Bengals Ownership Growing Impatient with Marvin Lewis

[*Nately120*]

(04-10-2016, 10:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is complete gibberish.  

The only "public shaming" was of Carson.  The Bengals were the ones who came out of that looking good while Carson was considered a clown.  We have been much better since he left.

How can a guy who uses regular season success as a metric to praise the Bengals actually think a QB who had a near-MVP season, went 13-3, and had the #1 offense in 2015 leaving is a reason we got "much better?"  Hell, Palmer has been regular-season gold for the past 2 years.

Lord knows we can't hold his playoff meltdown against him, because something something. 

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2016, 11:04 AM)Nately120 Wrote: How can a guy who uses regular season success as a metric to praise the Bengals actually think a QB who had a near-MVP season, went 13-3, and had the #1 offense in 2015 leaving is a reason we got "much better?"  Hell, Palmer has been regular-season gold for the past 2 years.

Lord knows we can't hold his playoff meltdown against him, because something something. 

The year Palmer left we more than doubled our win total (4 to 9)

In the five years since Palmer left we have won 42% more games than the 5 years before he left (52 to 33)

Since Palmer left he has gone 37-25 as a starter (.597%) while Dalton has won .656% of his starts (50-26-1)

[Shake n Blake]

(04-11-2016, 02:30 AM)BengalChris Wrote: For one thing Marvin had to get Mikey B to change his ways. I assure you that did not happen over night.

Remember, Mikey over ruled Bruce Coslet and rejected New Orleans trade offer for Ricky Williams so he could draft one year wonder Akili Smith. That was less than four years before the Bengals hired Marvin Lewis.

Mikey had a long, long history of bad, bad football decisions from drafts to free agency to player relations to grading his coaches, and he behaved more like someone who buries their head in the sand and hopes for best when facing a hurricane.

I'm impressed that Marv got him to change at all. No one did before him.

All of that said, I've grown impatient.

Marvin changing Mike has been the narrative all these years, but none of us really know what goes on behind the scenes.

Fwiw, Duke Tobin was hired in '99 took his current role in 2002. You could argue that this was the biggest move Mike made. Our 2001 draft is still possibly the best we've ever had and it really set Marv up nicely. Add in the no-brainer selection of Carson Palmer and Marv had a nice collection of players to start with.

I'm not saying Marv deserves no credit, but sometimes I think Tobin doesn't get enough. Our success has completely coincided with Tobin serving that quasi-GM role.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/2/24/11099216/duke-tobin-doesnt-need-gm-title-to-know-his-worth-with-bengals

[wolfkaosaun]

(04-10-2016, 10:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote:  

I have seen nothing that shows in any wya that Marvin took over a better team than either Zimmer or Gruden.  never said they were great teams.  Just showing that they were in better shape than the bengals team that marvin inherited.

Ummmm how?
Rudi Johnson, Chad Johnson, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Levi Jones, Willie Anderson, Takeo Spikes, Brian Simmons, and Corey Dillon.

And those are just a few guys. There were building blocks already there. Gruden and Zimmer both have had some building blocks but ultimately have also had to do what Marvin did. Get a franchise QB and build around him. Granted, Gruden had Cousins on his roster but choosing him over RGIII was a big move to make.

Marvin did some great things, but let's not act like he built it completely from scratch.

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2016, 03:25 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Ummmm how?
Rudi Johnson, Chad Johnson, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Levi Jones, Willie Anderson, Takeo Spikes, Brian Simmons, and Corey Dillon.

And those are just a few guys. There were building blocks already there. Gruden and Zimmer both have had some building blocks but ultimately have also had to do what Marvin did. Get a franchise QB and build around him. Granted, Gruden had Cousins on his roster but choosing him over RGIII was a big move to make.

Marvin did some great things, but let's not act like he built it completely from scratch.

Not only did Marvin inherit the team with the worst record in the league, but before he coached his first game he lost the best player from his defense (Spikes), and the best player on his offense (Dillon) basically quit on the team (541 yards, 3.9 avg in '02).

He had a core (5-6) solid players on offense, but only 2 players from the '02 defense (Justin Smith, Brian Simmons) were still around when we finally had a winning record in '05.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-11-2016, 03:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not only did Marvin inherit the team with the worst record in the league, but before he coached his first game he lost the best player from his defense (Spikes), and the best player on his offense (Dillon) basically quit on the team (541 yards, 3.9 avg in '02).

He had a core (5-6) solid players on offense, but only 2 players from the '02 defense (Justin Smith, Brian Simmons) were still around when we finally had a winning record in '05.

You're ignoring the fact that a 2-14 team can still have talented young players on it. Some of these players (Rudi and TJ for instance) weren't contributing much yet, but that doesn't mean the talent wasn't there. These players blossoming just coincided with Marv's hiring.

Btw, Corey didn't quit the team. The poor numbers were largely thanks to injury. That's why Rudi was able to take over in the first place.

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2016, 07:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You're ignoring the fact that a 2-14 team can still have talented young players on it. Some of these players (Rudi and TJ for instance) weren't contributing much yet, but that doesn't mean the talent wasn't there. These players blossoming just coincided with Marv's hiring.

Btw, Corey didn't quit the team. The poor numbers were largely thanks to injury. That's why Rudi was able to take over in the first place.

It is pointless to even argue this with you.  You just rig everything to fit your opinion.  How convenient for you that it is just random coincidence that certain players blossomed when Marvin showed up.

And I am so certain that if Palmer had been a complete bust you would never have placed any blame on Marvin at all.

Marvin got 2 starters on defense and 6 on offense.  Five of them were Pro Bowl players (Chad, Rudi, TJ, Willie, Justin)

Mike Zimmer inherited 12 of his 2015 starters including six Pro Bowl players (TE Kyle Rudolph, OT Matt Kalil, DE Everson Griffen, LB Chad Greenway, FS Harrison Smith, and the greatest RB in the league in Adrian Peterson).

Gruden inherited only 9 starters but they include four Pro Bowl players (QB Kirk Cousins, RB Alfred Morris, LT Trent Williams, DE/LB Ryan Kerrigan)

Marvin really didn't get more talent that either of those guys.

[*Nately120*]

(04-11-2016, 11:38 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The year Palmer left we more than doubled our win total (4 to 9)

In the five years since Palmer left we have won 42% more games than the 5 years before he left (52 to 33)

Since Palmer left he has gone 37-25 as a starter (.597%) while Dalton has won .656% of his starts (50-26-1)

Let's live in the now.  Palmer was 13-3 this year, got a 1st round bye, won a playoff game, AND got the chance to meltdown in the conference championship game.  Let's just face the fact that Marvin Lewis got to spend his entire HC career (minus the Kitna development year) with 2 of the better QBs to play in the NFL for a decade or so and he got neither jack nor crap out of them.

I'm not saying Palmer is better than Dalton so much as I'm saying that this guy who "made us better by leaving" just made a different NFL team better than the 2015 Bengals by being there.  Dalton and Palmer both looked great this year, and that just makes me bend that to my agenda of thinking Marvin Lewis severely underachieves.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2016, 01:43 AM)Nately120 Wrote:   Let's just face the fact that Marvin Lewis got to spend his entire HC career (minus the Kitna development year) with 2 of the better QBs to play in the NFL for a decade or so and he got neither jack nor crap out of them.

Lets face the fact that since Dalton arrived the Bengals have been one of the top 6-7 teams in the league while Dalton has not been that highly rated as a QB over that stretch.

And the fact that Palmer finally won one playoff game at age 36 does not suddenly mean that Marvin was a bad coach 12 years ago.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-11-2016, 08:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1. It is pointless to even argue this with you.  You just rig everything to fit your opinion.  How convenient for you that it is just random coincidence that certain players blossomed when Marvin showed up.

2. And I am so certain that if Palmer had been a complete bust you would never have placed any blame on Marvin at all.

1. It's not some "random convenient coincidence" that young players often take a leap in their 2nd and 3rd seasons. 

2. When all else fails, make stuff up.

[*Nately120*]

(04-12-2016, 10:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lets face the fact that since Dalton arrived the Bengals have been one of the top 6-7 teams in the league while Dalton has not been that highly rated as a QB over that stretch.

And the fact that Palmer finally won one playoff game at age 36 does not suddenly mean that Marvin was a bad coach 12 years ago.

Meh, Palmer got 2 legit shots at a playoff win and got to the conference championship at the age of 36.  Marvin Lewis has had 7 chances (maybe 6 if you consider losing Palmer as a hopeless situation in 2005) and he's never even lucked his way past the wild card round.  One time in 7 tries we came "close" to winning, so there is that.

Bruce Arians got more out of a short window, post-second ACL tear 36 year old Palmer than Marvin got out of the guy when he was a no-brainer #1 overall pick in his prime.  Then again, other than 2005 Palmer has only flirted with relevance when he has an offensive-minded HC in Hue and Arians, so maybe that just has that much more of an impact for him.  

Do I think Marvin is a bad coach?  Well, who knows...but I think he's got some pretty obvious flaws BUT he's operating under a less then ideal owner and pulling double-duty as a pseudo-GM so what can you do?  I do think it is fair to see Palmer and Dalton's long-term viability in the NFL as a knock against Marvin given his lack of post-season success.  Additionally, I would bet my left nut that Marvin wouldn't have done a thing with any of the QBs Lebeau and Coslet had to implement. Toss in the scenario where we don't have Jay Gruden talking Mikey out of drafting Krapernick or Mallllettt and you have another argument that Marvin barely dodged disaster.

So, this isn't a Dalton vs. Palmer thing so much as me "wondering" why a team that has 2 decent QBs over a span of 13 years can't break through an obvious ceiling.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2016, 11:34 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. It's not some "random convenient coincidence" that young players often take a leap in their 2nd and 3rd seasons. 

Really?

Please list all the Pro Bowl RBs with multiple 1000 yard seasons who had only 17 carries over their first two seasons.

I honestly can not think of a single one other than Rudi.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2016, 12:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: , other than 2005 Palmer has only flirted with relevance when he has an offensive-minded HC in Hue and Arians, so maybe that just has that much more of an impact for him.  

So Carson did not even "flirt with relevance" in '06 when he finished 2nd in tds, 5th in yards, and 6th in passer rating, but he was amazing in '15 when he finished 2nd in tds, 4th in yards, and 3rd in passer rating?

And of course Carson was "flirting with relevance" when he had the great offensive minded Hue Jackson as a head coach throwing 13 tds and 16 interceptions while going 4-5 as a starter.

No bias there at all, right?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Fred will probably deny this, but it took him 2-3 years after a Brat was fired to admit his play calling could be predictable.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2016, 01:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Fred will probably deny this, but it took him 2-3 years after a Brat was fired to admit his play calling could be predictable.

And you will never admit that when ai challenged people to tell me how they predicted Brat's play calling they could never explain how they did it.  All I would get was stuff like "We throw on third and long a lot of times" or "We run a shovel pass once a game."

Brat's play calling was never any more predictable than any other OC in the league.  I proved that over and over again with actual facts.

Brat's weakness was that he could not generate a running attack without using an extra O-lineman.

[Derrick]

(04-07-2016, 04:01 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Hobson and the beat guys have said that Guenther has a lot of fans within organization. They view him as a major up and comer in terms of being a HC. That's why I think he'll get the job. The FO sees this team as a good team, so why change? Guenther would take over and probably have very few changes to the coaching staff.

WOW! I think I have seen this movie several times before in Bengal history

[*Nately120*]

(04-12-2016, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So Carson did not even "flirt with relevance" in '06 when he finished 2nd in tds, 5th in yards, and 6th in passer rating, but he was amazing in '15 when he finished 2nd in tds, 4th in yards, and 3rd in passer rating?

And of course Carson was "flirting with relevance" when he had the great offensive minded Hue Jackson as a head coach throwing 13 tds and 16 interceptions while going 4-5 as a starter.

No bias there at all, right?

I'm talking about the teams flirting with relevance as in making the playoffs...you know, the only thing that truly matters to supporters of Marvin Lewis?  Regardless of Carson's stats, if the Raiders make one 99.5 yard TD drive stop then the Raiders make the playoffs and probably go one-n-done, and if the Raiders are like the Bengals I guess they call that season a resounding success.

Carson's ghastly statline in Oakland in 2011 includes a 3 INT game where he wasn't even supposed to play and knew nothing of the playbook, and a 29th ranked Chuckie B defense.  His performances mostly looked better than his stats, ala Dalton in 2014.  Anyways, we've discussed Carson to death here, so I'll just offer to agree to disagree.

[BengalChris]

(04-11-2016, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Marvin changing Mike has been the narrative all these years, but none of us really know what goes on behind the scenes.

Fwiw, Duke Tobin was hired in '99 took his current role in 2002. You could argue that this was the biggest move Mike made. Our 2001 draft is still possibly the best we've ever had and it really set Marv up nicely. Add in the no-brainer selection of Carson Palmer and Marv had a nice collection of players to start with.

I'm not saying Marv deserves no credit, but sometimes I think Tobin doesn't get enough. Our success has completely coincided with Tobin serving that quasi-GM role.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/2/24/11099216/duke-tobin-doesnt-need-gm-title-to-know-his-worth-with-bengals

I see your point. Don't know who's idea it was to hire Tobin and then promote him.

The front office appears to be in good hands now, unlike in the 90's. And I do believe we will survive any coaching change well. There's enough pieces in place where the coach will have a stable front office to work with.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-12-2016, 01:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And you will never admit that when ai challenged people to tell me how they predicted Brat's play calling they could never explain how they did it.  All I would get was stuff like "We throw on third and long a lot of times" or "We run a shovel pass once a game."

Brat's play calling was never any more predictable than any other OC in the league.  I proved that over and over again with actual facts.

Brat's weakness was that he could not generate a running attack without using an extra O-lineman.

Do you think personnel groupings could telegraph whether the call was a run or pass and that knowledge could benefit the defense?

If the defense could predict pass or run based upon personnel, does that make the play calling predictable?

If Alexander is as good as you claim, shouldn't the blocking schemes generate a better running attack without the extra OL? Wouldn't that failure fall more upon the shoulders of the O line coach?

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2016, 12:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote:   Then again, other than 2005 Palmer has only flirted with relevance when he has an offensive-minded HC in Hue and Arians, so maybe that just has that much more of an impact for him.  

(04-12-2016, 02:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm talking about the teams flirting with relevance as in making the playoffs...you know, the only thing that truly matters to supporters of Marvin Lewis?

I am sorry.  I know you like to make stuff up in order to make reality fit your opinion, but I did not realize that in your fantasy world Carson did not make the playoffs with the Bengals in '09, but did make the playoffs with Hue in '11.