Thoughts on Dre K ?

[BengalsRocker]

(03-12-2016, 10:32 AM)Se ky bengal Wrote:  Thanks for the confirmation Jason. rep to you sir. I didn't want to get in a pissing match with anyone, but I wish they cut him and use that money to resign Reggie. I've never liked Dre. just my opinion,but he shouldn't be starting. Reggie getting up there in age and led the league in interceptions for most of the year. 
He still got 2-3 good years left and I may be wrong but I don't think Dre had 1last year and in fact I can just think or 5 or6 he has had in his 4 years and gets plenty pass interference especially on deep throws, cut him his7 million [maybe wrong on these numbers] would go a long ways in retaining an bringing someone in maybe a good center, Bodine just seems to be the weakness of the line. just my opinion. 

See that's the thing.  Is the team hanging onto Dre for comfort and the ease of the 5th year option?

I know it would take some more effort to find a starting CB(whether be draft or FA)but it could be done. 

Shaw showed some promise internally.  Dennard... who knows?  Lewis said he's the best CB he's worked with.

That $7.5 mill could be used elsewhere.

Either resigning someone like Nelson(proven yet old) or even a LB like Laurinaitis to upgrade the corps.

I'm not trashing on DreK.  He's okay.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Yes he's a part of a very good defense but certainly replaceable.

The question is...  is he better than Hall or Nelson(or both)for the D? Could his play be replaced with a rook or a cheaper FA?

[Se ky bengal]

(03-12-2016, 03:07 AM)phil413 Wrote: Pacman's signing may directly affect negotiations with Dre, and it could be a win/win for both sides.  Dre's camp could have more leverage in their opinion but Cincy wouldn't franchise him or overpay him as some other teams may with the question marks they have in the short term at CB.  Now Cincy can play through the year and if Dennard is up to speed by the end of the year and looks like a starter then they may transition Dre and let him come back with the biggest ACTUAL offer to match or pass on.  I'll echo what others say that there should be one more corner at some point, and hopefully Dre brings his A game in his contract year.  The good news is he isn't handcuffing them.

sadly I think we've seen  his A game.1st round 17th pick , we shouldn't be having this conversation. I mean hall who was 1st rounder 18th pick is 32 or 33  gives it his all every day,he also had a better season than Dre. if we gotta wait till his contract year to see what he can do, well then its time to kick rocks.hall is visiting cardinals I know he is 1 injury away from career ending, but they all are aren't they 

[Se ky bengal]

(03-12-2016, 10:10 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It normally doesn't take 5 years. By normally, I mean for everyone who isn't a bust.

Jones looked bad then because he was out of the league for a year prior to that. He didn't play in 2009 or 2007. Anyone who is out of football for 2 of the last 3 years will be rusty.

There's a pretty big difference between not wanting the 9th worst CB in the league at $7.5m and demanding a perennial Pro Bowler. The fact that you think it can only be one extreme or the other is the truly hysterical part.

especially a 1st round pick he should be lot better. I'm with you a bust, that needs cut and use that money to retain Nelson and give Hall a 1 year contract. that's not even talking about tackling. oh god such an awful tackler.  replace him with perennial pro bowler, shit I'd be happy with a decent corner back someone whose not gonna be beaten on every or most plays or draw so many penalties. 

(03-12-2016, 11:01 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: See that's the thing.  Is the team hanging onto Dre for comfort and the ease of the 5th year option?

I know it would take some more effort to find a starting CB(whether be draft or FA)but it could be done. 

Shaw showed some promise internally.  Dennard... who knows?  Lewis said he's the best CB he's worked with.

That $7.5 mill could be used elsewhere.

Either resigning someone like Nelson(proven yet old) or even a LB like Laurinaitis to upgrade the corps.

I'm not trashing on DreK.  He's okay.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Yes he's a part of a very good defense but certainly replaceable.

The question is...  is he better than Hall or Nelson(or both)for the D? Could his play be replaced with a rook or a cheaper FA?

 FO needs to realize what most everyone else sees replace him. I think he would be replaced easily in FA or draft. yes he is part of a good defense ,but he cost that same defense a lot yards in pass interference. I know some are bs calls but most aren't. IMO Hall and Nelson are both better. 

[yellowxdiscipline]

(12-13-2015, 09:17 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: So we've seen Dre K play as much as he ever has in the past.  

Do you guys think he's someone we should retain?

My guess is that he will play better for that contract this year.

[Se ky bengal]

(03-12-2016, 04:36 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: My guess is that he will play better for that contract this year.

7.5 million a year   he needs to give it his all every game . I'm afraid we've seen his best. 

[*Nately120*]

Meh, this guy has been such a poster child for "THIS COULD BE THE YEAR!!!!" that he may as well play for the Chicago Cubs.

I think I bitterly joked 2 years ago that we JUST MIGHT know what we have in this guy before his rookie deal is up, and it looks like I may have been accurate with my cynicism.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-13-2016, 02:17 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, this guy has been such a poster child for "THIS COULD BE THE YEAR!!!!" that he may as well play for the Chicago Cubs.

I think I bitterly joked 2 years ago that we JUST MIGHT know what we have in this guy before his rookie deal is up, and it looks like I may have been accurate with my cynicism.

He can join Hunt, Porter, Moch, Ghee, Whalen, and Coffman in the "Hall of This Year". Lol

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 07:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2nd in missed tackles among CB
11th in YAC allowed
3rd in penalties among all positions

PFF's (admittedly not an automatic truth, but interesting) 9th worst CB last year.

Thankfully Adam and Reggie were absolutely tearing it up last year.

Once again you are clearly cherry picking just the random stats that make Dre look the worst.  Reminds me of your comical attempt to claim Marvin Jones wasone of the worst deep threats in the league based just on the lenghth of his longets reception.

When i want to judge a CB those are a few of the last numbers I would look at.  What was the QB passer rating for targets at Dre?  How many times was he targeted compared to our other CBs.  these are the imnplortant stats.  not just the 3 worst ones you could find.

first of all what was the QB passer rating

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 08:23 PM)jason Wrote: Your lying eyes aren't fooling you...  Dre is garbage.

(03-11-2016, 11:41 PM)Butchie Tiger Wrote: Dre is trash...gets beat way too often and is terrible at tackling !!

None of this is true at all.

if dre was garbage then opposing QBs woiuld have targeted him all the time and gotten a lot of long completions and tds.  Or else they would have just marched down the field with a string of completions to the guy Dre wascovering.  This just did not happen.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-13-2016, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Once again you are clearly cherry picking just the random stats that make Dre look the worst.  Reminds me of your comical attempt to claim Marvin Jones wasone of the worst deep threats in the league based just on the lenghth of his longets reception.

When i want to judge a CB those are a few of the last numbers I would look at.  What was the QB passer rating for targets at Dre?  How many times was he targeted compared to our other CBs.  these are the imnplortant stats.  not just the 3 worst ones you could find.

first of all what was the QB passer rating

First off, if you're going to continue to troll my posts, at least have the decency to stop making up things. I never ever claimed Jones was one of the worst deep threats in the league. I claimed he was an average/mediocre deep threat. I was just disagreeing with someone saying he was a great deep threat, because I simply don't believe someone can be a great deep threat if they have 12.6 yards per catch. What's deep about that?

- - - - - - -

That aside, I don't know the QB Rating for targets at Dre but PFF gave him like a 38.8/100 rating for 2015. Here's the rest of the Bengals secondary...

Nelson at 84.2
Adam at 84.0
Iloka at 82.6
Hall at 78.4
Shaw at 73.8
Williams at 73.7
Dennard at 73.4

...so Kirkpatrick's 38.8 is a big steaming pile that was propped up by an otherwise great secondary.


What I also know is that Dre was the 2nd highest targeted CB in the NFL at 112 targets. The only person targeted more was Marcus Peters, and that was because he was a starting rookie CB, but at least he turned all those targets into a good season by tying for the INT lead (Dre had 0) and becoming a Pro Bowler and 2nd Team All-Pro in his first year in the NFL. He was the 18th overall pick, awfully close to Dre's disappointing 17th overall spot.

No matter how you spin it, Kirkpatrick is a bust and just not very good.

[BengalsRocker]

(03-13-2016, 02:17 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, this guy has been such a poster child for "THIS COULD BE THE YEAR!!!!" that he may as well play for the Chicago Cubs.

I think I bitterly joked 2 years ago that we JUST MIGHT know what we have in this guy before his rookie deal is up, and it looks like I may have been accurate with my cynicism.

(03-13-2016, 02:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He can join Hunt, Porter, Moch, Ghee, Whalen, and Coffman in the "Hall of This Year". Lol

No shit.

"It's his contract year.  Oh ma gerd he's gonna show us what he can really do!!"

How many times have we heard that kind of stuff?

Problem is...  he is a mid first round pick.  You know.  One of the guys we got from the Palmer trade.

So yeah.  The magnifying glass is going to be on him.

If we are talking about guys lower in the draft then there's a lot more room for excuses.  A lot less money involved too.

Look.  I just think his money along with a few other current players should be reevaluated.

It takes work and effort to do this.  Making tough decisions and wooing FAs to sign here.

Something I'm not so confident the FO is willing to do.  Then there is the loyalty to a fault aspect.

[Westwood Bengal]

Shocked by some of the responses here. He's not one of the best, but is more than serviceable. As long as another team doesn't come in and offer him top dollar, I really hope to keep him around.

[*Synric*]

Nobody has mentioned how much he improved in the second half of the season.

[jfkbengals]

(03-11-2016, 03:04 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Yes Dre needs to stay hes was very good most of the year last year.

#1 corner on what was the #1 Scoring defense for much of the season.

Hes under contract for this season as we picked up his option...   So extenstion will probly be explored during camp

One of the articles on the Bengals front page made mention of some of our cap space being allotted to getting extensions for Dre and Zeitler before the season begins.

(03-12-2016, 10:10 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It normally doesn't take 5 years. By normally, I mean for everyone who isn't a bust.

Jones looked bad then because he was out of the league for a year prior to that. He didn't play in 2009 or 2007. Anyone who is out of football for 2 of the last 3 years will be rusty.

There's a pretty big difference between not wanting the 9th worst CB in the league at $7.5m and demanding a perennial Pro Bowler. The fact that you think it can only be one extreme or the other is the truly hysterical part.

With the amount of injury time, you can argue that Dre was out of football for that same length of time.  You have to admit, not being on the field (practice or other) limits growth during that time period.

(03-13-2016, 11:27 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: What I also know is that Dre was the 2nd highest targeted CB in the NFL at 112 targets. The only person targeted more was Marcus Peters, and that was because he was a starting rookie CB, but at least he turned all those targets into a good season by tying for the INT lead (Dre had 0) and becoming a Pro Bowler and 2nd Team All-Pro in his first year in the NFL. He was the 18th overall pick, awfully close to Dre's disappointing 17th overall spot.

No matter how you spin it, Kirkpatrick is a bust and just not very good.

How is that significant to his performance?

We were involved in quite a few shootouts, and we blew out the opponent on a number of occasions.

Both of those situations cause an opponent to heavily throw the ball, and the starting CBs are going to be targeted the most.

Were I the opposing QB, I think I would also chose to attack the side of the first year starter over the seasoned veterans on the opposite wide out and slot receiver.

Having said that, I don't see how targets is a significant metric of performance.

[fredtoast]

Okay. So here is my argument basedon all the comments made about Dre.

if we can have a top 5 pass defense with one of the worst CBs in the entire league, then why pay anyone over the league minimun to play CB for us?

Why waste the moeny when the CBs cover abilities have nothing to do wiyh us having a top 5 pass defense?

That is why the Broncos are not willing to spend a ton of money on a QB. So we should do the exact same thing at CB. Just sign some rookies undrafted free agent to start at CB for us. Think of the millions we would save.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(03-13-2016, 01:34 PM)Synric Wrote: Nobody has mentioned how much he improved in the second half of the season.

Because no one cares. 
Just like no one cared when Andre was a top 10 OT in the NFL for a 2 year run. 

We are in mob-mentality territory now. 
There's no changing it. 

[*jason*]

(03-13-2016, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: None of this is true at all.

if dre was garbage then opposing QBs woiuld have targeted him all the time and gotten a lot of long completions and tds.  Or else they would have just marched down the field with a string of completions to the guy Dre wascovering.  This just did not happen.

Well....  If you  say so.

Actually, he was targeted a lot.  He's one of the weak links on this defense.... period.  We can pretend that a QB can just repeatedly target a CB over, and over, and over again, or we can sometimes admit that some Bengals just aren't all that great.  I want the guy to succeed and be as great as he seems to think he can be, but he's been a major disappointment.  He was great on special teams in 2014...  I'll give you that.

[Derrick]

(12-14-2015, 12:03 AM)Yojimbo Wrote: He seems to struggle with the smaller quicker wr's. I'd like to see him get more Int's. At his current level of play, I wouldn't make him a priority to re-sign.

I suspect his footwork betrays him as he always seems to be tripped up trying to adjust his position. Where is that vaulted DB coach?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-13-2016, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: When i want to judge a CB those are a few of the last numbers I would look at.  What was the QB passer rating for targets at Dre?  How many times was he targeted compared to our other CBs.  these are the imnplortant stats.  not just the 3 worst ones you could find.

(03-13-2016, 02:02 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: How is that significant to his performance?

Having said that, I don't see how targets is a significant metric of performance.

I never said it was significant to his performance, JFK, period.

Fred was the one crying about wanting to know targets. I already said some of the things I thought was imporant. Penalties, missed tackles, yards after the catch allowed. He wanted targets, so I gave him targets.

If you want to enter the conversation, you need to actually read the conversation. Otherwise you just came in and looked at one post without reading the post it was quoted to, and drawing your own wrong conclusions. If you want to talk about how targets aren't important for his evaluation, quote Fred instead, not me.

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2016, 02:34 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I never said it was significant to his performance, JFK, period.

Fred was the one crying about wanting to know targets. I already said some of the things I thought was imporant. Penalties, missed tackles, yards after the catch allowed. He wanted targets, so I gave him targets.

If you want to enter the conversation, you need to actually read the conversation. Otherwise you just came in and looked at one post without reading the post it was quoted to, and drawing your own wrong conclusions. If you want to talk about how targets aren't important for his evaluation, quote Fred instead, not me.

Where are you getting your stats?  Why won't you post them all?

The stats you posted asre not meaningless, but no one looks at them first when trying to see who the best CB in the league is.

PFF does a decent job of compiling objective stats, but their ranking system is suspect.