security after the 2014 season and it didn't work...yet?

[*wildcats forever*]

(01-20-2016, 05:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Part of me fears they tried to fix his ball security after the 2014 season and it didn't work...yet?

Hopefully, he wasn't just being yelled at with "Stop fumbling!"  That won't help at all.  He had 4 in '14, and 4 in '15, so he wasn't anywhere near what Barber was coughing up, so maybe there wasn't that much being said or done about it. With how the last one went down, maybe Hill is already all over getting this kind of thing behind him on his own. I do hope the issue doesn't stay in his head.

[Shake n Blake]

3 fumbles isn't an outrageous number for a season. Law Firm had 3 in 2012. Benson had 7 in '10 and 5 in '11. Rudi had at least 3 fumbles in 3 of his 5 seasons as starter. Dillon had at least 3 in 5 different seasons.

I know people are emotional about the one he had in the playoff game, but Hill didn't really do anything wrong there. He had the ball tucked hard against his body. Shazier had all the leverage. Hill was falling forward while Shazier was standing up. It was just an unfortunate play.

My problem with Hill is how he ran last year. 3.6 ypc is unacceptable. He was tentative with the ball. As far as fumbles go, I think the problem has been exaggerated to an extent.

[*Nately120*]

(01-20-2016, 06:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 3 fumbles isn't an outrageous number for a season. Law Firm had 3 in 2012. Benson had 7 in '10 and 5 in '11. Rudi had at least 3 fumbles in 3 of his 5 seasons as starter. Dillon had at least 3 in 5 different seasons.

I know people are emotional about the one he had in the playoff game, but Hill didn't really do anything wrong there. He had the ball tucked hard against his body. Shazier had all the leverage. Hill was falling forward while Shazier was standing up. It was just an unfortunate play.

My problem with Hill is how he ran last year. 3.6 ypc is unacceptable. He was tentative with the ball. As far as fumbles go, I think the problem has been exaggerated to an extent.

Yep...all this up here.

[*jason*]

(01-20-2016, 06:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 3 fumbles isn't an outrageous number for a season. Law Firm had 3 in 2012. Benson had 7 in '10 and 5 in '11. Rudi had at least 3 fumbles in 3 of his 5 seasons as starter. Dillon had at least 3 in 5 different seasons.

I know people are emotional about the one he had in the playoff game, but Hill didn't really do anything wrong there. He had the ball tucked hard against his body. Shazier had all the leverage. Hill was falling forward while Shazier was standing up. It was just an unfortunate play.

My problem with Hill is how he ran last year. 3.6 ypc is unacceptable. He was tentative with the ball. As far as fumbles go, I think the problem has been exaggerated to an extent.

How many carries did he have this season compared to those guys in the seasons that you mentioned?  The guys you mentioned were workhorses when they were here.

[guyofthetiger]

Defense constantly tries to strip the ball out of the arms of runners. I agree there may be a technique that reduces the number of fumbles. However, honestly they are always part of the game. Your team just needs to prevent the other team from scoring after a turnover.

[magikod]

In this particular situation against the Steelers, Hill should have not been fighting for extra yards. Should have just went down, oh well hopefully he learned from his mistake?

...and I had really high hopes for Jeremy Hill after last season.

[*wildcats forever*]

(01-20-2016, 06:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 3 fumbles isn't an outrageous number for a season. Law Firm had 3 in 2012. Benson had 7 in '10 and 5 in '11. Rudi had at least 3 fumbles in 3 of his 5 seasons as starter. Dillon had at least 3 in 5 different seasons.

I know people are emotional about the one he had in the playoff game, but Hill didn't really do anything wrong there. He had the ball tucked hard against his body. Shazier had all the leverage. Hill was falling forward while Shazier was standing up. It was just an unfortunate play.

My problem with Hill is how he ran last year. 3.6 ypc is unacceptable. He was tentative with the ball. As far as fumbles go, I think the problem has been exaggerated to an extent.

Recently I read that Hill's percentage of fumbles per carry is at, or near, the top in the league. 4 fumbles in app. 220 carries might be enough to have concerns. My main thought on all of this is what he could do to keep this from becoming a confidence/mental thing, which will worsen the situation for him. I love this guys talent, and would hate to see it diminished by his last "over-blown" fumble. He's young, and this type of thing has the potential of affecting him negatively if he isn't getting the kind of positive reinforcement he could use. 

As for his tentative running, I am not laying all of that at his feet. Maybe scheme/Oline play had it's impact on the down numbers too, not that he can't improve on his end. 

[Shake n Blake]

(01-20-2016, 06:13 PM)jason Wrote: How many carries did he have this season compared to those guys in the seasons that you mentioned?  The guys you mentioned were workhorses when they were here.

2015 Hill: 238 touches, 3 fumbles - 1 fumble per every 79.3 touches

2012 BJGE: 300 touches, 3 fumbles - 1 fumble per 100 touches
2011 CedBen: 288 touches, 5 fumbles - 1 fumble per 57.6 touches
2010 CedBen: 349 touches, 7 fumbles - 1 fumble per 49.9 touches
2007 Rudi: 183 touches, 3 fumbles - 1 fumble per 61.0 touches
2006 Rudi: 364 touches, 6 fumbles - 1 fumble per 60.7 touches
2004: Rudi: 376 touches, 4 fumbles - 1 fumble per 94 touches
2004 Dillon: 360 touches, 5 fumbles - 1 fumble per 72.0 touches
2002 Dillon: 357 touches, 5 fumbles - 1 fumble per 71.4 touches
2001 Dillon: 374 touches, 5 touches - 1 fumble per 74.8 touches
2000 Dillon: 333 touches, 4 fumbles - 1 fumble per 83.3 touches

These are the only seasons I referenced with fumble per touch ratios included. All of the highlighted seasons were worse than Hill's as far as fumbling is concerned.

[*wildcats forever*]

(01-20-2016, 07:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2015 Hill: 238 touches, 3 fumbles - 1 fumble per every 79.3 touches

2012 BJGE: 300 touches, 3 fumbles - 1 fumble per 100 touches
2011 CedBen: 288 touches, 5 fumbles - 1 fumble per 57.6 touches
2010 CedBen: 349 touches, 7 fumbles - 1 fumble per 49.9 touches
2007 Rudi: 183 touches, 3 fumbles - 1 fumble per 61.0 touches
2006 Rudi: 364 touches, 6 fumbles - 1 fumble per 60.7 touches
2004: Rudi: 376 touches, 4 fumbles - 1 fumble per 94 touches
2004 Dillon: 360 touches, 5 fumbles - 1 fumble per 72.0 touches
2002 Dillon: 357 touches, 5 fumbles - 1 fumble per 71.4 touches
2001 Dillon: 374 touches, 5 touches - 1 fumble per 74.8 touches
2000 Dillon: 333 touches, 4 fumbles - 1 fumble per 83.3 touches

These are the only seasons I referenced with fumble per touch ratios included. All of the highlighted seasons were worse than Hill's as far as fumbling is concerned.

This is what I based my comments on, which shows 4 fumbles for '15 and 4 for '14., plus comparisons with RB's in the league

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/1/18/10780184/Could-Jeremy-Hill-be-fumbling-away-his-place-in-nfl

[fredtoast]

(01-20-2016, 07:51 PM)rob Wrote: my problem is the way the utilize hill/gio. it is horrid. hard to watch. a good friend of mine is a browns fan (from Cleveland) and he said the same thing, during the pitt playoff game. He said it is absolutely terrible the way we utilize those 2. Hill should have 15+ carries a game. he is THAT kind of back. Why is gio being used to run right up the middle?? makes no sense, that is HILLS AREA TO RUN. It almost makes me think we are better off without gio.

Gio can run fine between the tackles.  He just can't do it 15-20 times a game.

BTW did you and your friend happen to see Hill running between the tackles 

Also I don't want the opposing defense to know exactly what we are going to do based on which back is in the game.

[*Nately120*]

(01-20-2016, 07:51 PM)rob Wrote: It almost makes me think we are better off without gio.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-20-2016, 07:31 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: This is what I based my comments on, which shows 4 fumbles for '15 and 4 for '14., plus comparisons with RB's in the league

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/1/18/10780184/Could-Jeremy-Hill-be-fumbling-away-his-place-in-nfl

Cincy Jungle isn't a professional site. It's basicially a fan blog. Those numbers are all screwed up.

1. Jeremy Hill had 5 fumbles in 2014, not 4.

2. They counted Hill's playoff game this season (to include his fumble) but left out his '14 playoff game (that didn't have a fumble). Obviously they did this to make the numbers look worse. If you're going to include this playoff game, it would only be fair to also include last year's.


3. This statement is false: "In 2015, Hill had four fumbles again, and again found himself in the top three in the NFL as far as fumbles go."


First off, it's unfair to include the playoff game when many of these players didn't play in the post season.  An accurate statement would be this: During the 2015 regular season, Hill was tied for 8th most fumbles among RBs. He was tied with 11 other RBs. The following RB's had at least 3 fumble in 2015:


Adrian Peterson- 6
Melvin Gordon- 5
Frank Gore- 4
James Starks- 4
Doug Martin- 4
Ameer Abdullah- 4
Matt Jones- 4 
DeAngelo Williams- 3
Darren McFadden- 3
Jonathan Stewart- 3
Ryan Matthews- 3
Chris Ivory- 3
Eddie Lacy- 3
Latavius Murray- 3
Dennard Robinson- 3
Tre Mason- 3
Todd Gurley - 3
Tevin Coleman- 3


So to sum this up, 19 RBs had as many or more fumbles as Jeremy Hill. The highlighted RBs had fewer touches than Hill (9 total). Many, such as Gurley and DWill were close to Jeremy in touches. So for Cincy Jungle to claim Hill is close to fumbling his way out of the league is asinine. 

[fredtoast]

(01-20-2016, 08:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So to sum this up, 19 RBs had as many or more fumbles as Jeremy Hill. The highlighted RBs had fewer touches than Hill (9 total). Many, such as Gurley and DWill were close to Jeremy in touches. So for Cincy Jungle to claim Hill is close to fumbling his way out of the league is asinine. 

This.  

Hill needs to work on his ball security.  I think everyone agrees with that.  But he is not the "fumbling machine" that some people try to claim.

I am more worried about his 3.6 avg than his 3 fumbles, but I don't think he has lost any of the skills that made him so great in 2014.

[guyofthetiger]

Hill needs many more touches in a game. Other teams give the ball to their running back and eventually the D gets worn out. Also, the back gets better as he carries more. I would like to see Hill get 20+ carries a game in 2016.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-20-2016, 06:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 3 fumbles isn't an outrageous number for a season. Law Firm had 3 in 2012. Benson had 7 in '10 and 5 in '11. Rudi had at least 3 fumbles in 3 of his 5 seasons as starter. Dillon had at least 3 in 5 different seasons.

I know people are emotional about the one he had in the playoff game, but Hill didn't really do anything wrong there. He had the ball tucked hard against his body. Shazier had all the leverage. Hill was falling forward while Shazier was standing up. It was just an unfortunate play.

My problem with Hill is how he ran last year. 3.6 ypc is unacceptable. He was tentative with the ball. As far as fumbles go, I think the problem has been exaggerated to an extent.

You got me to go along with most of it, except....

Yes, he did do something wrong there. It's called you're running out the clock to win a game, PUT TWO F'ING HANDS ON THE BALL. I watched the Broncos game. Toussiant or however you spell it gets the ball punched out, Broncos get it, and go on a short drive to get a TD. Did you notice what happened when the Broncos players got the ball? They put two freaking hands on it.

One job in that situation, protect the ball. If you're not using two hands the entire time, you're most certainly doing something wrong there.

Not saying he's fumbling his way out of the league. Great RBs can get away with some fumbling, just look at Adrian Peterson. You can't be fumbling AND running for 3.6 YPC though.


- - - -- - - - - -
guyofthetiger
Hill needs many more touches in a game. Other teams give the ball to their running back and eventually the D gets worn out. Also, the back gets better as he carries more. I would like to see Hill get 20+ carries a game in 2016.


None of those teams giving their RB the ball 20+ times to wear out a D has their RB going for so few yards. If you gave Hill 20+ carries a game and he runs like he did in 2015, your offense will suck. Meanwhile you're taking the ball out of Dalton who was in the MVP conversation before he got hurt, just so a RB can reach some magical number of carries.

The way Hill was running in a lot of games in 2015, 21 carries is the same as saying 7 straight 1-2-3-and punt possessions.

Not to mention, Hill actually had 1 more carry in 2015 than he did in 2014, yet his YPC dropped 1.5. Giving a horribly struggling RB more chances to bog down your offense isn't the answer unless you think every game his 20th carry will be for like an 80 yard TD to actually bring his AVG up to a respectable number.

[*Nately120*]

(01-20-2016, 10:42 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: Hill needs many more touches in a game. Other teams give the ball to their running back and eventually the D gets worn out. Also, the back gets better as he carries more. I would like to see Hill get 20+ carries a game in 2016.

Jeremy Hill is part of a team, and if he's not getting it done we can't waste offensive chances forcing an aspect of our team that isn't working.  The Bengals ran an average of 63.1 plays per game in 2015, which means 20+ carries for Hill makes him solely responsible for 32% or more of our total plays per game.  Call me a cynic, but I have a feeling if we forced more carries on Jeremy Hill this year we wouldn't have won 12 games.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/plays-per-game


I realize one has to hit his way out of a slump, but this line of thinking just eludes me.  I've never heard anyone claim a WR who can't stop dropping balls just needs more passes thrown his way, or a QB who throws 3 INTs in the first half just really needs to air it out.  There just aren't enough plays per game nor games per season in the NFL to have the luxury of forcing someone out of a slump.  Now if the NFL had a minor league system where Jeremy Hill could run over some practice squad guys for a few weeks and then get "called up" maybe we'd have something.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-20-2016, 09:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.  

Hill needs to work on his ball security.  I think everyone agrees with that.  But he is not the "fumbling machine" that some people try to claim.

I am more worried about his 3.6 avg than his 3 fumbles, but I don't think he has lost any of the skills that made him so great in 2014.

Exactly where I'm at. Ball security is a minor concern. Production is a major concern. Fwiw, talent-wise I think he falls somewhere between the '14 and '15 seasons.

As in I don't think he's quite as good as we thought after '14, but he's definitely better than he showed in '15.

(01-21-2016, 12:19 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You got me to go along with most of it, except....

Yes, he did do something wrong there. It's called you're running out the clock to win a game, PUT TWO F'ING HANDS ON THE BALL. I watched the Broncos game. Toussiant or however you spell it gets the ball punched out, Broncos get it, and go on a short drive to get a TD. Did you notice what happened when the Broncos players got the ball? They put two freaking hands on it.

One job in that situation, protect the ball. If you're not using two hands the entire time, you're most certainly doing something wrong there.

Fair enough. If it were a typical carry he did nothing wrong, but he could've had some situational awareness there. Don't fight for extra yards, cover with both hands, and go down on contact. I'm just saying...it's not like he was haphazardly carrying the ball around like a loaf of bread. But sure, he could've done more to protect the ball.