The Bodine Witch Hunt

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 11:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote:  The Bengals were one of the fastest "ball out of QBs hands" teams in the league for the entire season.  That stat does matter.  That is why I am continually amazed at how the steelers line is so poorly rated.  Their QB holds on the the ball all day, and he ususallyhas good protection.

I don't think you understand how this works.

QB A gets good protection and gets rid of the ball.

QB B gets poor protection and has to scramble before throwing the ball.

Neither QB gets sacked, but QB A has a quicker release time.

Based on your logic QB B had "better" protection because his release time was longer, but in fact his release time was longer because he got "worse" protection.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2016, 10:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton's "average release time" is less than half a second quicker than half the QBs in the league.  If there was poor protection he would still be taking a lot of hits or have guys all over him a half second before he released the ball.  And that just is not happening.

Plus "Average release time" is thown out of proportion by scrambling QBs.  It has zero to do with pass protection.

Disagree, scrambles become run plays are are taken out of the calculation.  The release time also has to do with the West Coast (sidebar-can we come up with a catchy name for where this offense really originated?  Maybe the Ohio River Offense?) Offensive scheme.  It has a LOT to do with pass protection, or lack thereof.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2016, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He is standing up for one of his players who is receiving unjust criticism.

That is what good coaches do.

By whining to the media about "witch hunts", quoting his other players (that would probably be happier if that was not public), and insulting his first round G that is up for FA after this year....that is what good coaches do?  You, sir, know absolutely nothing about coaching. 

That is what assbags do, not good coaches.  

A good coach would simply say:  "We liked what Westerman gives us in depth right now.  I have a lot of faith in Russell and I think we continue to raise the bar for our offensive line each season and he is going to be a part of that group that continues to improve".

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2016, 11:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think you understand how this works.

QB A gets good protection and gets rid of the ball.

QB B gets poor protection and has to scramble before throwing the ball.

Neither QB gets sacked, but QB A has a quicker release time.

Based on your logic QB B had "better" protection because his release time was longer, but in fact his release time was longer because he got "worse" protection.

I don't think you understand that there are also rankings on things like hurries, QB hits, sacks, etc.  When you have a scheme that is designed to protect the QB from hits and generate more YAC than just deep shots, your line may be ranked higher than it truly is because they simply don't have to sustain their blocks as long.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2016, 11:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think you understand how this works.

QB A gets good protection and gets rid of the ball.

QB B gets poor protection and has to scramble before throwing the ball.

Neither QB gets sacked, but QB A has a quicker release time.

Based on your logic QB B had "better" protection because his release time was longer, but in fact his release time was longer because he got "worse" protection.

Also, why did you not respond to the majority of this post:

This is good stuff.  So Fred must be talking about those higher ranked, rotational centers that only play 50% of the snaps.


In 14, the Bengals played the defense-optional NFC South...not the AFC West of a year ago.  Running over defenses fielded by the Saints and Falcons was pretty easy for everyone.  Denver a year ago...not so much. 

Pass protection is good? It may be good, except when better teams sent pressure right up the middle.  Dalton played one of the toughest games I have ever seen him play against AZ last year, and blitz after blitz that was planting him after each pass came right up the middle.  Pass protection is adequate, but to be a Super Bowl Champion you need to be able to run block AND pass block against the best the NFL has to offer.  And that is why so many have an issue with Bodine.  He simply isn't up to the rest of the line's standard.  I don't dislike the guy at all, and I am pulling like mad for a huge year for him. 

[CageTheBengal]

(05-01-2016, 03:07 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Whoever posted this got it wrong whit was saying that not to compare him to a player that didn't even start for their first 2 years bodine  came in right away And started. If he were coming out now I guarantee everyone would be saying use our first round pick on him.

All I did was copy and paste. Nothings wrong.

[SunsetBengal]

If Bodine ever has any hope of a second contract, he had better spend more time training truck push than bench press.

[OBX Bengal]

I had never heard of the Sport's Illustrated article that Fred mentioned.  If anyone else wants to read it you can scroll down in this link, where it has been scanned:

http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?/topic/77846-sports-illustrated-does-full-article-on-bengals-o-line-guru/

[Shake n Blake]

(04-30-2016, 11:38 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I wish we could hear that conversation between Whit and Paul, that prompted Whit to tell him not to compare Bodine to Braham.

I doubt the conversation was all positive, or that PA just threw that comparison out for shits and giggles. PA was probably using Braham to defend Bodine again. He sounds pretty defensive about the guy. Probably some pressure there, seeing how the Bengals made a rare trade up to get him, and he's not exactly impressing.

(05-01-2016, 03:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He puts people on the IR for missing meetings/being late for practice. People who fumble get benched.

There's a reason why BJGE had 0 fumbles in 536 touches for the Patriots and 5 fumbles in 524 touches for the Bengals.

They know their coach has no problem punishing/benching them instead of just giving some frowny face claps when they F up. That attitude trickles down through the organization.

In the last 10 years, Paul Alexander's OL by YPC ranking...

There is no accountability in the Bengals entire organization because the GM will never fire himself. So it starts from the top, and that GM will never fire the HC or some of the "lifer" assistants. That's what enables a guy like PA to pick out favorites and ride them even when that player is clearly not the answer. 

(05-01-2016, 10:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton's "average release time" is less than half a second quicker than half the QBs in the league.  If there was poor protection he would still be taking a lot of hits or have guys all over him a half second before he released the ball.  And that just is not happening.

0.5 seconds is a lot of time on a football field. The average play lasts around 5.0 seconds, so Dalton is basically spending 10% less time to throw the ball.

Imagine the difference between a WR who runs a 4.5 and one who runs a 5.0. That's considered a HUGE difference. 

It's asinine to think these world-class athletes can't get very far in 0.5 seconds. 

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 11:23 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Also, why did you not respond to the majority of this post:

This is good stuff.  So Fred must be talking about those higher ranked, rotational centers that only play 50% of the snaps.

No.  I am talking about the fact that onl 13 Centers started 16 games in 2015 like Bodine did.  So a large majority of thr centers in the league played fewere snaps that he did.  And based on the PFF ranking system it is possible for these centers who played fewer snaps to actually mess up mor eoften than Bodine and still be ranked ahead of him

(05-01-2016, 11:23 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: In 14, the Bengals played the defense-optional NFC South...not the AFC West of a year ago.  Running over defenses fielded by the Saints and Falcons was pretty easy for everyone.  Denver a year ago...not so much. 

In 2014 the Bengals played the AFC East.  Here is how those four teams ranked in rushing yards allowed per carry.

Jets...6
Pats..10
Bills...14
Fins...21
Avg...12.8

In 2015 we played the AFC West

KC....3
Den..13
Oak..16
SD....30
Avg...15.5

(05-01-2016, 11:23 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Pass protection is good? It may be good, except when better teams sent pressure right up the middle.  Dalton played one of the toughest games I have ever seen him play against AZ last year, and blitz after blitz that was planting him after each pass came right up the middle.  Pass protection is adequate, but to be a Super Bowl Champion you need to be able to run block AND pass block against the best the NFL has to offer.  And that is why so many have an issue with Bodine.  He simply isn't up to the rest of the line's standard.  I don't dislike the guy at all, and I am pulling like mad for a huge year for him. 

Arizona was the number 5 defense in the league.  They got pressure on almost every team they played, but overall Dalton scorched the Cards (22-39, 315 yds, 2 td, 0 int) so he was getting better protection than many other QBs did against them.  And only 4 other teams in the league had more yards against the Cards than the Bengals.  So if you want to cry about the offensive line maybe you should not choose a game were we hung 31 points and 388 yards on one of the best defense in the league on the road.

[TGISunday]

I'm sure PA has the best set of eyes and all the rest of the world needs bifocals.

Arizona one of the best defenses in the league? Didn't Carolina almost drop a 50-burger on that defense, and Green Bay made late-game swiss cheese of that same defense? Interesting measuring stick you have there.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 12:51 PM)TGISunday Wrote: I'm sure PA has the best set of eyes and all the rest of the world needs bifocals.

Arizona one of the best defenses in the league?  Didn't Carolina almost drop a 50-burger on that defense, and Green Bay made late-game swiss cheese of that same defense? Interesting measuring stick you have there.

#5 in yards allowed and #7 in points allowed.  What measuring stick do you use?

Give me your list of the top defenses in the league and I bet I can also find a couple of performances where they laid an egg. 

[Yojimbo]

I have no problem with PA defending his player. That's the kind of coach I want to give maximum effort for. Here's how I see this situation playing out. This season Bodine will be the starter while Westerman is learning the position. Either Bodine will improve and earn his role as the starter or there will be an open competition with Westerman next offseason.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 01:31 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I have no problem with PA defending his player. That's the kind of coach I want to give maximum effort for. Here's how I see this situation playing out. This season Bodine will be the starter while Westerman is learning the position. Either Bodine will improve and earn his role as the starter or there will be an open competition with Westerman next offseason.

This.

[McC]

A coach can't have favorites. A coach has to be able to objectively assess his players. What year the player is in is really beside the point. Did he play well or not? The only other pertinent question is did he improve.

And if a coach is asked a question about a draftee and he launches into a little ***** tirade about his own personal project, he looks like a true weenie, especially if that project is going so badly.

The way he acted, it looks like heat is not only coming from the outside.

He didn't get better from year one to two and that means one of two things--PA is not getting him coached up or he was wrong about the player's potential to begin with.

Lotta guys could kick an old fat guy's ass. Doesn't mean they could all play C in the NFL.

[lostpoet2]

That was quite an unusual quote from PA. What I can't figure out was why he decided to throw Whitworth, Boling, and Zeitler all under the bus to some extent. I bet those three guys did not feel particularly motivated by those comments.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 11:50 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's asinine to think these world-class athletes can't get very far in 0.5 seconds. 

But when I looked up the numbers we are not talking about anything close to half a second.  we are talking about a few hundreths of a second

https://www.profootballfocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2.1-2.5-Seconds.png

These numbers show that there is only a few hundreths of second difference, but look at what PFF has to say about these numbers

On the other hand, some of the younger, more mobile quarterbacks in the league such as Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, and even Andrew Luck have much higher times to throw, and it’s not because they’re getting more time from their line, but moreso because they’re either looking to extend plays with their legs, trying to take more downfield shots, or some combination of both.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 11:50 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: There is no accountability in the Bengals entire organization because the GM will never fire himself. So it starts from the top, and that GM will never fire the HC or some of the "lifer" assistants. That's what enables a guy like PA to pick out favorites and ride them even when that player is clearly not the answer. 

Bengals have fired plenty of coaches.  This argument makes no sense.

"Bengals front office never fires anyone I want them to fire therefore they never fire anyone. Derp."

[jfkbengals]

(05-01-2016, 01:26 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Everybody in the NFL knows how to play football. There is a reason coaches get promoted and are highly respected. Bellicheat blows at drafting. He gets his guys prepared and motivated to play. Pete Carrol is one of the best motivators in the business. And has had some of the best teams lately. Zimmer will motivate the shit out of guys. San Fran fell off a cliff when they lost their motivator coach.

Grown men not motivated will get the hell beat out of the by grown men who are properly motivated.

These guys have millions of dollars in their bank accounts. Without proper coaching and motivation you have the 90s Bengals. (Cough.. Paul Alexander was there cough..)

Does Bellicheck get them motivated, or is it the Bradys, McGinnests, Vrabels, Harrisons, and Bruschis?  He hasn't been a good HC when he didn't have those guys around.

Don't forget, San Fran fell off a cliff before that coach left.  They hit the ground when half of their starters retired or moved on.

(05-01-2016, 03:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He puts people on the IR for missing meetings/being late for practice. People who fumble get benched.

There's a reason why BJGE had 0 fumbles in 536 touches for the Patriots and 5 fumbles in 524 touches for the Bengals.

They know their coach has no problem punishing/benching them instead of just giving some frowny face claps when they F up. That attitude trickles down through the organization.

In the last 10 years, Paul Alexander's OL by YPC ranking...
16th or Higher: 1
Lower than 16th: 9
20th or Lower: 7
30th or Lower: 2

The guy's OL has been above average 1 time in the last 10 years at YPC, and been in the three worst in the league 2 times. That guy would NEVER retain his job with the Patriots. Can you imagine if that was a QB Coach for someone and his QB's ratings were below average for 9 of the last 10 years?





(PS: This situation smells an awful lot like when PA decided Nate Livings should be the starter over Evan Mathis, most fans called PA an idtiot. Then Evan Mathis left and became a Pro Bowl, All-Pro, Super Bowl Champion, while Livings was awful and sucked his way right out of the league 2 years later. Hope I am wrong.)

Correct, deflated footballs. 

(05-01-2016, 11:13 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Disagree, scrambles become run plays are are taken out of the calculation.  The release time also has to do with the West Coast (sidebar-can we come up with a catchy name for where this offense really originated?  Maybe the Ohio River Offense?) Offensive scheme.  It has a LOT to do with pass protection, or lack thereof.  

Scrambles only become a run play after the QB crosses the LOS.  Release the ball and it's still a pass.

[Beaker]

Nick Vigil on the team automatically makes Russell Bodine better.