The Bodine Witch Hunt

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-01-2016, 01:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Do you think squealing at grown men is the best way to motivate them?  Tony Dungy is one of the best coaches in NFL history and he did not squeal at players to motivate them.

But it is not even the position coaches job to give pre-game speeches.

This entire discussion shows how stupid discussions can get among fans.


"Do you judge a position coach based on the success he has at his job?"


"No.  I judge them based on how they look and how loud I think they yell at their players.  And if they play a musical instrument I make fun of them for that."

Dalton has one of the quickest releases in the league. Which really helps an OL. If we had one of the best OL in the league year after year. I could understand not even questioning the guy in charge of it. But we don't.

Dude has been here 21 years. How many elite offensive lines has he created? We had a guy recognized as one of the best tackles in the league at LT, a top 10 paid LG, a C piano man wanted to trade up for, a first round RG, and a first round RT last year. I thought it should have been a special OL. I sure didn't see it.  

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 01:54 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: How many guys have you ever heard say how fired up Paul Alexander gets them? Or how pumped they are to play for coach.

How many players have you heard talk about getting fired up playing for any O-line coach.

PA teaches technique and he does it as good as any O-line coach in the league.  All this talk about "motivation" is total BS because YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN PAUL WHEN HE IS MOTIVATING HIS PLAYERS.  You just made up something out of thin air because you think a person who plays the piano is weak and less manly.  That is childish.

Chuck Knoll won 4 SuperBowls with the Steelers and you know what he talked to his players about?  Fine wine and guitar playing.  Pete Carroll is one of the best coaches out there and he hugs his players and talks about their feelings instead of just pitching a squeally fit in their faces,  Tony Dungy is one of the best coaches in history and he rarely raised his voice with his players  Acting like a man is soft because he plays the piano is ridiculous.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 02:06 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Dalton has one of the quickest releases in the league. Which really helps an OL.

bengals throe the ball deep a lot more than most teams in the league.  That hurts the O-line.  Last year the bengal were top 5 in the league in pass plays over 20 yards and over 40 yards.

(05-01-2016, 02:06 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote:  If we had one of the best OL in the league year after year. I could understand not even questioning the guy in charge of it. But we don't.

Yes we do.  In the 9 years since PFF started keeping a "pass blocking efficiency" rating of O-lines the Bengals rank NUMBER ONE in the league, and they have been very consistent ranking in the top 6 in the league every year except one. (this was from the middle of the '15 season when the story about PA was in SI.)

This year PFF had the Bengals as one of only 5 O-lines that ranked in the top 10 in both pass blocking and run blocking.

This year Football Outsiders ranked the Bengals offensive line #1 in the league in run blocking.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-01-2016, 02:08 AM)fredtoast Wrote: How many players have you heard talk about getting fired up playing for any O-line coach.

PA teaches technique and he does it as good as any O-line coach in the league.  All this talk about "motivation" is total BS because YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN PAUL WHEN HE IS MOTIVATING HIS PLAYERS.  You just made up something out of thin air because you think a person who plays the piano is weak and less manly.  That is childish.

Chuck Knoll won 4 SuperBowls with the Steelers and you know what he talked to his players about?  Fine wine and guitar playing.  Pete Carroll is one of the best coaches out there and he hugs his players and talks about their feelings instead of just pitching a squeally fit in their faces,  Tony Dungy is one of the best coaches in history and he rarely raised his voice with his players  Acting like a man is soft because he plays the piano is ridiculous.

21 years isn't thin air. He got lucky with an all time great Willie Anderson. Who passed it on to Whitworth. Whose leadership has carried our OL.

I don't care about the piano. That is something extra to poke fun of. The 21 years and connection to the total ineptness of the 90s is my real problem. And the evaluation technique that involves hand shakes and ass beat evaluation eye tests.

Has he ever even pursued a promotion from OL coach? You give him a pass because he is a Bengal coach. Give any coach 21 freaking years and he will get lucky and have some success stories. I was glad to see Jay Hayes go. I will be glad to see Alexander go.

Guess how many pro bowls he coached out of our last 2 top 10 draft pick tackles. Levi Jones and Andre Smith......... 0

A lifetime coaching gig for doing middling work is shit. I am afraid what could happen when Whit retires. Without his leadership we could be in trouble. Because the fat complacent dude with a lifetime gig playing the piano eating twinkies aint about shit.

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-01-2016, 02:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: bengals throe the ball deep a lot more than most teams in the league.  That hurts the O-line.  Last year the bengal were top 5 in the league in pass plays over 20 yards and over 40 yards.



Yes we do.  In the 9 years since PFF started keeping a "pass blocking efficiency" rating of O-lines the Bengals rank NUMBER ONE in the league, and they have been very consistent ranking in the top 6 in the league every year except one. (this was from the middle of the '15 season when the story about PA was in SI.)

This year PFF had the Bengals as one of only 5 O-lines that ranked in the top 10 in both pass blocking and run blocking.

This year Football Outsiders ranked the Bengals offensive line #1 in the league in run blocking.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Thought you were the one in another thread ripping PFF. And anybody that has us ranked #1 in run blocking is nuts.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13867766/andy-dalton-playing-faster-ever-leading-undefeated-cincinnati-bengals-nfl

Andy Dalton was 2nd to Tom Brady in October of last year. 2nd fastest release time as a rookie. And has gotten better. Thanks Tom House.

I would image the release stat takes into account every drop back. So no matter the deep throws. On average we are getting the ball out faster than damn near everybody.

[Jpoore]

(04-30-2016, 07:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sounds like PA defending his boy. The thing that stood out to me is that it sounds like Whit isn't all that impressed with Bodine, judging from what was said. Surprising that PA would throw that out there. Seems PA is having to defend Bodine from his own players.

Whoever posted this got it wrong whit was saying that not to compare him to a player that didn't even start for their first 2 years bodine came in right away And started. If he were coming out now I guarantee everyone would be saying use our first round pick on him.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-01-2016, 01:34 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Do you think he talks to his team like he does the media?

He puts people on the IR for missing meetings/being late for practice. People who fumble get benched.

There's a reason why BJGE had 0 fumbles in 536 touches for the Patriots and 5 fumbles in 524 touches for the Bengals.

They know their coach has no problem punishing/benching them instead of just giving some frowny face claps when they F up. That attitude trickles down through the organization.

In the last 10 years, Paul Alexander's OL by YPC ranking...
16th or Higher: 1
Lower than 16th: 9
20th or Lower: 7
30th or Lower: 2

The guy's OL has been above average 1 time in the last 10 years at YPC, and been in the three worst in the league 2 times. That guy would NEVER retain his job with the Patriots. Can you imagine if that was a QB Coach for someone and his QB's ratings were below average for 9 of the last 10 years?





(PS: This situation smells an awful lot like when PA decided Nate Livings should be the starter over Evan Mathis, most fans called PA an idtiot. Then Evan Mathis left and became a Pro Bowl, All-Pro, Super Bowl Champion, while Livings was awful and sucked his way right out of the league 2 years later. Hope I am wrong.)

[TKUHL]

(04-30-2016, 07:43 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Alexander can't accept that one of his guys may actually suck. If he had his way Ghuicic would still be snapping the ball.

Didnt he defend Ghuicic in a similar way too?

[TKUHL]

Ahhh N.Livings...thats who i was thinking of.

[Sled21]

Personally, for a 2nd year center Bodine was not all that bad. I think he's going to make a lot of people eat their words...

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 03:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: (PS: This situation smells an awful lot like when PA decided Nate Livings should be the starter over Evan Mathis, most fans called PA an idtiot. Then Evan Mathis left and became a Pro Bowl, All-Pro, Super Bowl Champion, while Livings was awful and sucked his way right out of the league 2 years later. Hope I am wrong.)

PA was giving Mathis starts when he was playing well before his injury in '09.  IN '10 Mathis was a fat slob and did not deserve playing time.  Every other team in ther league saw the exact same thing and that is why Mathis had to take a league minimum contract despite there being years of film on him for every team to watch.  Even Mathis admitted he was out of shape in '10 and he did a video showing himself getting back in shape.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 03:57 AM)TKUHL Wrote: Didnt he defend Ghuicic in a similar way too?

No.  He was happy to move on the Cook.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 02:38 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Andy Dalton was 2nd to Tom Brady in October of last year. 2nd fastest release time as a rookie. And has gotten better. Thanks Tom House.

I would image the release stat takes into account every drop back. So no matter the deep throws. On average we are getting the ball out faster than damn near everybody.

Dalton's "average release time" is less than half a second quicker than half the QBs in the league.  If there was poor protection he would still be taking a lot of hits or have guys all over him a half second before he released the ball.  And that just is not happening.

Plus "Average release time" is thown out of proportion by scrambling QBs.  It has zero to do with pass protection.

[BengalsRocker]

Paul Alexander's point was having patience and letting Bodine develop like others(who panned out)have in the past.

He was thrown into the fire early unlike the others.

I get what he's saying.

What I just don't know is if this team can afford it considering his level of play.

He's not the worst in the league. But I certainly don't think he's "one hell of a player" from individual rankings and tape.

PA is also right that Zeitler has had some struggles and he's also a higher round prospect.

However his whole response to the question just reeks of deflection.

It's more concern than a "witch hunt". But hey... leave Britney alone!!

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-30-2016, 11:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Let's be honest.

PA is well respected as an O-line coach by the people who matter and only hated by Bengal fans.

the same Bengals fans who hated Justin Smith, Leon Hall, and Andy Dalton.  Tne same Bengal fasn who claimed Whitworth could not handle speed rushers and needed to be moved to guard.

Well, I just lost a lot of respect for this "well respected coach" because he not only went on to criticize a former first round pick heading in to his FA year (Zeitler), but he quoted Whit on something that Whit, the leader of the team, would probably rather not have be public.  Like I said before:  childish.  

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 10:51 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Well, I just lost a lot of respect for this "well respected coach" because he not only went on to criticize a former first round pick heading in to his FA year (Zeitler), but he quoted Whit on something that Whit, the leader of the team, would probably rather not have be public.  Like I said before:  childish.  

He is standing up for one of his players who is receiving unjust criticism.

That is what good coaches do.

[yellowxdiscipline]

Ghuicic, Livings, Cook, Roland… All dudes the flashed some level of being capable, but then went south once they got the chance to start. Yet PA stood by them and defended each one of them. He's doing the same with Bodine now. Im giving Bodine one more year and if he doesnt improve then we need to move on.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-30-2016, 11:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Link please.

--PFF rankings are a joke.  Here is how they work.  Player A plays 70% of the snaps and messes up once every ten plays.  Player B plays fewer snaps (50%) and messes up more often (once every 8 plays).  Guess which player will be rated higher by PFF.  Player B who played both fewer snaps and messed up more often will be ranked higher than player A.  So that means Bodien could be ranked behind a guy who played less and messed up more often.  their rankings are total garbage.  In fact when you look at the PFF lists you will often see bad players near the top and good players ner the bottom.

--How is Bodine to blame for the problems the Bengals rush game had in 2015, but gets no credit for the run game in '14 when we ranked 12th in the league in yards per carry?

--Pass protection is good.  Lots of teams use quick passing game just like the Bengals, and in fact the Bengals throw more deep passes than most other teams which requires long pass protection.  Bengals were 4th in the league in pass plays of greater than 20 yards (63) and 5th in pass plays greater than 40 yards (13).  The claim that we throw nothing but quick short passes is a complete myth.

This is good stuff.  So Fred must be talking about those higher ranked, rotational centers that only play 50% of the snaps.

In 14, the Bengals played the defense-optional NFC South...not the AFC West of a year ago.  Running over defenses fielded by the Saints and Falcons was pretty easy for everyone.  Denver a year ago...not so much. 

 The stat you throw up about pass plays greater than 40 yards is irrelevant and a very short sample.  The Bengals were one of the fastest "ball out of QBs hands" teams in the league for the entire season.  That stat does matter.  That is why I am continually amazed at how the steelers line is so poorly rated.  Their QB holds on the the ball all day, and he ususallyhas good protection.

Pass protection is good? It may be good, except when better teams sent pressure right up the middle.  Dalton played one of the toughest games I have ever seen him play against AZ last year, and blitz after blitz that was planting him after each pass came right up the middle.  Pass protection is adequate, but to be a Super Bowl Champion you need to be able to run block AND pass block against the best the NFL has to offer.  And that is why so many have an issue with Bodine.  He simply isn't up to the rest of the line's standard.  I don't dislike the guy at all, and I am pulling like mad for a huge year for him. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2016, 02:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: bengals throe the ball deep a lot more than most teams in the league.  That hurts the O-line.  Last year the bengal were top 5 in the league in pass plays over 20 yards and over 40 yards.



Yes we do.  In the 9 years since PFF started keeping a "pass blocking efficiency" rating of O-lines the Bengals rank NUMBER ONE in the league, and they have been very consistent ranking in the top 6 in the league every year except one. (this was from the middle of the '15 season when the story about PA was in SI.)

This year PFF had the Bengals as one of only 5 O-lines that ranked in the top 10 in both pass blocking and run blocking.

This year Football Outsiders ranked the Bengals offensive line #1 in the league in run blocking.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

This is hilarious, a few posts ago PFF is a turd storm and now they are your biggest arguement?  Classic.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2016, 03:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He puts people on the IR for missing meetings/being late for practice. People who fumble get benched.

There's a reason why BJGE had 0 fumbles in 536 touches for the Patriots and 5 fumbles in 524 touches for the Bengals.

They know their coach has no problem punishing/benching them instead of just giving some frowny face claps when they F up. That attitude trickles down through the organization.

In the last 10 years, Paul Alexander's OL by YPC ranking...
16th or Higher: 1
Lower than 16th: 9
20th or Lower: 7
30th or Lower: 2

The guy's OL has been above average 1 time in the last 10 years at YPC, and been in the three worst in the league 2 times. That guy would NEVER retain his job with the Patriots. Can you imagine if that was a QB Coach for someone and his QB's ratings were below average for 9 of the last 10 years?





(PS: This situation smells an awful lot like when PA decided Nate Livings should be the starter over Evan Mathis, most fans called PA an idtiot. Then Evan Mathis left and became a Pro Bowl, All-Pro, Super Bowl Champion, while Livings was awful and sucked his way right out of the league 2 years later. Hope I am wrong.)

Game, set, match...