Bengals Ownership Growing Impatient with Marvin Lewis

[Shake n Blake]

(04-08-2016, 10:37 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: I disagree that Jay walked into a QB controversy. He was hand picked to develop RG, not Kirk Cousins. Only he Quickly found out, as his predecessor did, that RG was not multidimensional.  Either way, that franchise was certainly a mess as the rumor goes, in large part because of RG. Jay's done a fine job for them but that division is whack. I honestly don't believe he'll last more than another coupla years there. If it weren't for Cousins being competent, I'd say Jay would already be in danger. 

Mike Zimmer is a fine coach. Not surprised he's had success. 

Marvin's done some nice things here and although some draft choices were more obvious than others, he gets some credit for finding some decent players even some all pros. 

This organization was in as much dysfunction as any have ever been when Marvin took over. We haven't had to wear bags over our head in many years. Even when our all world QB 'retired'. You can say Jay chose Andy but that decision at some point had to be approved by Marvin, at least initially. Because I guarantee that without his approval, no way Mike Brown doesn't go after that other QB he wanted. 

Maybe no other coach would get as many chances to rebuild a team like Marvin has, but he's answered the call each time. By my estimation, he's (re)built this team 3 times. 

In case it hasn't been posted, someone in the FO said that the OP was bunk. 

If you don't think there was any QB controversy in Washington, I'm really not sure how to convince you otherwise. There was arguably controversy from the moment Kirk Cousins was drafted. RGIII was benched for the last 3 games of '13. While Shanny claimed it was to rest RGIII and "prevent injury", many viewed it as an excuse to get Cousins on the field. 

You're right that Jay was picked to resurrect RGIII's career (Dan Snider was pretty much in RGIII's back pocket), but that doesn't mean there wasn't a groundswell of support for Cousins. Either way, for Jay to stand up to Snyder and play Cousins took serious guts, and it paid off. Jay deserves a lot of praise for getting the Skins through that storm. It very well could've turned out much worse, and honestly I thought it was headed that way. No one expected the Skins to go 9-7 last year. 

No doubt the Bengals had been bad for a long time when Marv came along, but it's really undeniable that most of the key pieces were already there for him. Carson Palmer was the consensus #1 pick and would've been a Bengal with or without Marvin. Plus all the other players I mentioned. So I'm not sure how Marv rebuilt the Bengals when most of the core was already there. 

Marv was definitely the best coach we'd had since Wyche, but I tend to believe that a team with Palmer, Chad, TJ, Warrick, Rudi, Willie, Levi, Justin, Brian Simmons, etc would've been competitive with any competent HC. Does anyone really think we would've went 4-12 with that group had we hired Coughlin or Denny Green instead? The Bengals were bad because they'd been drafting poorly through the 90's. 

But right before Marv arrived, the Bengals started hitting on several draft picks. Those picks were green in 2002, but we started seeing rewards in 2003 and beyond. Palmer was also the best QB prospect we ever had the opportunity to take. I know this idea takes away from the "Marv is a hero" narrative, but I believe the Bengals were in much better shape for the future than their record indicated at the time.

To finally wrap this up, I think Marv is a fine coach who really brought a steady hand to the organization, but I really think he gets to too much credit for "rebuilding". (3 rebuilds? When was the 3rd one?)

[Devils Advocate]

(04-08-2016, 11:50 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: How is it not a quarterback controversy when you have to bench your number two overall pick, the guy who was chosen to be the face of the franchise?  It took real balls to stand up to Daniel Snyder and not play RGIII.  Also, any coach without a competent quarterback is in danger... it is a quarterback driven league.  If you don't have one, you are desperately trying to find one.

I guess I'm splitting hairs because I believe Jay was hired specifically to develop RG. I know a QB controversy took place maybe even soon after Jay was hired, I just disagree that he walked into that situation. 

I don't mean to discredit what Jay's been able to do in Washington. I just think maybe he got a little lucky with Cousins on the roster. I don't think Jay's sold on him 100%. But he's competent. 

[WrongVerb]

I tend to think of Lewis' tenure in two segments: pre-2010 with Palmer and post-2010 with Dalton. And Brown is right, this Lewis-Dalton era should have gone further than it has. This season should be put up or shut up for Lewis.

My only fear is that if Lewis is fired and there isn't consistency going forward, you're going to wind up with something like what they're seeing in Philly. Hopefully PG or KZ will take over.

My only other comment is that I still think the team should have hired Zimmer as HC and moved Lewis upstairs to help with player personnel decisions.

[Devils Advocate]

(04-08-2016, 01:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If you don't think there was any QB controversy in Washington, I'm really not sure how to convince you otherwise. There was arguably controversy from the moment Kirk Cousins was drafted. RGIII was benched for the last 3 games of '13. While Shanny claimed it was to rest RGIII and "prevent injury", many viewed it as an excuse to get Cousins on the field. 

You're right that Jay was picked to resurrect RGIII's career (Dan Snider was pretty much in RGIII's back pocket), but that doesn't mean there wasn't a groundswell of support for Cousins. Either way, for Jay to stand up to Snyder and play Cousins took serious guts, and it paid off. Jay deserves a lot of praise for getting the Skins through that storm. It very well could've turned out much worse, and honestly I thought it was headed that way. No one expected the Skins to go 9-7 last year. 

No doubt the Bengals had been bad for a long time when Marv came along, but it's really undeniable that most of the key pieces were already there for him. Carson Palmer was the consensus #1 pick and would've been a Bengal with or without Marvin. Plus all the other players I mentioned. So I'm not sure how Marv rebuilt the Bengals when most of the core was already there. 

Marv was definitely the best coach we'd had since Wyche, but I tend to believe that a team with Palmer, Chad, TJ, Warrick, Rudi, Willie, Levi, Justin, Brian Simmons, etc would've been competitive with any competent HC. Does anyone really think we would've went 4-12 with that group had we hired Coughlin or Denny Green instead? The Bengals were bad because they'd been drafting poorly through the 90's. 

But right before Marv arrived, the Bengals started hitting on several draft picks. Those picks were green in 2002, but we started seeing rewards in 2003 and beyond. Palmer was also the best QB prospect we ever had the opportunity to take. I know this idea takes away from the "Marv is a hero" narrative, but I believe the Bengals were in much better shape for the future than their record indicated at the time.

To finally wrap this up, I think Marv is a fine coach who really brought a steady hand to the organization, but I really think he gets to too much credit for "rebuilding". (3 rebuilds? When was the 3rd one?)

No, I agree with what you and OB say. I just don't really think 'QB controversy' accurately describes the situation to what Jay walked into. I guess it's just my contrarian nature. 

I give Marvin credit for turning this franchise around regardless of who he had on the roster. I can't say things woulda been different if any other coach were hired. I do know how things were right up to the point Marvin first stepped onto the field. For that, I don't see how he doesn't deserve credit. So for me, that counts as 1 build.

 Around 08/09 I give him credit for a rebuild because this team was falling apart. I realize many may not agree. But at least agree that despite all the chaos in those days, Marvin managed to hold it together and even squeeze into the playoffs a coupla times. Yeah there was still talent on the roster but looking back at it its a wonder the wheels didn't fall completely off, like they eventually did. 

 I don't know, I just think those few years were crazy and he managed to keep it together, so That's 2.  

Of course he gets credit for This 3rd and our current era. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-08-2016, 01:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If you don't think there was any QB controversy in Washington, I'm really not sure how to convince you otherwise. There was arguably controversy from the moment Kirk Cousins was drafted. RGIII was benched for the last 3 games of '13. While Shanny claimed it was to rest RGIII and "prevent injury", many viewed it as an excuse to get Cousins on the field. 

You're right that Jay was picked to resurrect RGIII's career (Dan Snider was pretty much in RGIII's back pocket), but that doesn't mean there wasn't a groundswell of support for Cousins. Either way, for Jay to stand up to Snyder and play Cousins took serious guts, and it paid off. Jay deserves a lot of praise for getting the Skins through that storm. It very well could've turned out much worse, and honestly I thought it was headed that way. No one expected the Skins to go 9-7 last year. 

No doubt the Bengals had been bad for a long time when Marv came along, but it's really undeniable that most of the key pieces were already there for him. Carson Palmer was the consensus #1 pick and would've been a Bengal with or without Marvin. Plus all the other players I mentioned. So I'm not sure how Marv rebuilt the Bengals when most of the core was already there. 

Marv was definitely the best coach we'd had since Wyche, but I tend to believe that a team with Palmer, Chad, TJ, Warrick, Rudi, Willie, Levi, Justin, Brian Simmons, etc would've been competitive with any competent HC. Does anyone really think we would've went 4-12 with that group had we hired Coughlin or Denny Green instead? The Bengals were bad because they'd been drafting poorly through the 90's. 

But right before Marv arrived, the Bengals started hitting on several draft picks. Those picks were green in 2002, but we started seeing rewards in 2003 and beyond. Palmer was also the best  2nd best behind Greg Cook, QB prospect we ever had the opportunity to take. I know this idea takes away from the "Marv is a hero" narrative, but I believe the Bengals were in much better shape for the future than their record indicated at the time.

To finally wrap this up, I think Marv is a fine coach who really brought a steady hand to the organization, but I really think he gets to too much credit for "rebuilding". (3 rebuilds? When was the 3rd one?)

FIFY

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-08-2016, 01:58 PM)WrongVerb Wrote: I tend to think of Lewis' tenure in two segments: pre-2010 with Palmer and post-2010 with Dalton. And Brown is right, this Lewis-Dalton era should have gone further than it has. This season should be put up or shut up for Lewis.

My only fear is that if Lewis is fired and there isn't consistency going forward, you're going to wind up with something like what they're seeing in Philly. Hopefully PG or KZ will take over.

My only other comment is that I still think the team should have hired Zimmer as HC and moved Lewis upstairs to help with player personnel decisions.

Please no.....

[PDub80]

(04-07-2016, 04:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Redskins had the #5 defense in the league the year Marvin was there



Everyone that followed Marvin benefittied from the defense that MARVIN built.  That defense was ranked 24th the year before he arrived and 30th in his first year.  Marvin was the one that built it into one of the greatest in history.


Zimmer took over a team that was one year removed from making the playoffs and had a losing season.

Gruden took over a team that was one year removed from making the playoffs and only won 4 games.

Marvin took over a team that had not had a winning record in 13 years and had a .500 season.

- They were #5 in yards, Fred. You should get a temporary ban for all of the trolling you do. You took a specific sliver of a statistical category and are putting it out there as an overall rating. Why don't you just list what they ranked in turn overs and say that's their overall defensive ranking, too? Or sacks? Does this work in the backwoods hills you allegedly practice law in?

The Redskins were #21 in points allowed meaning they ranked 21st in overall/total defense. As Marvin, Guenther, and Zimmer have all pointed out in previous interviews: Points allowed is the king stat on D. There is no close 2nd. To bring up yards is just trolling and being contrarian. Strangly, Fred, in 2001 the Redskins D was ranked 13th overall http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2001/opp.htm and then Marvin showed up for one season in 2002 and they dropped like a rock down to 21st http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2002/opp.htm

- Marvin Lewis was given incredible talent in Baltimore through FA signings and the draft and that talent kept the Ravens D strong for over a decade regardless of who was coordinating it. You actually think that because of Marvin Lewis being there in 2001, for example, that that influenced the defense in 2011? You've become delusional and, IMO, need a break from the forum for a while. They quit running the conventional 4-3 that Marvin ran many YEARS AGO and went to a hybrid and then a 3-4. It wasn't even the same scheme. Here, since you like to read so much (apparently about anything BUT the football topics you like to babble about) enjoy the 2nd paragraph http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybrid

- Other people already swatted away the fart cloud of nonsense you spewed out championing how good the Redskins and Vikings were before Gruden & Zimmer. SO good they fired their coaches. 

- Marvin Lewis hasn't been battling the demons of the 90's now for well over a decade, Fred. That garbage left the Bengals organization 14 years ago. And, after Carson publicly took a dump all over him and Mike Brown, the organization finally changed for the better. That was more of a function of Carson's public shaming for their failures more than it is a product of an average coach achieving a shade above mediocrity year after year. We all appreciated him taking a team loaded with talent to the brink of "Gasp" almost winning a single playoff game, but he ran out of goodwill from that years ago.

- Honestly, you turn almost every thread on these forums into a virtual troll fest of a shit sandwich - all centered around you. I hope a mod takes a half hour to go through oh, I don't know, the current 2 pages of topics to take a look at how they all end up centered around you basically trolling and taking a virtual dump in them and at least considers a temporary vacation for you so you can focus on your personal life and get your head straight.

[jowczarski]

Didn't want to start a whole new thread on this but frankly, Jason Cole's report wasn't true:
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2016/04/07/cincinnati-bengals-nothing-to-marvin-lewis-impatience/82766048/

And, he backpedaled a bit today on Sirius XM telling Ross Tucker he thinks the Bengals will give Lewis an extension.

I don't know Jason but he's been doing this a long time and obviously he felt good enough in what he had and from whom to go with that, but ... he may have been mislead slightly. Maybe it means Marvin will have to coach out the year like he did back in 2010, but that's a little different than the context he put that in.

[NATI BENGALS]

So impatient that they gave him another year extension.

[OBX Bengal]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000651626/article/marvin-lewis-bengals-agree-to-extension

[TKUHL]

SOAB! I told a friend last night that all this was just code for Extension.

[WeezyBengal]

Guess we can all make fun of the d bag that wrote this article now. Wonder who his "sources" were?

[Aquapod770]

(04-08-2016, 11:12 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Guess we can all make fun of the d bag that wrote this article now. Wonder who his "sources" were?

Plot twist...



Marvin was the source. It was his clever ploy into tricking the organization into giving him an extension. 

[Shake n Blake]

(04-08-2016, 02:06 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: No, I agree with what you and OB say. I just don't really think 'QB controversy' accurately describes the situation to what Jay walked into. I guess it's just my contrarian nature. 

I give Marvin credit for turning this franchise around regardless of who he had on the roster. I can't say things woulda been different if any other coach were hired. I do know how things were right up to the point Marvin first stepped onto the field. For that, I don't see how he doesn't deserve credit. So for me, that counts as 1 build.

 Around 08/09 I give him credit for a rebuild because this team was falling apart. I realize many may not agree. But at least agree that despite all the chaos in those days, Marvin managed to hold it together and even squeeze into the playoffs a coupla times. Yeah there was still talent on the roster but looking back at it its a wonder the wheels didn't fall completely off, like they eventually did. 

 I don't know, I just think those few years were crazy and he managed to keep it together, so That's 2.  

Of course he gets credit for This 3rd and our current era. 

Obviously I don't totally agree, but I respect your opinion. I think this last reboot is the one he deserves the most credit for, but even then, I think a lot of people give too much credit to Marv and not enough to those around him. Tobin deserves a lot of praise for finding gems like Atkins, MJ, Iloka and Marv Jones in later rounds. 

And as I pointed out, I think the Bengals started drafting better before Marv arrived. I just don't think the turnaround should be 100% credited to Marv. Think about this: we hired Duke Tobin in 1999. By 2003, we really started seeing the benefits of his first few drafts.

[fredtoast]

(04-08-2016, 05:25 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - They were #5 in yards, Fred. You should get a temporary ban for all of the trolling you do. You took a specific sliver of a statistical category and are putting it out there as an overall rating. Why don't you just list what they ranked in turn overs and say that's their overall defensive ranking, too? Or sacks? Does this work in the backwoods hills you allegedly practice law in?

The Redskins were #21 in points allowed meaning they ranked 21st in overall/total defense. As Marvin, Guenther, and Zimmer have all pointed out in previous interviews: Points allowed is the king stat on D. There is no close 2nd. To bring up yards is just trolling and being contrarian. Strangly, Fred, in 2001 the Redskins D was ranked 13th overall http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2001/opp.htm and then Marvin showed up for one season in 2002 and they dropped like a rock down to 21st http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2002/opp.htm

Redskins defense was 11th in rushing tds allowed and 9th in passing tds allowed.  They ranked so low in scoring defense becaue they allowed 6 non-offensove tds.  

The defensive numbers were also skewed because the Redskins offense was 30th in the league in turning the ball over and the kick coverage teams were among the worst in the league.  The Redskins opponents average drive started at their own 35.5 yard line which was dead last in the league.

But I still think you find it funny that I use the exact same stat that the NFL uses to rank total defense.  And no matter how you spin it claiming that Marvin Lewsi "stunk it up" in Washington shows nothing but a blind hatred instead of a logical analysis.

[fredtoast]

(04-08-2016, 05:25 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - Other people already swatted away the fart cloud of nonsense you spewed out championing how good the Redskins and Vikings were before Gruden & Zimmer. SO good they fired their coaches.   

 

I have seen nothing that shows in any wya that Marvin took over a better team than either Zimmer or Gruden.  never said they were great teams.  Just showing that they were in better shape than the bengals team that marvin inherited.

[fredtoast]

(04-08-2016, 05:25 PM)PDub80 Wrote: And, after Carson publicly took a dump all over him and Mike Brown, the organization finally changed for the better. That was more of a function of Carson's public shaming for their failures more than it is a product of an average coach achieving a shade above mediocrity year after year.

This is complete gibberish.  

The only "public shaming" was of Carson.  The Bengals were the ones who came out of that looking good while Carson was considered a clown.  We have been much better since he left.

[fredtoast]

(04-08-2016, 05:25 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - Honestly, you turn almost every thread on these forums into a virtual troll fest of a shit sandwich - all centered around you. I hope a mod takes a half hour to go through oh, I don't know, the current 2 pages of topics to take a look at how they all end up centered around you basically trolling and taking a virtual dump in them and at least considers a temporary vacation for you so you can focus on your personal life and get your head straight.

You are the one losing your shit, not me.


Maybe YOU need a break.

[tlotharw]

They are growing impatient and extended his contract.

[BengalChris]

(04-09-2016, 12:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Obviously I don't totally agree, but I respect your opinion. I think this last reboot is the one he deserves the most credit for, but even then, I think a lot of people give too much credit to Marv and not enough to those around him. Tobin deserves a lot of praise for finding gems like Atkins, MJ, Iloka and Marv Jones in later rounds. 

And as I pointed out, I think the Bengals started drafting better before Marv arrived. I just don't think the turnaround should be 100% credited to Marv. Think about this: we hired Duke Tobin in 1999. By 2003, we really started seeing the benefits of his first few drafts.

For one thing Marvin had to get Mikey B to change his ways. I assure you that did not happen over night.

Remember, Mikey over ruled Bruce Coslet and rejected New Orleans trade offer for Ricky Williams so he could draft one year wonder Akili Smith. That was less than four years before the Bengals hired Marvin Lewis.

Mikey had a long, long history of bad, bad football decisions from drafts to free agency to player relations to grading his coaches, and he behaved more like someone who buries their head in the sand and hopes for best when facing a hurricane.

I'm impressed that Marv got him to change at all. No one did before him.

All of that said, I've grown impatient.