McCarron hype gaining steam

[fredtoast]

For all of you who claim I think we don't have asingle player that needs to be replaced here is what I think of some of our players.

Bodine was a below average center last year. But since he was justr a rookie I am willing to give him another chance.

Gilberry was not very good last year, The Bengals addressed this by signing Michael johnson.

Lamur struggled last year. Since it was his first year playing at a new position I am willing to give him a chance to improve.

Geno Atkins was FAR from his usual self last year. bur since he is an All pro Talent I am willing to give him another chance.

Maualuga is not as bad as some claim, but he is very limited an should only be on the field on first downs or second/third and short yardage. He struggles in coverage.

Vinney Ray is a decent back up, but not good enough to be a starter.

Sanu is limited to playing in the slot. He is not good enough to be an outside receiver.

Dalton is not an elite talent, but good QBs are so rare he is not bad enough to be replaced. I have no problem with drafting guys like McCarron. If McCarron outplays Dalton I have no problem with him becoming the starter.

Marvin is like Dalton. He is not elite but he is to good to replace unless we have an elite replacement lined up.

[CornerBlitz]

(06-24-2015, 11:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin is like Dalton.  He is not elite but he is to good to replace unless we have an elite replacement lined up.

You're right about one thing. Marvin is like Dalton in that they will never be good enough to win a Super Bowl. Marvin hasn't won a playoff game in nearly 15 seasons and you claim and I quote "he is too good to replace".....give me a break.

[BengalChris]

(06-24-2015, 11:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: For all of you who claim I think we don't have asingle player that needs to be replaced here is what I think of some of our players.

Bodine was a below average center last year.  But since he was justr a rookie I am willing to give him another chance.

Gilberry was not very good last year,  The Bengals addressed this by signing Michael johnson.

Lamur struggled last year.  Since it was his first year playing at a new position I am willing to give him a chance to improve.

Geno Atkins was FAR from his usual self last year.  bur since he is an All pro Talent I am willing to give him another chance.

Maualuga is not as bad as some claim, but he is very limited an should only be on the field on first downs or second/third and short yardage.  He struggles in coverage.

Vinney Ray is a decent back up, but not good enough to be a starter.

Sanu is limited to playing in the slot.  He is not good enough to be an outside receiver.

Dalton is not an elite talent, but good QBs are so rare he is not bad enough to be replaced.  I have no problem with drafting guys like McCarron.  If McCarron outplays Dalton I have no problem with him becoming the starter.

Marvin is like Dalton.  He is not elite but he is to good to replace unless we have an elite replacement lined up.

I can agree with this in general. Bodine was a rookie starting at center. He should do better with a year under his belt.

Sanu will do better with Marvin Jones in the line up. Hes better than Tate as the #3, if that's what Tate was last year.

Maualuga really made the difference in the run defense last year. When he missed a couple of games, the defense just wasn't the same.

Gilberry will do better in a rotation as he did before. He's just the right guy to come off the bench.

We all pretty much expected Atkins to not be fully back last year. He's a big guy and rehab for them isn't quite the same.

It's difficult to replace an alright QB when better QBs are hard to come by. Rivers was really the only option this last off season to upgrade the position with someone who could step right in there and lead the team. But San Diego basically asked for the farm. And now they'll have him for 1 year and he'll be signing elsewhere.

[djs7685]

(06-24-2015, 11:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except for '09 Bratkowski threw the ball more on first down than most other OCs in the league.

it gets so frustrating trying to have discussions with fans who have no clue what they are talking about.

See now, we were actually going somewhere until you started unnecessary attacks again. Why do you feel that you have this superior knowledge of the game over everybody else here? I promise that you think you know more than you do. Like you told CB, just because you say something doesn't make it true. Your opinion isn't any more or less valuable than ours.

You really need to stop taking every post 100% literally, especially when you're talking to guys that aren't serious a lot of the time. When I post a one liner, it's usually not to be taken so serious by the great mighty Fred to get torn down as if I'm mentally challenged.

My jab at Brat does indicate that I don't think he was an elite coordinator, but obviously you should realize that I know more about the sport than to think ANY coordinator in the league calls "run, run, incompletion, punt". Literally zero coordinators do that, so why get all butthurt yet AGAIN over something that every single other person on the board can see that it was a tongue-in-cheek statement to take a shot at our old OC? I don't think he was completely awful, but he surely wasn't elite.

I think it's going to be funny when you meltdown trying to say that I'm an idiot because I "make stupid comments then try to pass them off as jokes!!!!!@@@11!!!". How about we look at reality, a 5 year old would realize that almost every single one liner post that I write isn't to be taken so seriously that we need to insult people over it, so who is really the stupid one here? I'd say it's the guy that can't decipher obvious jokes because he has a piss poor sense of humor when it comes to his perfect Bengals

(06-24-2015, 11:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Only problem is that you are wrong about Peko.  He can shed blockers and get t the ball carrier better than most DTs in the league.  And he does not get pushed around as badly as most people here claim.

This type pf post reminds me of all the years I have to deal with clueless fans that claimed Justion Smith was garbage and would not start for most other teams in the league.  "All he does is jump on the pile 5 yards downfield......Derp"

The only problem is that we disagree on Peko. I'm not wrong. Again, like you told CB, just because you say something doesn't make it true.

Personally, I can't stand the "clueless fans" that honestly believe Peko has been average or better over the last 2 years. FWIW, I always liked Justin Smith, he played well here so I don't know why people had an issue with him. Peko isn't a good NT though, but we don't need to go back and forth yet again on our differences.

I honestly just can't believe I even tried to be nice to such a worthless piece of shit.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-24-2015, 10:32 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, Russell Wilson played like crap, but you are failing to mention that he also threw for a TD and rushed for a TD in that game, so even in the game that proves he was carried by the rest of the team he scored twice as many TDs as Andy Dalton has in 4 postseason games.

But by all means, let's toss this example into the blender of excuses.

Russell Wilson threw 4 INTs and won a playoff game = any QB can throw 4 INTs and win
Tom Brady was taken in the 6th round = no QB can ever be doubted based on draft round
Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl = any QB can win a Super Bowl
John Elway won his first Super Bowl when he was 38 = can't count a QB out until he is eligible for AARP
Pig Ben won a Super Bowl by posting a 22.6 QB rating = a QB can play like total garbage during the biggest game and still win

Did I miss any?  I mean, if we take all these exceptions into account it's pretty obvious there is an excuse for everything a QB is or does when it comes to winning the big, or biggest games in the NFL.  A 38 year old QB taken in the 6th round can throw for 4 INTs and post a 22.6 QB rating and we can't say he deserves to lose because the Wilson/Brady/Dilfer/Elway/Pig Ben excuse applies.

Astounding.

This was some funny shit.  Rep to you.  However, you did miss the point (I think, or just avoided it) that Wilson was kept in his horrible game by his defense and special teams.  He posted a worse playoff QB rating than any from Dalton and yet, his defense didn't quit.

That was the point I was making.  Your tangent, although hilarious, was not addressing that point.  The Bengal's playoff losses have been a combination of failures at many positions:  Oline couldn't block or protect.  Defense couldn't stop the run or get pressure.  WRs couldn't get open.  QB turned the ball over.  But when you single out just Dalton, it isn't an accurate representation of what is truly happening to this team.  Blaming Dalton for the defense not being motivated is just fantasy.

[djs7685]

(06-25-2015, 10:30 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: That was the point I was making.  Your tangent, although hilarious, was not addressing that point.  The Bengal's playoff losses have been a combination of failures at many positions:  1. Oline couldn't block or protect.  Defense couldn't stop the run or get pressure.  2. WRs couldn't get open.

1. Sort of.

2011 - Bengals gave up 3 sacks, 0 hits, 12 hurries. Texans gave up 1 sack, 1 hit, 5 hurries. Texans win the battle of protection by a reasonable margin.
2012 - Bengals gave up 2 sacks, 0 hits, 9 hurries.  Texans gave up 0 sacks, 1 hit, 7 hurries. A bit closer this time, but Texans win again.

Here's where it gets interesting and people usually don't like to see this, but...

2013 - Bengals gave up 2 sacks, 0 hits, 9 hurries. Chargers gave up 0 sacks, 2 hits, 10 hurries. That's looking pretty close, but we can say Chargers win due to -2 sacks but +2 hits, +1 hurry
2014 - Bengals gave up 3 sacks, 3 hits, 9 hurries. Colts gave up 2 sacks, 3 hits, 12 hurries. Uh-oh, looks like the Bengals outplayed them here. With the way Jungle Noise makes it seem, you'd think we got destroyed in pass protection. Not the case though. 1 sack, 1 hit, and 5 of the hurries came from Winston alone, FWIW.

2. You're one of the guys that likes to say "WRs couldn't get open!" in basically every thread. I'm guessing you watch the Bengals a lot more closely than you do other NFL teams because our WRs "get open" just as often as anybody else around the league. This may sound crazy, but WRs don't get wide open on a consistent basis in the NFL. That's not how things work. There are guys playing defense that cover these people that require QBs to fit passes into a window. I mean, you seem like you put thought into your posts, but it doesn't seem like you look at our WRs with an objective eye compared to others around the NFL. When you see a guy WIDE open, it's because of blown coverage 90% of the time, not great separation. Guys aren't going to be getting 3 steps on a CB on a regular basis, it just doesn't happen with ANY WR in the league. You may think people are too harsh on Andy, but you're way too harsh on judging our WRs.

[fredtoast]

(06-25-2015, 07:37 AM)djs7685 Wrote: My jab at Brat does indicate that I don't think he was an elite coordinator, but obviously you should realize that I know more about the sport than to think ANY coordinator in the league calls "run, run, incompletion, punt". Literally zero coordinators do that, so why get all butthurt yet AGAIN over something that every single other person on the board can see that it was a tongue-in-cheek statement to take a shot at our old OC? I don't think he was completely awful, but he surely wasn't elite.

I realize that no coordinator would call "run.run. pass" every time.  So your line might have passed as a joke if Brat did that more than most other OCs.  Then it could be passed off as just an exaggeration.  But the truth is that except for '09 Brat was actually in the bottom half of the league in running on first down.

So it wasn't just that you were exaggerating a point that might have had a little truth to it.  The problem was that you were so totally and completely wrong. Why would you try to even make a joke to agree with someone who is so ridiculously wrong?

Here is an example to show what I mean.  If you made a one liner exaggeration about Dalton throwing a lot of interceptions it could be passed of as a joke to prove a point.  But if you make a one liner joke about Aaron Rogers throwing a lot of interceptions you are just stupid.

Get it now?  I am sorry if I call out stupid when I see it.  I am sorry it makes you so upset.  but I am going to keep on doing it.

[*Nately120*]

(06-24-2015, 05:57 PM)Rotobeast Wrote:  



I'm guessing the shovel pass is the first audible ?

I got yer swagger right here, Whit!

[djs7685]

(06-25-2015, 10:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I realize that no coordinator would call "run.run. pass" every time.  So your line might have passed as a joke if Brat did that more than most other OCs.  Then it could be passed off as just an exaggeration.  But the truth is that except for '09 Brat was actually in the bottom half of the league in running on first down.

So it wasn't just that you were exaggerating a point that might have had a little truth to it.  The problem was that you were so totally and completely wrong. Why would you try to even make a joke to agree with someone who is so ridiculously wrong?

Here is an example to show what I mean.  If you made a one liner exaggeration about Dalton throwing a lot of interceptions it could be passed of as a joke to prove a point.  But if you make a one liner joke about Aaron Rogers throwing a lot of interceptions you are just stupid.

Get it now?  I am sorry if I call out stupid when I see it.  I am sorry it makes you so upset.  but I am going to keep on doing it.

Like when a guy claims that Andrew Hawkins was an outside receiver in 2012? That kind of stupid?

Was Brat our OC for just 1 year, or am I missing something here? Why do you only show his statistics for 1 season alone? What were his 1st down statistics in the other 9 years of being an OC here? Or where do you get your information? I'd like to look at it myself.

Also, please realize that the joke of "run, run, incompletion, punt" isn't saying" Omg Brat runs too much on first down!" (the way you decided to decipher it), it just simply means an OC is predictable. I know plenty of people that have used "run, run, pass, punt" to jab an OC and they didn't mean that he ran it on first down way too much. You're just reaching and trying to twist things because that's the kind of person you are. I don't think anybody in the universe that has used that phrase was referring to their OC running too much on 1st.

[BengalD]

(06-24-2015, 11:22 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I am of the same opinion regarding the judgment of Peko, on these (and previous) boards.
He's lost a little, but I believe he is doing what he is asked to.
Just because it isn't pretty, it doesn't mean he isn't doing his job.

Ditto on this one.  Even though we don't play 3-4 much, this guys is an anchor on the inside for us and makes the offense have to go-around him more than go through him.

[*Nately120*]

(06-25-2015, 10:30 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This was some funny shit.  Rep to you.  However, you did miss the point (I think, or just avoided it) that Wilson was kept in his horrible game by his defense and special teams.  He posted a worse playoff QB rating than any from Dalton and yet, his defense didn't quit.

That was the point I was making.  Your tangent, although hilarious, was not addressing that point.  The Bengal's playoff losses have been a combination of failures at many positions:  Oline couldn't block or protect.  Defense couldn't stop the run or get pressure.  WRs couldn't get open.  QB turned the ball over.  But when you single out just Dalton, it isn't an accurate representation of what is truly happening to this team.  Blaming Dalton for the defense not being motivated is just fantasy.

I get what you are saying, but if you want to split hairs Wilson's worst game is .4 points lower than Dalton's worst.  Plus, in that 4 INT game Wilson did throw for a TD and rush for a TD, so it could be argued that being able to contribute 2 TDs may be better than scoring 0 TDs and throwing 1-3 INTs, ala Dalton.  Plus, this dreadful game was sandwiched between a 149.2 and 110.6 ratings SO yes, Wilson stunk but some days you need more help than others.

Of Wilson's 8 playoff games, 1 is worse than Dalton's best, 1 is a little better than Dalton's best, and the other 6 are lightyears (yes, I realize this is a measure of time, not distance) ahead.  Basically, picking the 1 game where Wilson managed to be worse than Dalton's best and using it to draw conclusions about Dalton is a bit misleading.  While the Bengals are overall flat in the playoffs someone has to be the "most flat" of all.

05- Palmer because he was MIA
09 - Graham for killing 2 drives by missing 2 near-automatic FGs
11 - Dalton's 3 INTs
12 - run defense?
13 - Gruden?
14 - Injures/what's the point?

And again, its seems like a chicken vs. egg sort of argument, but it seems like a turnover-prone offense makes the defense look worse than it really is (not that it's been good) by giving the other team more chances to run up the score and stats.  Again, until Dalton posts a better TD to TO ratio than 1:8 it's going to be hard for anyone to place the lion's share of blame elsewhere; QB bias, or no.

[Rotobeast]

(06-25-2015, 10:53 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I got yer swagger right here, Whit!

LOL
I actually think Jimmy Mac illustrates the point I had tried to make earlier in the thread.
His attitude made everyone else on the team more confident.
Although, Jimmy would've probably slapped Whit upside the head in an attempt to establish a pecking order and then spend an hour running away from him.

[*Nately120*]

(06-25-2015, 12:28 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: LOL
I actually think Jimmy Mac illustrates the point I had tried to make earlier in the thread.
His attitude made everyone else on the team more confident.
Although, Jimmy would've probably slapped Whit upside the head in an attempt to establish a pecking order and then spend an hour running away from him.

The guy has a SB Ring for the Bears and one for the Packers.  He even wore his Bears jersey to the White House when the Packers were invited since the Bears didn't go in 1985.  Dude's the ultimate IRL troll.

[wolfkaosaun]

(06-24-2015, 10:07 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Idk about Green > Nelson. It's really really close.
I would say Cobb > Jones or Sanu pretty easily. Cobb would be able to be a #1 WR easy at almost any other team.
Green Bay has a really good offensive line. Not too far from ours I would say.

You say we have people like Atkins, but 2012 was the only year he played like himself (13 was injured, and 14 he didn't play all that great). The defensive line was viewed as one of the best in 2012, and part of 2013 when Atkins was healthy, but it it went down drastically when Atkins got hurt (and hasn't came back 100% since). Most of our first round picks in our secondary has been hurt in the playoffs (Hall 2011, 2013 was out and, Newman 2013, 2014 was out). Burfict was playing injured in 2013, and he was out in 2014.

In 2011, and 2012 we didn't have the talent needed to win in the playoffs, and in 2013, and 2014 we had too many injuries to win in the playoffs.

I've never been too high on Cobb, but that's just me.

Yes, we had injuries. But every team has injuries. The Bengals still had a tremendous defense in '13 after losing Atkins and Hall. Heck, the Bengals beat the Chargers and Colts after losing both Atkins and Hall. That's two playoff teams that made it to the divisional round. They beat them without Hall or Atkins. Plus, the secondary wasn't the biggest issue in that game, it was the defensive line. MJ and Dunlap could get nothing done. And the Chargers were without their OT Dunlap starting.

You talk about no Hall or Newman in '13. Yet the Bengals gave up 128 passing yards that game and 1 TD. The team averaged giving up 209 passing yards a game (5th best in NFL), that's around their average.

'11 I can get behind. I didn't expect them to win that game at all. '12 they certainly had a chance to win. Gruden didn't throw to Green until the 2nd half, abandoned the run, couldn't stop the run, and that missed TD to Green. '13 they certainly could have won. The Chiefs backups almost beat the Chargers, you mean to tell me the Bengals starters couldn't? And '14 was due to a ton of injury. No deep threats and constant tight coverage on every receiver. Thankfully, though, the Bengals added Moore and Alford, so that issue won't come up again.

All in all, the Bengals had 2 really good chances to win a playoff game. You can say injuries hindered the Bengals in '13, but they went 5-2 after losing Atkins in the Miami game. So no. I don't believe injuries is why the Bengals lost the '13 game. There were a ton more reasons.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-24-2015, 06:15 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Pretty sure you were not following the gist. Had nothing to do with Alabama QBs as much as it had to do with the resume that you  seem to find important and that is to include the SEC hype. Getting National Championships at a school that stays as stacked at pretty much every position obviously does not require an outstanding QB.

no I followed it just fine, what you're not following is that none of that means much when it comes to evaluating a player's possible NFL career.

(06-24-2015, 06:18 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Pocket presence cannot be judged until he has 300 pounders bearing down on him with a full head of steam that are actually allowed to tattoo his ass...........

I agree, but you've already judged him with out even giving him much of a chance to prove himself.

(06-24-2015, 06:20 PM)OSUfan Wrote: McCarron should not be judged by other Alabama QBs just as you cannot judge him by National Championships won in the collegiate ranks yet many seem to consistently offer those up along with being in the SEC as a stunning resume now don't they?

Again, none of that means much when looking at an individual player, other than the fact that he came from a top notch DI school and played against NFL level players.

I guess basically you're saying that we should stay away from all top notch D1 QB's that win a National Championship since their Teams are stacked at all positions and their Conference is over rated.
Bye-Bye Ohio State QB's.

I don't like the SEC anymore than the next person, but you can't ignore that they have the most players from their conference in the NFL. 

http://247sports.com/Article/Since-2005-SEC-dominates-conferences-in-producing-NFL-talent--29686479


I think AJM is the same as AD, but is a better decision maker and fundamentally sound QB, which could lead him to being more consistent that AD.

But again, let's wait and see what we got instead of building him up or chopping him down.

[GodFather]

Here's a hypothetical question for everyone. Do you think when Andy has one of those bad Andy games this year (and if you think he won't I have a bridge in Florida for sale real cheap) do you think Hue will put AJ in to see what he has in him on the field?

[McC]

(06-25-2015, 02:46 PM)GodFather Wrote: Here's a hypothetical question for everyone. Do you think when Andy has one of those bad Andy games this year (and if you think he won't I have a bridge in Florida for sale real cheap) do you think Hue will put AJ in to see what he has in him on the field?

I'm thinking no because Marvin has an epic fear of a QB controversy.

[*Nately120*]

(06-25-2015, 03:02 PM)McC Wrote: I'm thinking no because Marvin has an epic fear of a QB controversy.

I suppose it depends what our record is.  It seems like lots of HC's switch QB's when things are going bad in hopes that the replacement shows enough potential to justify blaming everything on the QB.  See Marc Trestman in Chicago, every Browns season, the Texans, the Bills, etc.  Now, other than Chicago those are teams in QB hell at the moment, but if Dalton plays like garbage and we happen to be .500 or lower I can see Marvin MAYBE putting AJ out there in hopes that he shows enough to give an excuse to keep Marvin around to develop him.

Then again, Marvin Lewis doesn't seem to ever be on the hot-seat and we shouldn't be struggling in the W/L columns.  

[XenoMorph]

(06-25-2015, 03:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I suppose it depends what our record is.  It seems like lots of HC's switch QB's when things are going bad in hopes that the replacement shows enough potential to justify blaming everything on the QB.  See Marc Trestman in Chicago, every Browns season, the Texans, the Bills, etc.  Now, other than Chicago those are teams in QB hell at the moment, but if Dalton plays like garbage and we happen to be .500 or lower I can see Marvin MAYBE putting AJ out there in hopes that he shows enough to give an excuse to keep Marvin around to develop him.

Then again, Marvin Lewis doesn't seem to ever be on the hot-seat and we shouldn't be struggling in the W/L columns.  

yeah unless all the WRs are hurt again i dont see andy having anywhere close to a 2014 season again... Im expecting him to surpass his 2013 numbers in fewer attempts.

[Se ky bengal]

(06-25-2015, 05:06 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: yeah unless all the WRs are hurt again i dont see andy having anywhere close to a 2014 season again...  Im expecting him to surpass his 2013 numbers in fewer attempts.

Hope you're right! Although if he does not get there, should we look at other options in 2016? IMHO I think we do