B/R ranks Bengals QB supporting cast #1

[yellowxdiscipline]

#1 supporting cast should be enough to allow Dalton to take this team far. We'll see if that happens.

[Interceptor]

(06-23-2015, 08:43 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: #1 supporting cast should be enough to allow Dalton to take this team far. We'll see if that happens.

Or any QB.

Offense won't go far with a QB who can't make certain throws and a coaching staff that makes the wrong calls.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-22-2015, 08:11 PM)Stormborn Wrote: http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2497811-power-ranking-every-nfl-quarterbacks-supporting-cast

... I really don't care what the article says, or that's is by the Bleacher Report, I just wanted my first thread to be inevitable chaos of idiotic proportions. Don't let me down usual suspects.

The Bengals offensive line is overrated on this measure and the WRs are WAY overrated. 

The list lost all credibility when it ranked the Raiders above the Broncos, but at least the Raider fans have something to look at where they are ranked ahead of them. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-22-2015, 09:49 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Prior to Andy Dalton coming to cincinnati, everyone would love that people are giving our offense props but since many of the hardcore homers have put Dalton on a pedestal they probably will claim the article is wack and our offense isn't really that good. They will then make excuses for Dalton to ensure that the reason the Bengals are mediocre on offense is because of the coach, injuries, players, weather, etc.

I doubt it.  Most "hardcore homers" as you refer to them understand that offensively, Dalton has not come close to having this roster in any of the playoff games.  They also have the intelligence that you have this entire other half of your team that must perform in the postseason as well to have any chance of winning. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-23-2015, 12:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Matt Ryan had the #2 running game in the entire league his rookie season.

Last year was the first time Dalton had had a running game that ranked higher than 22nd in yards per carry, but his receiving corps was busted up with injuries.

And with Roddy White, Julio Jones, and (for a few years) Tony Gonzalez....yeah, Matt Ryan has no supporting cast and plays in such an incredibly tough division (sarcasm..the defenses at Tampa and New Orleans are a joke)

[djs7685]

(06-23-2015, 11:14 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: And with Roddy White, Julio Jones, and (for a few years) Tony Gonzalez....yeah, Matt Ryan has no supporting cast and plays in such an incredibly tough division (sarcasm..the defenses at Tampa and New Orleans are a joke)

I don't think anyone has ever said that Matt Ryan hasn't had good receiving targets.

There wasn't always tons of depth, but Jones, White, Douglas, Gonzalez, Turner, Rodgers was a solid lineup in 2011-2012.

61.3 completion percentage, 4,177 yards, 7.38 YPA, 29 TD, 12 INT, 92.2 rating
68.6 completion percentage, 4,719 yards, 7.67 YPA, 32 TD, 14 INT, 99.1 rating

That was behind a mediocre line.

I think Andy SHOULD be able to end the year with a statline between those 2 years from Matt Ryan if the team stays relatively healthy. I don't think he has any excuse not to in 2015 unless Hill rushes for the 3,000 yards that some people think he will. Realistically, I don't think it should be asking a lot from Andy to have similar statistics to 2011-2012 Matt Ryan assuming a healthy team. The supporting casts are definitely on par with one another. Hopefully we'll see if the QBs are with no excuses this year.

[*Nately120*]

(06-23-2015, 11:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I doubt it.  Most "hardcore homers" as you refer to them understand that offensively, Dalton has not come close to having this roster in any of the playoff games.  They also have the intelligence that you have this entire other half of your team that must perform in the postseason as well to have any chance of winning. 

Meh, ida know...I recall some of the talking heads blathering on about the Bengals having one of, if not THE most talented rosters in the NFL going into 2014 and few people around here (or on the old board) were bending over backwards to discredit them.  I'll admit #1 is a bit much, but I thought the consensus around here was that we've had a top-talent kind of team for a while.  People scrambling to say we aren't #1 a week after getting their panties in a bunch that the experts weren't orgasming over Hill and Bernard like we are is just...interesting.

[BengalChris]

(06-23-2015, 02:09 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But he had Julio Jones, Roddy White , and Tony Gonzales.

Which means it's all on Matt Ryan's arm while he's being chased around the pocket. No defense either.

[fredtoast]

(06-23-2015, 12:22 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Which means it's all on Matt Ryan's arm while he's being chased around the pocket. No defense either.

Atlanta has twice had a top 5 defense while Ryan was there.

And it is easier for a QB to make plays when his receivers get open more often.

[CornerBlitz]

Regardless of whether we are ranked #1 or #4, the bottom line is that we have a very talented offense. There is no excuse for our mediocre performances. The QB needs to play much better.

[OSUfan]

(06-22-2015, 09:49 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Prior to Andy Dalton coming to cincinnati, everyone would love that people are giving our offense props but since many of the hardcore homers have put Dalton on a pedestal they probably will claim the article is wack and our offense isn't really that good. They will then make excuses for Dalton to ensure that the reason the Bengals are mediocre on offense is because of the coach, injuries, players, weather, etc.

Your hatred gets more idiotic each and every day.

[OSUfan]

(06-23-2015, 04:51 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Regardless of whether we are ranked #1 or #4, the bottom line is that we have a very talented offense. There is no excuse for our mediocre performances. The QB needs to play much better.

Yes he does right along with the entire rest of the team...........

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-23-2015, 11:46 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I don't think anyone has ever said that Matt Ryan hasn't had good receiving targets.

There wasn't always tons of depth, but Jones, White, Douglas, Gonzalez, Turner, Rodgers was a solid lineup in 2011-2012.

61.3 completion percentage, 4,177 yards, 7.38 YPA, 29 TD, 12 INT, 92.2 rating
68.6 completion percentage, 4,719 yards, 7.67 YPA, 32 TD, 14 INT, 99.1 rating

That was behind a mediocre line.

I think Andy SHOULD be able to end the year with a statline between those 2 years from Matt Ryan if the team stays relatively healthy. I don't think he has any excuse not to in 2015 unless Hill rushes for the 3,000 yards that some people think he will. Realistically, I don't think it should be asking a lot from Andy to have similar statistics to 2011-2012 Matt Ryan assuming a healthy team. The supporting casts are definitely on par with one another. Hopefully we'll see if the QBs are with no excuses this year.

I agree that Dalton could come very close to those numbers this season.  He is getting back his #1 TE, his #1 WR in terms of YAC, and his offensive line should be intact with solid depth.  And I shouldn't forget to mention the potentially three headed monster of Hill, Bernard, and Burkhead.

Your stats from Matt Ryan made me think about his game last year in Cincy.  After torching the Saints for 400+ yards and several TDS, he came to Cincy and went 24/44 for 231 yards with 1TD and 3INTs.

That same day, despite losing AJ Green early (who was held without a catch), Dalton went 15/23 for 252 yards with 1TD and zero INTs.

This illustrates perfectly my earlier point about opposing defenses.  The Bengals face the Browns (hey, they have good CBs and a solid defense) twice, putzburg twice, and the ratbirds twice.  Ryan gets Carolina twice (they're good), but also four games against the Saints and Bucs.  That is one fourth of the schedule where Dalton will deal with a pass rush that Ryan will not, despite his less-talented offensive line.

Just like I have said before, when Dalton is kept clean (which seems to be in direct relation to his offensive line having all their starters) he picks teams apart. 

[djs7685]

(06-24-2015, 09:23 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Just like I have said before, when Dalton is kept clean (which seems to be in direct relation to his offensive line having all their starters) he picks teams apart. 

Which NFL QB does this not apply to? I'm just saying, most QBs "pick teams apart" when they have a completely clean pocket. You can't expect it to always be clean though, no offensive line in the history of the league has a 100% success rate, guys are playing defense for a reason.

It's also not always the case though with Andy picking teams apart when clean. These are stats with only passes where Andy had no pressure at all...

IND - 16/29, 55.2% completion, 91 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 3.1 YPA
CLE1 - 8/24, 33.3% completion, 60 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT, 2.5 YPA

Sometimes Andy just seems "off" even when he isn't being pressured, and that is probably his biggest issue with his bad games being SO bad.

I think we do agree that Andy's success does rely heavily on keeping him upright because throughout his career he's always been average or worse (usually pretty bad) under pressure. Luckily, his quick release along with the offensive line's ability to pass protect has kept him clean more than almost any other QB in the league over the last 4 years.

Andy needs everyone around him healthy, he needs to improve a little bit under pressure, and he needs to not have his bad games be SO bad. If those things happen, I don't see why he couldn't have a career year with the Bengals winning a playoff game or two. I have some amount of faith in Andy even though I don't think he's a good QB right now.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-24-2015, 09:43 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Which NFL QB does this not apply to? I'm just saying, most QBs "pick teams apart" when they have a completely clean pocket. You can't expect it to always be clean though, no offensive line in the history of the league has a 100% success rate, guys are playing defense for a reason.

It's also not always the case though with Andy picking teams apart when clean. These are stats with only passes where Andy had no pressure at all...

IND - 16/29, 55.2% completion, 91 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 3.1 YPA
CLE1 - 8/24, 33.3% completion, 60 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT, 2.5 YPA

Sometimes Andy just seems "off" even when he isn't being pressured, and that is probably his biggest issue with his bad games being SO bad.

I think we do agree that Andy's success does rely heavily on keeping him upright because throughout his career he's always been average or worse (usually pretty bad) under pressure. Luckily, his quick release along with the offensive line's ability to pass protect has kept him clean more than almost any other QB in the league over the last 4 years.

Andy needs everyone around him healthy, he needs to improve a little bit under pressure, and he needs to not have his bad games be SO bad. If those things happen, I don't see why he couldn't have a career year with the Bengals winning a playoff game or two. I have some amount of faith in Andy even though I don't think he's a good QB right now.

I'm not sure where you are getting that he had no pressure on these passes.  He was sacked six times in those two games, and he didn't have AJ Green for either of them as well.  They were kind of playoff previews of what he would be dealing with. 

I guess I should have included "and he has at least one WR that can generate an ounce of separation".  If you still have access to the Colts/Bengals playoff game, watch it again.  I know, take some antacid first, but watch it.  He had to fit the ball in to the tiniest of windows.  He was doing it as well, but it really tells the story of what you don't see happen to many other QBs.  I am always amazed at the separation of the WRs that putzburg gets against opposing defenses. I think Todd Haley is a genius as a coordinator.  He may act like an ass clown, but his route designs are amazing.  Big Jen hardly every has an opposing DB in the screen with his WRs.  Most of his INTs come off tipped passes. 

Back to original subject:  Although you can simplify my statement about being kept clean to "every QB can do that", but maybe you should be asking yourself "What QB has to deal with that in the playoffs?"  Luck sure didn't against the Bengals and Broncos.  Brady never seems to have to deal with it except for two losses to the Giants.  Again, not asking for perfection, but if you don't take in to account the pressure he was under or even the lack of weapons he had in those games, then you might as well just hate him for being a redhead. 

[djs7685]

(06-24-2015, 05:26 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I'm not sure where you are getting that he had no pressure on these passes.  He was sacked six times in those two games, and he didn't have AJ Green for either of them as well.  They were kind of playoff previews of what he would be dealing with. 

I didn't post his full stat line for each of those games.

What I posted were his passes in those games where he was under no pressure.

Andy was usually pretty good while under no pressure last year, but I was showing that he still has his confusing moments at times. He surely wasn't picking anyone apart in those two games, even when he wasn't being hurried or hit. When he's having a bad day, it's usually BAD. Hopefully he can do something about that.

[*bengalfan74*]

#1 ??

I'm not so sure they're all that. I do however believe - "on paper" we're in the upper 1/3, maybe 1/4. But no matter where you want to put us.

We gotta do it on the field !

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-24-2015, 05:46 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I didn't post his full stat line for each of those games.

What I posted were his passes in those games where he was under no pressure.

Andy was usually pretty good while under no pressure last year, but I was showing that he still has his confusing moments at times. He surely wasn't picking anyone apart in those two games, even when he wasn't being hurried or hit. When he's having a bad day, it's usually BAD. Hopefully he can do something about that.

Maybe that is some PFF stat for QBs (hurries, hits, etc), but you ignore the point about no AJ Green or any WRs that could get separation.  Again, I am just trying to get you to look at the big picture and not just Dalton himself.  I am not trying to say he is top 5, "elite", etc., but what I have seen from him when he is kept clean and he has some weapons is that he can be very, very good. 

For the two games you mention where his ratings were abysmal, I could point out many more where his ratings were phenomenal.  You tend to focus on the two really bad games and two really bad postseason games and label him a dud.  I look at the 40 wins (and that one GD tie that STILL sticks in my craw) in four seasons and think that with a solid TE, WR, and RB corps that he can, in fact, win a Super Bowl. 

[djs7685]

(06-25-2015, 10:20 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Maybe that is some PFF stat for QBs (hurries, hits, etc), but you ignore the point about no AJ Green or any WRs that could get separation.  Again, I am just trying to get you to look at the big picture and not just Dalton himself.  I am not trying to say he is top 5, "elite", etc., but what I have seen from him when he is kept clean and he has some weapons is that he can be very, very good. 

For the two games you mention where his ratings were abysmal, I could point out many more where his ratings were phenomenal.  You tend to focus on the two really bad games and two really bad postseason games and label him a dud.  I look at the 40 wins (and that one GD tie that STILL sticks in my craw) in four seasons and think that with a solid TE, WR, and RB corps that he can, in fact, win a Super Bowl. 

Where did I ever label him a dud? That's just flat out lying, I've never said he was a bad QB or a "dud".

When did I only focus on those 2 games? I was just showing you statistics that went against your theory. He doesn't always "pick teams apart" when he's kept clean, that's false. I don't dwell on just 2 games of a guy's entire career, that's not my thing, I was just using it as an example to show that he's not always on point even when he's not pressured. Please don't act like 2 of my posts show what I'm "focused on".

Yes, he's not bad without pressure, but most NFL caliber QBs aren't bad without pressure. That's why I can't give Andy too much of a pat on the back for doing something that isn't extraordinary for someone in his position. A starting NFL QB should have decent stats without pressure by the defense.

If you surround him with an extremely talented team or he happens to go on an October 2013-esque tear in the playoffs, I do believe he can be a SB winning quarterback. I've never said otherwise. I just don't know how likely it is for him to do that. If we have injuries on offense, I'm not confident that he can rally the troops and overcome that to win playoff games. I could be wrong, but history is on my side here. You're basing your opinions off of your personal hopes and wishes, I'm basing my opinions off of facts and past events. 40 wins is a team stat, I can't take you seriously if you won't look at individual accomplishments when discussing an individual player. If you want to talk about the Bengals as a whole, yes, 40 wins is great. W/L doesn't belong to a single player.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-25-2015, 10:29 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Where did I ever label him a dud? That's just flat out lying, I've never said he was a bad QB or a "dud".

When did I only focus on those 2 games? I was just showing you statistics that went against your theory. He doesn't always "pick teams apart" when he's kept clean, that's false. I don't dwell on just 2 games of a guy's entire career, that's not my thing, I was just using it as an example to show that he's not always on point even when he's not pressured. Please don't act like 2 of my posts show what I'm "focused on".

Yes, he's not bad without pressure, but most NFL caliber QBs aren't bad without pressure. That's why I can't give Andy too much of a pat on the back for doing something that isn't extraordinary for someone in his position. A starting NFL QB should have decent stats without pressure by the defense.

If you surround him with an extremely talented team or he happens to go on an October 2013-esque tear in the playoffs, I do believe he can be a SB winning quarterback. I've never said otherwise. I just don't know how likely it is for him to do that. If we have injuries on offense, I'm not confident that he can rally the troops and overcome that to win playoff games. I could be wrong, but history is on my side here. You're basing your opinions off of your personal hopes and wishes, I'm basing my opinions off of facts and past events. 40 wins is a team stat, I can't take you seriously if you won't look at individual accomplishments when discussing an individual player. If you want to talk about the Bengals as a whole, yes, 40 wins is great. W/L doesn't belong to a single player.

I get the 40 wins is a team stat, but they measure it for QBs just like they do come from behind wins...and he has quite a few of those.  Regardless, to answer your question, you referred to just two games in an earlier post.  As far as your general focus goes, it seems that 95% of your time is spent bashing Dalton.  You may not have specifically called him a "dud", but when you focus on two games in his career where you claim he had "no pressure" but still had a poor performance, it shows a clear bias against him.  You neglect the point of no AJ Green, no Marvin Jones, no Tyler Eifert completely.  You also try to diminish his good play by saying that any QB can do that when he isn't pressured.  You ignore the fact that he faces three very tough defenses twice a year in his division.  How about going 2-0 against the Ravens last year?  Any credit at all?  Or are you just going to say those were team wins and he isn't a very good QB.

If the offensive line at Cleveland is so good, and they had Josh Gordon, Cameron, Andrew Hawkins, etc., why could no QB have success there?