Breaking down the Bengals cap situation

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2016, 12:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  but I would like to see the numbers

I think that is pretty much everyone's wish.  The Bengals trot out these numbers annually through Hobson.  But, we never see the numbers at the end of the year.  Basically, we're all just making educated guesses.  The rookie pool for example.  It's $7M subtracted from the $36M leaves us only $29M.  That's not true.  Every rookie that makes the team his cap space hit is mitigated by a veteran's salary falling off the books.  $29M - $5M injury pool = $24M.  Bullshit.

Let's assume Hobson's annual salary cap report is true.  Is the Bengals front office unaware at the fan's frustration or they don't care?  Because if what Hobson, and now Jim, reports is true and they are aware of our frustration then just be totally transparent with the fans.  Give an end of year salary cap summary.  Show how each one of those pools were spent to come up with the final cap number.  (Showing their accounting for the salary cap is different than their financial records which I understand why they don't want to release those and I'm not asking for those.)  Basically, I want the front office to prove to me they are telling the truth.  Because right now it seems like they are blowing the same smoke up my ass they do every year.  

The Bengals and the league keep track of it.  The Bengals could attach a PDF file on their website for those interested to look at because I'm much more likely to believe their speculation with some objective data to analyze.  Some fans aren't interested, but around here we're just the type of crazy ***** who are interested and want to know.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2016, 01:00 PM)jj22 Wrote: Fair enough. I honestly don't know either.

That's the point.  We're like mushrooms.  Kept in the dark and fed horseshit.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-04-2016, 01:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I think that is pretty much everyone's wish.  The Bengals trot out these numbers annually through Hobson.  But, we never see the numbers at the end of the year.  Basically, we're all just making educated guesses.  The rookie pool for example.  It's $7M subtracted from the $36M leaves us only $29M.  That's not true.  Every rookie that makes the team his cap space hit is mitigated by a veteran's salary falling off the books.  $29M - $5M injury pool = $24M.  Bullshit.

Let's assume Hobson's annual salary cap report is true.  Is the Bengals front office unaware at the fan's frustration or they don't care?  Because if what Hobson, and now Jim, reports is true and they are aware of our frustration then just be totally transparent with the fans.  Give an end of year salary cap summary.  Show how each one of those pools were spent to come up with the final cap number.  (Showing their accounting for the salary cap is different than their financial records which I understand why they don't want to release those and I'm not asking for those.)  Basically, I want the front office to prove to me they are telling the truth.  Because right now it seems like they are blowing the same smoke up my ass they do every year.  

The Bengals and the league keep track of it.  The Bengals could attach a PDF file on their website for those interested to look at because I'm much more likely to believe their speculation with some objective data to analyze.  Some fans aren't interested, but around here we're just the type of crazy ***** who are interested and want to know.

From everything I have ever read, the rest of the league hates the fact that the Packers are publicly owned and have to file annual reports.  These reports give a look into what the average team takes in, their profit, etc.  The NFL would like to keep it all private, so no way does another team start making these figures public.  It would be nice though!

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2016, 11:32 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Not exactly. Hall's $9M contract from last year is gone and is already part of that $36M, as are the contracts of all current free agents. However, if a draft pick replaces a player currently under contract, say like a player named Margus Hunt (cough, cough), then Hunt's contract would go away, but any dead money in that contract would still count against the cap. For Hunt I believe the dead money in the deal if he were cut this year would be $262K. If we sign a new Kicker, then all of Nugent's money would return to the cap since there is no dead money in it.

Thank you.  That is the salary cap accounting details which the Bengals never put out with the smoke and mirrors.

Let's say the Bengals draft a 1st round DT and release Peko.  Peko's cap savings would be roughly $3.5M +/-.  Right?  D.J. Humphrey was drafted 24th last year with rookie cap hit of $1.6M.

That's roughly, a ball park $2M cap savings (just to make the math easy for me.)  That cap savings will damn near cover the rest of your rookie pool, correct?  Please let me know if I'm wrong.  Thanks.

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2016, 01:20 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That's the point.  We're like mushrooms.  Kept in the dark and fed horseshit.

Actually the info is out there

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Are-the-bengals-really-that-cheap


I am still looking for another more comprehensive source, but over the last three years the Bengals have not been close to the bottom in actual money spent.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2016, 01:31 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: From everything I have ever read, the rest of the league hates the fact that the Packers are publicly owned and have to file annual reports.  These reports give a look into what the average team takes in, their profit, etc.  The NFL would like to keep it all private, so no way does another team start making these figures public.  It would be nice though!

I'm with you.  I understand why Jerry Jones and Mike Brown don't want to release their profit/loss financial records.

The salary cap is different.  It is the same for all teams.  The teams are required to spend it.  If they don't meet the minimum cash payouts they have to give the shortfall to the NFLPA to give out to the players.  The teams know roughly how much other teams have in salary cap space so it isn't a competitive advantage to treat it like it is top secret information.  As far as the Bengals are concerned, I think from a PR perspective it would only be a good thing to keep their fans more informed so we understand they are telling the truth, if in fact they are telling us the truth.  I've followed this team closely enough for many, many years and I don't believe Hobson's speculation.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2016, 01:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually the info is out there

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Are-the-bengals-really-that-cheap


I am still looking for another more comprehensive source, but over the last three years the Bengals have not been close to the bottom in actual money spent.

Fred, I'm not saying they are cheap.  I'm saying I want to see the numbers just like you.  I'm agreeing with you, Fred.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-04-2016, 01:58 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm with you.  I understand why Jerry Jones and Mike Brown don't want to release their profit/loss financial records.

The salary cap is different.  It is the same for all teams.  The teams are required to spend it.  If they don't meet the minimum cash payouts they have to give the shortfall to the NFLPA to give out to the players.  The teams know roughly how much other teams have in salary cap space so it isn't a competitive advantage to treat it like it is top secret information.  As far as the Bengals are concerned, I think from a PR perspective it would only be a good thing to keep their fans more informed so we understand they are telling the truth, if in fact they are telling us the truth.  I've followed this team closely enough for many, many years and I don't believe Hobson's speculation.

I agree with you.  Trust me, I don't read or believe what Hobson puts out either.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2016, 02:01 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I agree with you.  Trust me, I don't read or believe what Hobson puts out either.

Didn't the NFL give up their tax exempt status this year to keep more of their financial info private?  Like Goodell's salary?

And LOL at the NFL being tax exempt while and you and I aren't.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-04-2016, 02:11 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Didn't the NFL give up their tax exempt status this year to keep more of their financial info private?  Like Goodell's salary?

And LOL at the NFL being tax exempt while and you and I aren't.

It was the NFL Front Office that was tax exempt and gave it up.

The actual NFL teams were and are not, but the entity that is the NFL was, if that makes sense.

Still a total farce either way.

[jowczarski]

Wow. Thanks all. I picked over some of these and will answer as best I can below.


1st question- Why are the Bengals so reluctant to cut players when the rest of the league isn't ? I mean they could save close to 10 million dollars if they cut Rey Malaga, Domata peko, AJ Hawk, and Mike Nugent.

Fair point. One, those are 4 positions that would need to replaced. Can you get the same production at all those spots (three starters) with less money? Because that’s what would need to happen to make it worthwhile. It’s easy to just say “yes” but in reality, it’s not that easy. So it’s not just they get a free $10 million…

2nd question- Why don't they value Iloka at all? Guy has everything you want in a safety yet the Bengals still haven't signed him up yet. They kept Leon last year and he cost them 9 million dollars against the cap and he was a nickel back over 30 with two Achilles tears. Why are they so hesitant to pay a première safety.

They value George, but they also feel Shawn Williams is ready to start. This is an instance where a young player emerging in his prime is coming into market in need of such safeties. George can easily pull a dollar figure that the team isn’t willing to do. Clearly, they don’t think he’s a top 10 safety in the league – George isn’t wrong to think he is. This could be a situation where the market may dictate his value and the team comes back in on him.

3rd question- Mo already stated he wants out and Jones will cost a ton of money. What's there plan b when it comes to a WR if they can't get either done?

Brandon Tate? Seriously though – Plan B would be a low priced veteran FA they like who is cut from another team (they won’t want to give up a compensatory pick for signing a true unrestricted free agent) or through the draft. Remember – on both sides, player and team – this wide receiver is the No. 3 target on this team. They can’t pay them around A.J.’s money, and probably not what they’ll give Eifert in an extension.


Marvin Jones, Sanu, Iloka, Nelson. Do you know how the Bengals have them prioritized? Are there any offers on the table now? If not, do the Bengals plan on allowing them to test the market and then make a counter offer if given the chance?

Marvin 1, probably Reggie 2, George 2a, Sanu. And I believe three of those four will be allowed to test the market (Reggie may get done before Monday). You didn’t add Adam Jones in there, and I think he’s in there as the true “2.”

Who are some of the outside free agents the Bengals are targeting? Or what positions would they like to strengthen before the draft? Or do they wait until after the initial wave of signings and then decide?

Honestly, no idea. They move very slowly, and in a structured process. Obviously they have targets (i.e. A.J. Hawk) but they keep that very, very quiet. Draft will be determined by who returns or who doesn’t in FA. They have a small staff – so everyone scouts everyone. Duke Tobin and his handful of guys have a list of current NFL players they like.

Who scouts the outside free agents? If the coaches are busy with the draft process, who meets with the outside FAs? Explain the behind the scenes FA process within the Bengals' front office as Mike Brown transitions from the decision making process and how has it changed? How might it change? Who manages the cap for the Bengals? The Bengals roll over unused cap space each year since the rule change, what happens to the roll over from two seasons ago? What percentage of the cap spending did the Bengals meet and will the team by team percentages be released to the fans?

Lot here, but Mike is still the final word – but Katie has more influence than ever. Marvin Lewis is also has a big say in things. Mike and Troy and Katie Blackburn and Duke Tobin all keep tabs on the cap. The roll over money from 2014 was used in the A.J. Green extension. How much of it? I don’t know…I can take a peek into that as best I can.

1. There's actually about $36M in cap space if you count all contracts, dead money and bonus money.

I address this in the story….

2. There are signing bonuses and other up front money that gets spread out over the term of the contract, but does need to be paid by the team on new contracts in year one. Also, the team could front load the contract to consume more of this year's cap and have a team friendly cap number for the balance of the contract. This elevates the actual spent money in 2016 and there's only so much money on hand to spend.

Not really. For the Bengals, the “signing bonus” is spread over the length of the deal as guaranteed money. It is announced as just a signing bonus so the general thought is it’s all in one shot. Here’s a distinction – a “roster bonus” is the total that has to be paid out immediately and comes immediately out of that year’s cap. So for instance, they can announce Marvin Jones gets a $10 million signing bonus on a new 5-year deal. But only $2 million of that would count against the 2016 cap. If they say the deal includes a $10 million roster bonus – all of that would count against the 2016 cap.

Let’s take AJ Green for example: What the Bengals like to do, or have done, is this (in terms of “front loading”) is this. A.J. Green signed his extension in 2015. He was going to play under the $11.75 fifth-year guaranteed tag anyway. So the Bengals just added on to that, adding a $15 million (signing bonus) - $3 mil against cap until 2019. They also gave him a $6 million roster bonus in 2016. So AJ’s base comes all the way down to $3.8 this year. But with the signing bonus ($3) and roster bonus ($6) he still gets $20+ ‘guaranteed’ in the first two years. It’s convoluted, yes, but that’s how the Bengals like to structure things. You’ll get yours, just over two seasons as opposed to in one giant check (like Joe Flacco showed off to his teamamtes).


3. We always have an injury pool figured in, but rarely use much of it. Last year when Dalton got injured the team did explore signing a vet QB, but opted for Wenning instead. That isn't always possible. When AJ Green was injured in 2014 we opted to waste cap money by signing Little, who lived up to his name in every way on the field.

Last year, yes. Two years ago (I think) they had to. You can’t predict it. Banner said a lot of teams choose to use around $4-5 million – others borrow against this and take their chances with $1 million or so. Are the Bengals conservative here – yes.

4. The most pressing free agent for next year is Eifert. The team could exercise it's 5th year team option or sign him to a long term deal. I expect they'll go for the long term deal and failing that will exercise the option. But this is going to take some up front money.

The team will use it’s fifth year option. I’ll tell you right now they will. Done. And then they’ll try and extend him before week 1 like they did with A.J. last year. And yes, that 5th year will be guaranteed so it will take a lot of that cap in 2016.

5. The team is overpaying for Zietler and Kirkpatrick for 2016 by exercising their 5th year team options. Zietler will be the highest paid OG in the NFL this year as a result. Kirkpatrick will be paid $7.5M in 2016 and I'd much rather have Adam Jones at that price. The team could try to come to long term extensions and reduce this year's cap numbers, but don't look for them to do that.

As I noted above, if they choose to sign extensions, those players will make those dollars in 2016 – it’s just if they sign extensions you’ll see their numbers come down in 2017 (like A.J.’s mere $3.8 million base). So they’ll even it out if they choose to extend them before week 1 of this season….


6. We don't know the team's actual financial state. It just might not have all of the $155M plus the additional bonus and up front money for new contracts signed this year.

They have all of the money available to spend to the cap. But in their mind, their “player salary cap” isn’t 155 – it’s closer to $140/$142….

7. The team can rollover money unused cap money to 2017 but it needs to tell the NFL how much it wants to rollover. It can also just not spend the money and not roll it over either. Thus it will never be spent. The team had $25M leftover from 2011, but didn't roll it over to 2012. Yep, you read that right.

Yes. They rolled over $7.5 to sign Zeit/Dre/Gio/Hewitt/Hill, etc, if they want. Whether they do or not, up to them or the players they’re negotiating with….

8. We draft later, so our rookie pool should be smaller.

True. But banner said it’s $6-7 no matter what. They may yet get an comp. pick for Newhouse, so they have two more players to draft and sign. Is it a ton of money? No, but it’s extra….and this is money they have to spend.

9. The team likes to get compensatory picks and this is factored into free agency. Whether they admit it or not. When the 2017 draft comes around there will be people posting how smart the Bengals were to let some of these guys go, even if we go one and done again.

Yes. Marvin Jones, George Iloka and Andre Smith could all end up giving them 3rd round picks. Mo Sanu could be a 4th rounder. Trust me – this matters. They will try to re-sign them though.

I checked Spotrac. The estimated $36 million cap is for the top 51 and the dead space money. The rookie pool is approx 7 million. If they draft 7 rookies, let's assume all seven make the 53 man roster. Players from the top 51 along with their salaries will be replace by the rookies and their rookie contracts.

Hobson and Joe Banner make is seem like it is $36M - $7M = $29M cap space remaining. It's not like that at all. The rooke deals are replacing pre-existing deals already on the books.

Yes, but it’s all moveable. Let’s say they draft a corner No. 24. Just to make it easy, let’s say he signs the exact same deal Ogbuehi did – so he’ll get about $1.7 mil per. And he replaces Chris Lewis Harris on the 53. That’s a big difference.

Let’s say they re-sign Marvin Jones at what Leon made. That’s a wash salary-wise on the 53. I get what you’re saying. It’s not dollar for dollar, player for player.

The injury pool is an excuse not to spend money. Jim, can you find out how much money the Bengals have actually spent from the injury pool? I would be surprised if it were anything like they claim.

I get you. The injury pool has to exist, it’s just how much does a team want to set aside? The Bengals are conservative. They are. They probably made out last year with so few injuries. Should they be less conservative? On the surface, yes. But then if Burfict / Maualuga get hurt in week 4 you’re rolling with guys who have been on the street for a year vs. say an established veteran maybe cut by another team. You can take from that pool for uFA, but it is a risk. Is it “cheap” – a way to “hide” money from UFAs…that’s not up to me to determine.


When was the last time the Bengals didn't roll over unused cap space? Many players have split salaries in case of injury which reduces their cap hit. Hobson and Banner don't mention split salaries. If they don't have the cap space they can renegotiate with a player to get into cap compliance. Incentives; I remember Hobson explaining how the Bengals needed to plan for Keith Rivers incentives in the second year because he didn't earn them during his rookie season, yada, yada, yada.

I can’t say the last time. It seems like they’ve really tried to re-sign/extend key players since 2011 (Hall, Dunlap, Atkins, etc etc) So that money is being used. How much of it? I dunno. As for split salaries/renegotiations/restructures – on balance, the Bengals don’t want to do that, ever. They want to agree to a contract and pay that amount. Simple math. As for incentives – yes – the Bengals lump that into their “injury pool” amount … so again, is it a way to hide money? Not up to me to say that. But you better have that money in case Chris Lewis-Harris some how plays all 16 games due to injury and plays X amount of snaps to reach a bonus no one thought he would earn.

Workout bonuses: Do they Bengals have 100% participation? The NFL deducts the money from the teams and any unearned workout bonuses get returned to the team.

If it’s a bonus in a player’s contract (i.e. AJ Green’s at 200K – yes, they get 100% participation. It’s meant to be “guaranteed” money because really, no player is not going to meet that.

Not each team took in $310M ($155M x 2). That's the average and the Bengals income is certainly lower than that. And from that comes a massive insurance payment, fees to the league, marketing costs, facilities costs, uniforms, travel, hotels, meals, equipment, etc, etc, etc. The list of expenses is a lot longer than most might imagine and those costs have only gone up and up some more.

Revenue/expenses is a whole other thing. The Bengals are a private business and has no reason to share any of that publicly. If it ever comes out, it’s up to them.


The biggest frustration isn't necessarily the cap number NOW. It's the refusal to add additional cap space by cutting the right players. The biggest criticism of the Bengals is they are very loyal to certain players and have never shown the foresight to look at the current, under-contract guys and see where they could upgrade.

That’s true – when based on the entirety of the league. The way the team looks at it is this – they’re selling all these guys on hey, sign here for less money up front in roster bonuses, or to spread your signing bonus over 3-5 years – because you’ll be here in 5 years to collect all of it. Go to Team B for “45 million” but they’ll cut you after a year or two and you’ll only collect $10 of it and have to pay back some money. So, that’s what you’re selling. But if you just go ahead and cut Leon Hall or Domata Peko or whoever at the end of the day, the players will say ‘eff you, you don’t keep your word, you cut guys anyway.’ It’s either/or. And the Bengals would rather keep Hall and Peko around for that last year to prove their point, to validate their tough negotiating tactic, vs. having to get into the game of false money up front.

Watch how much other teams with far less cap space will spend when free agency opens up...... I guess they won't have rookies, injuries, and future contracts.

Yes. And that happens for two reasons. For instance, the Seahawks rolled over just $11K. Yes, $11K. Why? Because they chose to spend all that money up front on the 2016 team to win the Super Bowl and pay their guys. Other teams will also allot just $1 million to injuries to spend the extra $3-4 on FAs. Other teams will cut established veterans and get their money back to create cap space. So yes, you’ll see that – but those are things that the Bengals just choose not to do.


Every year we also see teams have to cut veteran starters because they are over the cap.

See above.

I have not seen anyone show that the bengals actually spend that much less than all other teams.

The Bengals are not among the teams that have to hit the salary floor because yes, they spend money. They are not going over the cap, forcing them to cut guys to do so. They are not spending $45 million on two players to force them to pay rookie and veteran minimums at other key positions. They are middle of the pack.


Regardless, the salary cap is the same for all 32 teams. Everyone has to deal with rookie pools, injuries, workout and incentive bonuses, etc. I'm just so sick and tired of the annual poor mouthing at the start of free agency as to why they can't do better than their track record of "kicking tires" because of the rookie pool and the injury pool and the other pools. … They act like "we can't spend that dead money," but they already spent it. Don't worry about the dead money if it can give you needed cap space.

Yes, the dead money is already spent – on players no longer on the team. So you can’t use it. Haloti Ngata counted $7.5 million of dead money against the Ravens’ cap. Yes, it was already spent. On him. Even though he was in Detroit in 2015. The Ravens couldn’t just take that $7.5 million and spend it on another player because they were spending it on Ngata. He counted against the Baltimore and Detroit caps in 2015.

[Stormborn]

(03-04-2016, 04:17 PM)jowczarski Wrote: 3rd question- Mo already stated he wants out and Jones will cost a ton of money. What's there plan b when it comes to a WR if they can't get either done?

Brandon Tate? Seriously though – Plan B would be a low priced veteran FA they like who is cut from another team (they won’t want to give up a compensatory pick for signing a true unrestricted free agent) or through the draft. Remember – on both sides, player and team – this wide receiver is the No. 3 target on this team. They can’t pay them around A.J.’s money, and probably not what they’ll give Eifert in an extension.

Jim, honestly, picture yourself as a fan, reading that your team is likely refusing to appropriately compensate the loss of a key weapon because they want a late 4th round pick in the next year's draft.
Doesn't it pain you to write stuff like this? Because the truth hurts.

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2016, 04:25 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Jim, honestly, picture yourself as a fan, reading that your team is likely refusing to appropriately compensate the loss of a key weapon because they want a late 4th round pick in the next year's draft.
Doesn't it pain you to write stuff like this? Because the truth hurts.

They are not refusing to "appropriately compensate".  They are refusing to "overpay".

[leonardfan40]

As far as the possible Newhouse comp pick. I always follow these very closely and there is a site that goes into great detail every year about comp picks and are usually pretty accurate. This year they say we will be eligible for a pick for him but likely won't land one because of the large number of players who qualify their old teams for comp picks. With only 32 comp picks to be had it appears Newhouse was so far down the list that he wasn't one of the top 32 qualifying FA losses. Just in case anyone was interested, and it's not set in stone but it's a pretty good bet we don't get one this year.

[Stormborn]

(03-04-2016, 04:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are not refusing to "appropriately compensate".  They are refusing to "overpay".

Dumb excuse. We can get him at appropriate value, and still be fine in the cap.

Sometimes going just over your set value to retain or bring in important assets is well worth it, but the FO will never know because change sucks. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2016, 04:17 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Marvin Jones, Sanu, Iloka, Nelson. Do you know how the Bengals have them prioritized? Are there any offers on the table now? If not, do the Bengals plan on allowing them to test the market and then make a counter offer if given the chance?

Marvin 1, probably Reggie 2, George 2a, Sanu. And I believe three of those four will be allowed to test the market (Reggie may get done before Monday). You didn’t add Adam Jones in there, and I think he’s in there as the true “2.”

I didn't include Adam Jones because I think they need to move on.  They have two recent 1st round CBs in Dennard and Kirkpatrick that they need to play.  I'd rather keep Hall just because he comes with less characte issues.  The money saved on Adam Jones can be used to re-sign one of their own who is younger.  Get a cheaper, younger #4 CB in the  middle of draft.  Maybe spend some of that money on improving the pass rush.  Maybe target a guy like OLB Nigel Bradham who shouldn't break the bank.

This is all opinion.  More than one way to skin a cat as they say.

Quote:
Regardless, the salary cap is the same for all 32 teams.  Everyone has to deal with rookie pools, injuries, workout and incentive bonuses, etc.  I'm just so sick and tired of the annual poor mouthing at the start of free agency as to why they can't do better than their track record of "kicking tires" because of the rookie pool and the injury pool and the other pools. … They act like "we can't spend that dead money," but they already spent it.  Don't worry about the dead money if it can give you needed cap space.

Yes, the dead money is already spent – on players no longer on the team. So you can’t use it. Haloti Ngata counted $7.5 million of dead money against the Ravens’ cap. Yes, it was already spent. On him. Even though he was in Detroit in 2015. The Ravens couldn’t just take that $7.5 million and spend it on another player because they were spending it on Ngata. He counted against the Baltimore and Detroit caps in 2015.

Whether Nata was on the team or not, he counted $7.5M in dead money on Baltimore's cap.  By trading Nata they saved $8.5M in cap space for his his salary and received 2 draft picks for a player that wouldn't renegotiate and were going to lose anyway even though he counted as $7.5M in dead money.  If they kept him he would counted $16M towards their cap instead of $7.5M. Point being the Bengals don't need to put a single dollar aside for potential dead money as Hobson wrote.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer.  It's good having you here.

[jj22]

(03-04-2016, 04:17 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Yes. Marvin Jones, George Iloka and Andre Smith could all end up giving them 3rd round picks. Mo Sanu could be a 4th rounder. Trust me – this matters. They will try to re-sign them though.

I checked Spotrac.  The estimated $36 million cap is for the top 51 and the dead space money.  The rookie pool is approx 7 million.  If they draft 7 rookies, let's assume all seven make the 53 man roster.  Players from the top 51 along with their salaries will be replace by the rookies and their rookie contracts.  

Not sure if I'm reading this wrong but you can only get 1 3rd round pick. So they won't get one for each of them. And all the comp picks in the world hasn't gotten us a playoff win.

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2016, 05:09 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Whether Nata was on the team or not, he counted $7.5M in dead money on Baltimore's cap.  By trading Nata they saved $8.5M in cap space for his his salary and received 2 draft picks for a player that wouldn't renegotiate and were going to lose anyway even though he counted as $7.5M in dead money.  If they kept him he would counted $16M towards their cap instead of $7.5M.  Point being the Bengals don't need to put a single dollar aside for potential dead money as Hobson wrote.

So the Ravens got s player to replace Ngata who played for free?

if you cut a player that creates dead money you still have to pay another player to replace him.

[BengalChris]

(03-04-2016, 01:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Thank you.  That is the salary cap accounting details which the Bengals never put out with the smoke and mirrors.

Let's say the Bengals draft a 1st round DT and release Peko.  Peko's cap savings would be roughly $3.5M +/-.  Right?  D.J. Humphrey was drafted 24th last year with rookie cap hit of $1.6M.

That's roughly, a ball park $2M cap savings (just to make the math easy for me.)  That cap savings will damn near cover the rest of your rookie pool, correct?  Please let me know if I'm wrong.  Thanks.

The information is out there you just have to know where to find it.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/cap/

You can see the basic data you need at this link. You will note that Peko's contract has no dead money in it, so cutting Peko would save the team 3.75M. But I don't see them doing that because he's a leader on the team and his replacement is nowhere on the roster. They won't cut him and hope a draft pick can fill that roll. They'll keep Peko and hopefully draft a NT to be his eventual replacement.

From scanning through the list of contracts, the ones that I see that could be cut and replaced are Nugent, Hawk and Hunt. But I doubt the team cuts Hawk unless there's a viable alternative drafted. With Burfict out for 3 weeks, the team will feel it needs Hawk in the fold.

The team has plenty of cap space, it just isn't going to use all of it and that's really the issue fans have. Even if they roll over some to next year, there's still plenty left to work with, but won't use it.

In 2015 we used most of our cap space, except $8M and we rolled over $7.5M of that. But we also resigned AJ last year and we had $4.8M is dead money in 2015. This year we only have $192K. So that's $4.6M more to work with. But, if we don't use it, it does no good.

[BengalChris]

(03-04-2016, 12:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Every year we also see teams have to cut veteran starters because they are over the cap.  

I have not seen anyone show that the bengals actually spend that much less than all other teams.

Has anyone actually posted that number yet are have you all been to busy patting yourselves on the back for "knowing" that the Bengals are the cheapest team in the league.

The claim that the Bengals just develop players and let them walk away is not true.  We have lost a total of 4 decent players to free agency over the last 15 years (Justin Smith, Eric Steainbach, Johnathan Joseph, and Michael Johnson).  Some people might add Houshmandzadeh, but we did give him a second contract and he did not leave until he was 32.

Meanwhile we have stepped up and paid top dollar to keep many veteran starters like Palmer, Ochcocinco, Rudi, TJ, Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Bobbie Williams, Rich Braham, Robert Geathers, Cedric Benson, Whitworth, Peko, Reggie Nelson, Dunlap, Atkins, Leon Hall, Dalton, Boling, Maualuga, and others.

Like most people here I would like to see the bengals step up and sign at least one upper tier free agent to help put us over the top, but that does not mean I have to act like they don't spend money to keep their best players here.

I honestly don't know if the Bengals spend less money than all the other teams, but I would like to see the numbers instead of just all this squealing about the Bengals are the cheapest team in the league.  And I am not talking about handing out big "play money" contracts that never get paid.  I am talking about how much money they are actually spending on salary each year.

The team just might double that figure this year alone.