The Bodine Witch Hunt

[magikod]

(04-30-2016, 07:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No one wasclammoring for Cook to start.  Cook was a nobaody that we had not even seen play when he rrplaced Ghiacuic.

You must be thinking of when everyone was wanting Trevor Robinson to start instead of Cook.

What about Wilkerson? I think that was his name. The center from LSU a few years back, I remember he came in for like 3 games when our center got hurt and we had 100+ yards rushing in each of the games. Then we go with our regular center (Ghiuick or whatever spelling it is), and our line couldn't run the ball worth a damn again.

I really wish we could have landed the center from Michigan in the 3rd round. That would have made our draft this year amazing. 

We really do need some competition at the center position. Even if the backup doesn't start, it could at least motivate Bodine to step up his game and improve his game a bit. 

This could be the make or break year for Bodine (like I said with Margus Hunt in another thread). Center is the most important position on the O-line in my opinion, he is the one who sets up all the other linemen pre-snap on there blocking assignments, which linemen is picking up the blitzer, etc.

-magikod

[SunsetBengal]

(05-03-2016, 02:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Logic is obviously useless in a world were everyone believes Paul Alexander told the team "I don't want any draft picks to work with.  All I need are undrafted guy and cheap-ass, past-their-prime free agents."


Over Pauls first 20 years as O-line coach for the Bengals they only used a total of 6 picks in the first two rounds on offensive linemen (Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Eric Steinbach, Whitworth, Smith, Zeitler).  Every single one of them were starters for many years.  They had also only used 3 third round picks, and only one of them failed to be at least a 2 year starter in the NFL(Rod Payne '97 C).

Here is a list of the O-linemen taken by other teams in the first three rounds that never became starers from just '04-'13  (I am not counting the last two drafts because there are guys who may still become starers)

'13...Brennan Williams-3
'12...Mike Adams-2, Donald Stephenson-3, Tony Bergstrom-3
'11...Danny Watkins-1 (Watkins actually started 12 games one season, but with only 18 starts in 3 seasons for 2 teams he qualifies as a flop), Gabe Carimi-1 (also had one seadon with 14 starts, but with only 26 starts in four seasons for 3 teams he is also a bust), Derrick Sherrod-1, Ben Ijalana-2,
'10...Mike Johnson-3
'09...Jason Smith-1 (#2 overall pick had one season with 15 starts, only 26 in four seasons with 2 teams), Eben Britton-2 (15 starts rookie season, only 19 more starts in next five years with 2 teams), Robert Brewester-3, Antoine Caldwell-3,
'08...Jeff Otah-1 (29 starts in only 3 seasons), Oniel Cousins-3
'07...James Martin-3, Andy Alleman-3
'06...Charles spencer-3, Rashad Butler-3
'05...Marcus Johnson-2 (one season with 10 starts, only 8 more in 4 more years with 2 teams), Rashad Butler-3
'04...Jacob Rogers-2,
'03...Bruce Nrelson-2, Wayne Hunter-3 (One season 15 starts, only 9 more over 7 seasons with 4 teams), Seth Wand-3 (one season 16 starts, only 2 more in 4 more years with 3 teams), Courtney Van Buren-3

I'd have to back another 7 years to get to the one and only pick from the first three rounds that flopped for the Bengals.  Compared to the rest of the league that looks pretty good.

I guess someone will argue that Paul has such a low total because the Bengals only made 9 picks over those 20 seasons, but that goes back to my point about how little he was given to work with.

I notice how you refrained from including 4th round picks in your post, as that is where the last two "drafted" Centers for the Bengals have came from.  Not only Russell Bodine, but also Jonathan Luigs was taken in the 4th round of the '09 draft.  We all remember how his Bengals career panned out..


When, oh when, will the Bengals and Paul Alexander put enough stock in the Center position to value it enough to invest a high pick on one, from the top of the heap?  They seem to have no problems taking Tackles in the 1st or 2nd, or with taking good Guards in the 1st or 3rd.  But Center seems to be the position that they value the least.

I find that a bit puzzling, especially from a maestro like Paul Alexander.  Certainly, the maestro would know that the way to build a football team is from the inside, and work outward, right?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Sure seems like there is only one fan here that thinks PA is a fantastic coach.

This should speak for itself, but oh yeah. We are fans and he is a coach so just always pretend we are wrong and he is correct.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-03-2016, 02:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not a lame argument when it was posted to couter the claim that Bodine was the ONLY problem with the run game.

That doesn't prove that Bodine was any better, but it does prove that the person who claimed Bodine was the only problem does not have much credibility.

The game you play twisting what people say to try and strengthen your argument is quite funny. And growing older and older all the time.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-03-2016, 07:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sure seems like there is only one fan here that thinks PA is a fantastic coach.

Could it be the one who has 51 posts (25% of the entire thread)?

[3wt]

(05-03-2016, 06:44 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I notice how you refrained from including 4th round picks in your post, as that is where the last two "drafted" Centers for the Bengals have came from.  Not only Russell Bodine, but also Jonathan Luigs was taken in the 4th round of the '09 draft.  We all remember how his Bengals career panned out..


When, oh when, will the Bengals and Paul Alexander put enough stock in the Center position to value it enough to invest a high pick on one, from the top of the heap?  They seem to have no problems taking Tackles in the 1st or 2nd, or with taking good Guards in the 1st or 3rd.  But Center seems to be the position that they value the least.

I find that a bit puzzling, especially from a maestro like Paul Alexander.  Certainly, the maestro would know that the way to build a football team is from the inside, and work outward, right?

Actually I think Luigs was a 5th round pick.

And while I agree that seem to have undervalued it over the last couple of decades the ownership has had two first round picks in the past at the center position (Johnson and Rimington).

Sometime it's a timing thing and balancing the pick against our other needs and overall evaluation.   My guess is that this year we would have taken one of the top 4 receivers over Kelly - though I don't really know where he was on their board.  Because the receiver position was a more urgent need and the top 4 receivers would have been graded about as high as Kelly.

But we were not going have a shot at Kelly and you would have to say that Boyd was a higher value for us than Martin in the second round.

Plus we don't know how they envision backing up Bodine (or challenging him).   We may let TJ Johnson go because we feel at the very least we have backups in Boling and Westerman.

My problem is that there were UDFA centers available (Friend, Brendel, Skura, etc.) and we did not manage to get one of them to develop for improved depth.

Not sure what that is frankly.  I mean players are going to sign where they want to go.   But I think it was a fail for us.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-04-2016, 12:55 PM)3wt Wrote: Actually I think Luigs was a 5th round pick.

Na, he was a 4th rounder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Luigs

[3wt]

(05-04-2016, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Na, he was a 4th rounder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Luigs

Thanks Shake 

[XenoMorph]

(05-04-2016, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Na, he was a 4th rounder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Luigs

think injury derailed that train...

This kid we drafted though should have an oppertunity to compete for a spot on the line. his NFL comparison was alex mack... they might go with the current vet first but i could see him earning playing time with good practices.

But we cant forget about Jake Fisher either he probly gets to play first

Our 5 best might be O. Z. Bodine, Boiling, Whit going right now

But if fisher impresses and bodine doesnt they might try and slide boiling inside...


As for OG spot does he seem more a Left or a Right

[fredtoast]

(05-03-2016, 07:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sure seems like there is only one fan here that thinks PA is a fantastic coach.

This should speak for itself, but oh yeah. We are fans and he is a coach so just always pretend we are wrong and he is correct.

Here is what has happened,  i have posted multiple sources and facts to back up my position, and all you have posted is "Message board and local talk radio hate Paul Alexander, so it must be true!"

I post FootballOutsiders ranking out O-line #1 in run blocking.  You respond "They'e stupid!"

I post ProFootballFocus ranking out O-line 31 in pass blocking.  You respond "They're stupid!"

I post a Sports Illustrated article singing his praises.  You respond "They're stupid!"


I point out that when Evan Mathis left the Bengals no other team would give him more than a league minimum contract despite there being years of film on him.  You respond [b][i]"Every NFL team was stupid!"[/i][/b]

I post stats showing the Alexander has never had a high draft pick flop.  You respond "Andre Smith was only on of the best right tackles in the league for a couple of years.  That is a flop!"

I post the fact that in his first 20 years as O-line coach he was only given 9 picks in the first three rounds.  You respond "Paul did not want the Bengals to use any draft picks on O-linemen.  All he wanted was undrafted free agents and projects."


I post a list of all the other players by other teams in the first three rounds that have flopped.  You repond.......*crickets*........."Bengal message board and talk radio haters don't like Paul.  Everyone else is stupid!"
 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

http://articles.mcall.com/2011-07-31/sports/mc-notebook-eagles-0731-20110731_1_desean-jackson-eagles-president-joe-banner-danny-Watkins

Quote:"I knew that [new Eagles offensive line coach Howard Mudd prefers] athletic linemen," Mathis said. "I was in a scheme in Cincinnati where it was more bigger linemen. I didn't fit real well. So to come here, where athletic linemen are a little more respected, it's a little better for me."

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2009/11/27/interview-evan-mathis/

Quote:PFF: You’ve plied your trade up to now as a back-up lineman, which has involved you playing multiple positions on the line. How has the chance to settle on one position allowed you to improve your performance?

EM: I never wanted to be the sixth man who could play all the spots well. I wanted to be a guy who could play one spot great. I haven’t played the same position for two years in a row since high school. I moved between LT and RT while also doubling as the backup center my first three years of college. I was moved to LG my senior year and that gave me my best shot at the NFL. When I was drafted, Carolina moved me to the only position I had never played, RG. After not playing my rookie year, I started my 2nd year at RG, only the next year to be moved to tackle and not play a snap. They bounced me to third team center the next year only to cut me at the end of camp. I got picked up by Miami and practiced every spot with them and splitting reps at RG on Sundays. They cut me after week 12 and that’s how I ended up in Cincinnati. The Bengals had me practicing at every spot on the line every week for the rest of the season. After the season, I called Marvin Lewis and told him I wanted to play defensive end. He ultimately laughed at me and told me he thought I could compete for one of the inside spots. I conceded and vowed to do what it takes to get the job done. They had me working the inside three spots in mini-camp and OTA’s. When camp came around, I worked mostly LG and was able to settle in and get comfortable. Personally, I believe that staying in one spot is much better for players than having to bounce around. If I play a few weeks in a row at LG and then make a sudden move to RG, it will feel kind of awkward and takes a minute to get used to again, even though I’ve taken thousands of reps at that position.

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/O-Line-embraces-move-back-to-09-style/93751472-cc70-4996-bffb-d4a0ad8ecfe5

Quote:It would all seem to indicate the Bengals are going to go to more of a power running game with not as much zone while searching for more athletic guards to ease the transition from Williams, heading into the last year of his deal.

But Alexander laughed and said, "If I can't tell the players (the scheme) I'm certainly not going to tell the media."

Yet he did say that he's not going to divert from stockpiling big maulers because it fits his technique and the AFC North: "Little, quick, athletic soft guys don’t get it done."

"Here is what has happened" . . . a coach who admittedly prefers fat ass Olinemen like Lutui and Livings over "athletic" Olinemen like Mathis had Mathis bouncing along all five Oline positions in practice.  During games Alexander rotated Livings and Mathis by quarters at one point.  Howard Mudd, who Alexander himself noted was "the best," did more with Mathis in 3 months than Alexander did in 3 seasons.

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2016, 06:38 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:   Howard Mudd, who Alexander himself noted was "the best," did more with Mathis in 3 months than Alexander did in 3 seasons.

Then why did you post a link to an interview with Mathis where PFF says he is one of the beat in the league and Mathis Gives ALEXANDER the credit?

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2009/11/27/interview-evan-mathis/

The 2009 Pro-Bowl fan voting has been underway for a while now,At ProFootballFocus we’d like to bring attention to players who are enjoying excellent seasons and genuinely deserve consideration but may be flying under the radar of many, who instead choose to concentrate on the same few ‘names’ that are always focused on. One of those players is Cincinnati Bengals Left Guard Evan Mathis, who has been sitting amongst the leaders in our Offensive Guard rankings all through the season.


PFF: In your opinion (or your coaches’) is one facet of your play better than the other at the moment? Are you a better pass protector than run blocker etc.?

EM: I believe that both my run and pass blocking has made a tremendous amount of progress this year. If there have been any weaknesses in my game, Paul Alexander has told me exactly what I needed to do to fix those things. Any time something comes up, he tells me, I fix it, the end.  It takes this faith in your coach knowing what he’s talking about to be able to carry it to the field successfully.  .  .   Coach Alexander can be a very strict grader and he gave me a few pressures on my grade sheet for getting close to the QB when I was popping behind the LT to pick up a bull rushing James Harrison. I made the block, he just wants it done better so he grades me down. He grades me down, I correct it, and I’ll be more effective the next time that type of situation comes around. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2016, 10:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why did you post a link to an interview with Mathis where PFF says he is one of the beat in the league and Mathis Gives ALEXANDER the credit?

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2009/11/27/interview-evan-mathis/

The 2009 Pro-Bowl fan voting has been underway for a while now,At ProFootballFocus we’d like to bring attention to players who are enjoying excellent seasons and genuinely deserve consideration but may be flying under the radar of many, who instead choose to concentrate on the same few ‘names’ that are always focused on. One of those players is Cincinnati Bengals Left Guard Evan Mathis, who has been sitting amongst the leaders in our Offensive Guard rankings all through the season.


PFF: In your opinion (or your coaches’) is one facet of your play better than the other at the moment? Are you a better pass protector than run blocker etc.?

EM: I believe that both my run and pass blocking has made a tremendous amount of progress this year. If there have been any weaknesses in my game, Paul Alexander has told me exactly what I needed to do to fix those things. Any time something comes up, he tells me, I fix it, the end.  It takes this faith in your coach knowing what he’s talking about to be able to carry it to the field successfully.  .  .   Coach Alexander can be a very strict grader and he gave me a few pressures on my grade sheet for getting close to the QB when I was popping behind the LT to pick up a bull rushing James Harrison. I made the block, he just wants it done better so he grades me down. He grades me down, I correct it, and I’ll be more effective the next time that type of situation comes around. 

Did you expect Mathis to thank Coach Mudd two seasons before he coached Mathis?  I know Coach Mudd is good, but he isn't so good players travel backwards through time to thank him before he has had a chance to coach them.

If Alexander is a good as you claim, why did Mathis have years of bad tape as you also claim?  Why did he go from backing up Nate Livings (who was out of the league one season after leaving the Bengals) to a starter after one preseason with the Eagles?  Why did he go from getting a vet minimum contract based upon years of bad tape under Alexander to a 5yr/$25M contract after a single season under Mudd?  Why did he go from having zero Pro Bowls/All Pro selections under Alexander to multiple Pro Bowl/All Pro selections under lesser Oline coaches?

Alexander admittedly prefers "big" (read: fat ass) offensive linemen like Lutui.  Mudd preferred athletic offensive linemen.  That explains why Mathis was fat under Alexander's leadership and why he wasn't when he left to go play for Mudd.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-05-2016, 10:24 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Did you expect Mathis to thank Coach Mudd two seasons before he coached Mathis?  I know Coach Mudd is good, but he isn't so good players travel backwards through time to thank him before he has had a chance to coach them.

If Alexander is a good as you claim, why did Mathis have years of bad tape as you also claim?  Why did he go from backing up Nate Livings (who was out of the league one season after leaving the Bengals) to a starter after one preseason with the Eagles?  Why did he go from getting a vet minimum contract based upon years of bad tape under Alexander to a 5yr/$25M contract after a single season under Mudd?  Why did he go from having zero Pro Bowls/All Pro selections under Alexander to multiple Pro Bowl/All Pro selections under lesser Oline coaches?

Alexander admittedly prefers "big" (read: fat ass) offensive linemen like Lutui.  Mudd preferred athletic offensive linemen.  That explains why Mathis was fat under Alexander's leadership and why he wasn't when he left to go play for Mudd.

EXACTLY.....when the player tanks, the PA spin doctors blame the player, when a player does well, it's because PA is such a good coach.  It's really quite comical.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 10:24 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Did you expect Mathis to thank Coach Mudd two seasons before he coached Mathis?  I know Coach Mudd is good, but he isn't so good players travel backwards through time to thank him before he has had a chance to coach them.

he did nmot have to thank coach Mudd because Mudd had not coached him yet.  this was in 2009.  PFF aid he was as good as any guard then and that was BEFORE Mudd coached him.

(05-05-2016, 10:24 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If Alexander is a good as you claim, why did Mathis have years of bad tape as you also claim?  Why did he go from backing up Nate Livings (who was out of the league one season after leaving the Bengals) to a starter after one preseason with the Eagles?

This has been explained to you dozens of times.  Mathis got fat and out of shape for the '10 season.  Even he admitted this.  Mathis even posted a video showing himself getting back in shape before the '11 season.

Paul was giving Mathis starts in '09 when he was in shape and playing well.  He didn't give him any starts in '19 because Mathis was out of shape.  That is why Mathis had to settle for a league minimum contract after the '10 season despite playing so well in '09 before he got injured.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 10:39 AM)Wyche Wrote: EXACTLY.....when the player tanks, the PA spin doctors blame the player, when a player does well, it's because PA is such a good coach.  It's really quite comical.

Actually you are the one going through mental gymnastics to try and blame it all on Paul.  Here is what you are trying to argue.  . .  

"Paul was smart enough to start giving Mathis starts over Livings in '09 but then just totally forgot about that in '10 and stopped playing Mathis for no reason at all. Then for some reason every other team in the league also forgot that Mathis was good and only gave him a league minimum contract"


That makes no sense at all compared to the reality that i am explaining to you.  .  .  

"Mathis played well in '09 and started earning starts, but he got injured which effected his play for the rest of that season..  When he returned for the '10 season he was fat and out of shape.  He did not get to play much in '10 because he did not deserve to.  Then after the season he was forced to take a league minimum contract because of this.  However he admitted that he was fat and out of shape in '10 and even posted a video of himself getting back in shape for the '11 season.  When he got back in shape he was good again."


The only thing comical around here is that anyone would believe the first explanation instead of the second one.

[coachmcneil71]

(05-05-2016, 12:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually you are the one going through mental gymnastics to try and blame it all on Paul.  Here is what you are trying to argue.  . .  

"Paul was smart enough to start giving Mathis starts over Livings in '09 but then just totally forgot about that in '10 and stopped playing Mathis for no reason at all. Then for some reason every other team in the league also forgot that Mathis was good and only gave him a league minimum contract"


That makes no sense at all compared to the reality that i am explaining to you.  .  .  

"Mathis played well in '09 and started earning starts, but he got injured which effected his play for the rest of that season..  When he returned for the '10 season he was fat and out of shape.  He did not get to play much in '10 because he did not deserve to.  Then after the season he was forced to take a league minimum contract because of this.  However he admitted that he was fat and out of shape in '10 and even posted a video of himself getting back in shape for the '11 season.  When he got back in shape he was good again."


The only thing comical around here is that anyone would believe the first explanation instead of the second one.

 It's more than obvious that you have lost this jury counselor. If this debate were a trial your client went from receiving 5-10, to getting the chair! 

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 12:36 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote:  It's more than obvious that you have lost this jury counselor. If this debate were a trial your client went from receiving 5-10, to getting the chair! 

You are not the jury.

On my side of the jury I have PFF, FootballOutsiders, Sports Illustrated, and even Evan Mathis himself.

So it looks like I win.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-05-2016, 12:36 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote:  It's more than obvious that you have lost this jury counselor. If this debate were a trial your client went from receiving 5-10, to getting the chair! 

I agree with ya, fred is getting killed.

(05-05-2016, 01:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are not the jury.

On my side of the jury I have PFF, FootballOutsiders, Sports Illustrated, and even Evan Mathis himself.

So it looks like I win.

Face it dude, you're getting crushed.

[coachmcneil71]

(05-05-2016, 01:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are not the jury.

On my side of the jury I have PFF, FootballOutsiders, Sports Illustrated, and even Evan Mathis himself.

So it looks like I win.

 
I consider the majority of this board "the jury", so yes, I am on "the jury".

Wts, "the jury" has voted and it's like 20-1 against your argument.

 More power to you though Fred. Your tenacity embodies everything that I like about my new motto in life, "Just keep plowing!"