Rank our Backup QB

[Shake n Blake]

Quote:The simple truth of the matter is that Dalton and Mccarron are being compared so much because they are very comparable. I give Dalton the edge in experience and mobility and Mccarron seems to be more clutch and a more natural leader. Everything else is very close. I would classify both as game manager types who need a strong supporting cast to be successful. Niether one of these guys are going to carry a team. Put either one on a weak roster and I'll bet you that words like "Elite" and "Franchise QB" cease to be tossed around.

Thankfully, such disrespectful and asinine opinions about Dalton are becoming more rare. If you really believe that Dalton and McCarron are on the same level, that's a pretty lonely opinion to have. Dalton was considered a better prospect in the draft, he made throws all last season - on a rope - that I've never seen Mac make, and neither has looked good in the playoffs.

In regular season, Dalton has won big games on a regular basis. Seattle last season. Swept the Ravens 2 years running (and he was arguably the MVP of all those games). Pats. Packers. Broncos. Dalton has beaten pretty much every great team. Mac has beaten...the 49ers and Mallet-led Ravens?? How sad that some insist on comparing them when their resumes are miles apart.

People like you always insinuate that it's the talent around Dalton that "carries" him. I think 2014 put that theory to bed. The elite defense ranked 22nd that year. Eifert and MLJ were on IR. AJ missed 5 games. Yet we still won 10 games that year. How? Well if you check the game logs for those 10 wins, Dalton pretty much played well in all of them, despite having a receiving group that was patched together all year.

Last season, Dalton was on pace for 4200 yards and 33 TDs (37 if you count rush TDs) before his injury. That'd make for an interesting definition of "game manager". Meanwhile, if you take McCarron's 4 starts and average it out over a full season, it comes out to 3056 yards and 20 TDs. Now that would be game manager numbers.

[Brownshoe]

Not even close. Dalton has a MUCH better arm than McCarron. He has MUCH better pocket presences, and mobility. Honestly I don't know ONE thing McCarron has that's even close to being as good as Dalton. He wasn't a rookie either. He had his whole first year reading up the playbook, which helps a LOT. Playing QB half the battle is knowing the playbook, and how to call it.

[muskiesfan]

I don't want it to get twisted. I like McCarron and I think he's a good backup that may be a starter one day. I just don't see him starting for the Bengals because Dalton is much better than McCarron.

My point about the McCarron-Dalton comparisons is that people want to replace Dalton so bad that they would rather have a QB who was compared to Dalton and supposed to have a ceiling of Dalton rather than Dalton himself. Makes no sense.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-28-2016, 12:50 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Thankfully, such disrespectful and asinine opinions about Dalton are becoming more rare. If you really believe that Dalton and McCarron are on the same level, that's a pretty lonely opinion to have. Dalton was considered a better prospect in the draft, he made throws all last season - on a rope - that I've never seen Mac make, and neither has looked good in the playoffs.

In regular season, Dalton has won big games on a regular basis. Seattle last season. Swept the Ravens 2 years running (and he was arguably the MVP of all those games). Pats. Packers. Broncos. Dalton has beaten pretty much every great team. Mac has beaten...the 49ers and Mallet-led Ravens?? How sad that some insist on comparing them when their resumes are miles apart.

People like you always insinuate that it's the talent around Dalton that "carries" him. I think 2014 put that theory to bed. The elite defense ranked 22nd that year. Eifert and MLJ were on IR. AJ missed 5 games. Yet we still won 10 games that year. How? Well if you check the game logs for those 10 wins, Dalton pretty much played well in all of them, despite having a receiving group that was patched together all year.

Last season, Dalton was on pace for 4200 yards and 33 TDs (37 if you count rush TDs) before his injury. That'd make for an interesting definition of "game manager". Meanwhile, if you take McCarron's 4 starts and average it out over a full season, it comes out to 3056 yards and 20 TDs. Now that would be game manager numbers.

Oh nos!!!!! Pesky facts....

I REALLY like what AJ brings to the table as a backup. He's the epitome of game manager, and that's what you need from your backup.

Here's the issue with me: he played at Bama with a roster full of top round NFL prospects and a HOF coach and people are all like "Durr...he iz clutch and a winner....Super Bowlz here we are....durrrrr."

Dalton played at TCU, and helped bring the program to national prominence with a cast of good, but not elite, players and goes into the Rose Bowl against heavily favored, and much bigger and athletic Wisconsin and pulls out a thriller victory. "He's a bum....TCWho?"

Mc makes one or two good throws, and the rest are floaters...."Wow....did you see the zip on the 10 yard crossing pattern? John Elway-esque....Super Bowlz!"

Dalton has one or two bad balls, hits two or three 30 plus yard strikes and throws for 300+......"Gawd....he noodle armed those two throws. If not for those, the defense would have been rested, we woulda won by 40, and finally won a playoff game in week 6. Those three deep balls were slightly to the right, and made a weird shadow on the ground, Rex Burkhead and Greg Little bailed him out, or else we woulda lost by 30."

It's ***** crazy when you set back and really look at it. I don't understand the hate for the guy. He plays good, he does REALLY good things in the community, he rarely misses any time on the field, and he too has won at every level. Except by Jungle Noise logic, a cat who put up somewhat pedestrian numbers with an all world college team around him and a bum shoulder out of the 5th round, should start over him. Am I missing something here?

[BengalChris]

I didn't know Dalton was competing for the backup QB position.

Therefore, I'm not sure why he's even mentioned in this thread.

After a sub-average 2014 Dalton turned the corner in 2015 and I don't see any reason for that to stop unless he's let it all go to his head, which I doubt. It just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who thinks he's made the big time so let's just coast the rest of our career. There's zero Johnny Manziel in him.

As for our backup QB, McCarron is just fine and will work out for us at the position for the next two years and he'll be here until some other team offers him a boatload of money. I wouldn't be surprised if we draft a backup QB next year to groom as McCarron's replacement.

[OrlandoBengal]

(05-27-2016, 04:59 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: And the only reason why he was able to get the potential "game winning TD" was only because of the defense put him on the opponents side of the field, and they kept the game close enough to make that a potential "game winning TD". If the defense didn't play like a Superbowl caliber defense we would have been humiliated.

So basically what you're saying is that the defense did its job so that McCarron and the offense could do theirs?  Think back over the last couple of years, there have been plenty of times that the defense bailed out a Dalton run offense as well.

Is McCarron on the same level as Dalton right now?  No, he is not and should not be expected to be.  Dalton has five years of starting experience versus McCarron who was making his fifth NFL start.

[*Nately120*]

(05-27-2016, 08:53 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: And you keep ignoring the fact the only reason the Bengals did that under McCarron was because the people around McCarron, and not by McCarrons ability.

I'll remember how great the Bengals were at dragging their QB to victory when I hear someone say how awesome Dalton was in 2015.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-28-2016, 10:36 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: So basically what you're saying is that the defense did its job so that McCarron and the offense could do theirs?  Think back over the last couple of years, there have been plenty of times that the defense bailed out a Dalton run offense as well.

Is McCarron on the same level as Dalton right now?  No, he is not and should not be expected to be.  Dalton has five years of starting experience versus McCarron who was making his fifth NFL start.

True.....but.....Andy was better by his fifth start under a rookie OC with fellow rookies on his side of the ball and no OTAs than McCarron was in his fifth start under a seasoned OC, a veteran cast, and 2 years to learn. That always fails to get mentioned. I haven't seen excessive Bama homerism, nor mullsy like Dalton hatred lately, but we can't pretend like it doesn't exist. The guy was booed at a charity event FFS.

[*Nately120*]

(05-28-2016, 01:22 PM)Wyche Wrote: True.....but.....Andy was better by his fifth start under a rookie OC with fellow rookies on his side of the ball and no OTAs than McCarron was in his fifth start under a seasoned OC, a veteran cast, and 2 years to learn.  That always fails to get mentioned.  I haven't seen excessive Bama homerism, nor mullsy like Dalton hatred lately, but we can't pretend like it doesn't exist.  The guy was booed at a charity event FFS.

They weren't saying "BOOOOO" they were saying "Improoooooooooooooooove" and judging by this 2014 to 2015 stats I'd say he listened.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-28-2016, 01:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: They weren't saying "BOOOOO" they were saying "Improoooooooooooooooove" and judging by this 2014 to 2015 stats I'd say he listened.

Always good for comic relief......I'll give ya credit for that.

[bengal kitten uk]

With backup QBs, you have to make a choice between a young, promising QB who hasn't played much and an older, wiser QB who played a lot and wasn't good enough to be a starter.  Either way, you're not expecting much from a backup and the only stat that really matters is not a stat at all: "Can we win games with this guy?".

Now with that said, I'm a firm believer in the saying the QBs are moulded, not born.  Just look at Dalton.  Andy took five years to go from "young, with promise" to being our franchise quarterback.  

I'm not saying that AJ McCarron is the finished article, but if you go and compare his stats to those of Mr Dalton in their first 4.5 games (Dalton missed the second half against the Browns in his first game and AJ didn't start against Pittsburgh) you'll be hard pressed to find a difference between them.

They have very similar passing numbers. [Surprise!]
AJ takes more sacks, and as a result, concedes more fumbles. [I wonder if this was simply a reps thing meaning he wasn't as in sync with the line?]
Andy throws more interceptions. [Well documented!]
AJ has a higher Passer Rating. [Significantly]
AJ also ran more [although you might attribute this to him not being comfortable in the pocket]




Larger version is here: http://imgur.com/0CowRIt

[Brownshoe]

(05-28-2016, 10:36 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: So basically what you're saying is that the defense did its job so that McCarron and the offense could do theirs?  Think back over the last couple of years, there have been plenty of times that the defense bailed out a Dalton run offense as well.

Is McCarron on the same level as Dalton right now?  No, he is not and should not be expected to be.  Dalton has five years of starting experience versus McCarron who was making his fifth NFL start.

They never did that with Dalton in the playoffs, and Dalton has actually been clutch before, unlike McCarron.

[Brownshoe]

(05-28-2016, 12:57 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll remember how great the Bengals were at dragging their QB to victory when I hear someone say how awesome Dalton was in 2015.

You do realize that defense didn't start being dominate again until Burfict came back, right?

[Brownshoe]

(05-28-2016, 03:30 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: With backup QBs, you have to make a choice between a young, promising QB who hasn't played much and an older, wiser QB who played a lot and wasn't good enough to be a starter.  Either way, you're not expecting much from a backup and the only stat that really matters is not a stat at all: "Can we win games with this guy?".

Now with that said, I'm a firm believer in the saying the QBs are moulded, not born.  Just look at Dalton.  Andy took five years to go from "young, with promise" to being our franchise quarterback.  

I'm not saying that AJ McCarron is the finished article, but if you go and compare his stats to those of Mr Dalton in their first 4.5 games (Dalton missed the second half against the Browns in his first game and AJ didn't start against Pittsburgh) you'll be hard pressed to find a difference between them.

They have very similar passing numbers. [Surprise!]
AJ takes more sacks, and as a result, concedes more fumbles. [I wonder if this was simply a reps thing meaning he wasn't as in sync with the line?]
Andy throws more interceptions. [Well documented!]
AJ has a higher Passer Rating. [Significantly]
AJ also ran more [although you might attribute this to him not being comfortable in the pocket]




Larger version is here: http://imgur.com/0CowRIt

The reason why AJ took more sacks with a much better OL is because he has horrible pocket pressance, and keeps the ball WAAY too long for how bad his mobility is.
AJ had SIGNIFICANTLY better weapons than Dalton did his first few seasons. The best weapon Dalton had was a rookie WR, and he was lighyears better than anyone else on the roster.
To say McCarron is similar just because they had similar stats their first *5* starts is silly when you look at how different their offense around them were.

[rob]

the guy beat the 5-11 ravens, and the 5-11 49ers. then got beat by the steelers (who WERE NOT that great last year, if you were to watch them)

He couldn't even throw 220 yards against the 31st ranked secondary.....
He threw one touchdown pass against the 31st ranked secondary.....
His QBR was a 23.9!! a 23.9 QBR against the 31st ranked secondary.
HE COULD NOT SCORE 1 POINT IN 3 QUARTERS AGAINST A HISTORICALLY TERRIBLE DEFENSE.


If you think he is better than Andy Dalton, you are subject to your own opinion I guess. But opinions mean nothing. FACTS ARE FACTS.

The guy is over-hyped. It means 0 sense that we do not trade him this year. At all. NADA. Huge mistake by the Bengals.

Is he the worst back-up in the league? No, not even close. But will he be a legit starter in the NFL? No. Not at all.

['E']

(05-28-2016, 12:50 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Thankfully, such disrespectful and asinine opinions about Dalton are becoming more rare. If you really believe that Dalton and McCarron are on the same level, that's a pretty lonely opinion to have. Dalton was considered a better prospect in the draft, he made throws all last season - on a rope - that I've never seen Mac make, and neither has looked good in the playoffs.

In regular season, Dalton has won big games on a regular basis. Seattle last season. Swept the Ravens 2 years running (and he was arguably the MVP of all those games). Pats. Packers. Broncos. Dalton has beaten pretty much every great team. Mac has beaten...the 49ers and Mallet-led Ravens?? How sad that some insist on comparing them when their resumes are miles apart.

People like you always insinuate that it's the talent around Dalton that "carries" him. I think 2014 put that theory to bed. The elite defense ranked 22nd that year. Eifert and MLJ were on IR. AJ missed 5 games. Yet we still won 10 games that year. How? Well if you check the game logs for those 10 wins, Dalton pretty much played well in all of them, despite having a receiving group that was patched together all year.

Last season, Dalton was on pace for 4200 yards and 33 TDs (37 if you count rush TDs) before his injury. That'd make for an interesting definition of "game manager". Meanwhile, if you take McCarron's 4 starts and average it out over a full season, it comes out to 3056 yards and 20 TDs. Now that would be game manager numbers.

First of all , no I didn't say anything disrespectful. Second, my opininion is no more or less "asinine" than yours or anyone elses. I did not say that AJ is on the same level as Dalton. What I am saying is that if given the opportunity to play and develop, AJ could quickly get to or beyond Dalton's level and it wouldn't take him until his fifth year to show something more than average play. Also ,I'm not running for office around here so I'm fine with having a lonely opinion. Yes Dalton made alot of good throws and did it pretty consistently last year for the first time in his career. I hope that continues. As for the playoffs I gave Andy a pass his first two years. When he continued to stink it up for the next two, I was ready to move on. If he can pick up where he left off last year, and be something more than awful on the big stage, I will gladly hop on the bandwagon and be thrilled about being proven wrong.

Sure, Dalton has won some regular season games against good teams, good job, I hope to see more of that.

Ok here is my look at Andy's 10 wins of 2014.

@BAL (10-6)- 25-38, 301 with 1TD and 0 INT
GOOD GAME ! AJ Green had 131 YDS and 1 TD

Vs ATL(6-10) - 15-24, 252 with 1TD and 0 INT
Andy executed run heavy, dink and dunk fest well. Game manager type performance. Matt Ryan threw 3 INT. AJ Green not on the boxscore.

Vs TENN(2-14) - 15 - 23, 169 with 0 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance. Tenn was lousy Jake Locker threw 2 INT. AJ Green had 102 YDS

Vs BAL(10-6) - 21 - 28, 266 with 0 TD and 1INT
I'm going to say good game despite the pick. Nic game winning drive at the end.AJ Green not on the boxscore

Vs JAX(3-13) - 19 - 31, 233 with 2 TD and 2 INT
Game manager type performance. Hill ran wild and Jax was terrible. AJ Green had 44 YDS and 1 TD

@ NO(7-9) - 16 - 22, 220 with 3 TD and 0 INT
Good game against so-so NO team. Hill ran wild again. AJ Green had 127 YDS and 1 TD

@ HOU(9-7) - 24 - 35, 233 with 1 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance against Mallet led Texans. AJ Green had 121 YDS.

@ TB(2-14) - 19 - 27, 176 with 1 TD and 3 INT
Bad game against bad Bucs. AJ Green had 57 YDS and 1 TD

@ CLE(7-9) - 14 - 24, 117 with 0 TD and 1 INT
Bad game against Manziel led Browns. AJ Green had 49 YDS. Hill and Gio carried the Offense in this one

Vs DEN(12-4) - 17 - 26, 146 with 2 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance. Hill ran wild. Manning threw 4 INT. AJ Green was a decoy.

So here is "how" Andy Dalton won 10 games in 2014....

3 "good" games.
5 "game manager" wins.
2 wins where he won despite being terrible.

Also, not counting the decoy game against Denver, AJ Green played in 7 of those wins and had 100 YDS and/or a touchdown in 6 of those wins.

This is why "people like me" insinuate that Dalton is carried by a talented roster and why 2014 does not "put to bed" the fact that Andy Dalton has been a game manager at best for the first four seasons of his career.

Now as for 2015. Andy Dalton was mostly VERY good and I like that but I need to see more before I can forget what he has been for 4 years. As for the numbers that Andy and AJ were on pace for....5th year man Dalton's look very good and 5th game man Mccarron's look alot like Dalton in years 1 through 4.

[bengal kitten uk]

(05-28-2016, 03:54 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: The reason why AJ took more sacks with a much better OL is because he has horrible pocket pressance, and keeps the ball WAAY too long for how bad his mobility is.
AJ had SIGNIFICANTLY better weapons than Dalton did his first few seasons. The best weapon Dalton had was a rookie WR, and he was lighyears better than anyone else on the roster.
To say McCarron is similar just because they had similar stats their first *5* starts is silly when you look at how different their offense around them were.

You're blinded by your hate.

I'm not saying they're similar.

What I'm saying is that QBs get better over time and deciding after 5 games that he's never going to be good enough is a bit silly.  We had 4 years of people saying Dalton was only fit to be a backup, and yet here we are approaching year 6 and that conversation has been put to bed.  Why do you think AJM won't similarly continue to improve with experience?

I've heard experts say that if you get .500 out of your backup you'll be in good shape when the starter returns and AJM is definitely good enough to do that on this team.  Whether he'd be able to do that on the Browns is a different story - but when your starter can't even manage .500 nobody cares who the backup is.

[*Nately120*]

(05-28-2016, 03:50 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: You do realize that defense didn't start being dominate again until Burfict came back, right?

Burfict eh?  Well, I'll be ready to watch Dalton attempt to drag this pathetic team to victory for the first month of the 2016 season, then.

[Brownshoe]

(05-28-2016, 07:10 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Burfict eh?  Well, I'll be ready to watch Dalton attempt to drag this pathetic team to victory for the first month of the 2016 season, then.

So you're saying the defense played as good w/o Burfict? w/o Burfict the defense gave up 20.33 points per game (which would have made us 12th in points allowed if that trend continued), and 370 yards per game (which would have made us 23rd in yards per game if that trend continued). With Burfict the defense gave up 15.7 points per game, and 294 yards per game. That's a HUGE difference.

[Brownshoe]

[quote pid='223266' dateline='1464469868']

First of all , no I didn't say anything disrespectful. Second, my opininion is no more or less "asinine" than yours or anyone elses. I did not say that AJ is on the same level as Dalton. What I am saying is that if given the opportunity to play and develop, AJ could quickly get to or beyond Dalton's level and it wouldn't take him until his fifth year to show something more than average play. Also ,I'm not running for office around here so I'm fine with having a lonely opinion. Yes Dalton made alot of good throws and did it pretty consistently last year for the first time in his career. I hope that continues. As for the playoffs I gave Andy a pass his first two years. When he continued to stink it up for the next two, I was ready to move on. If he can pick up where he left off last year, and be something more than awful on the big stage, I will gladly hop on the bandwagon and be thrilled about being proven wrong.

Sure, Dalton has won some regular season games against good teams, good job, I hope to see more of that.

Ok here is my look at Andy's 10 wins of 2014.

@BAL (10-6)- 25-38, 301 with 1TD and 0 INT
GOOD GAME ! AJ Green had 131 YDS and 1 TD

Vs ATL(6-10) - 15-24, 252 with 1TD and 0 INT
Andy executed run heavy, dink and dunk fest well. Game manager type performance. Matt Ryan threw 3 INT. AJ Green not on the boxscore.

Vs TENN(2-14) - 15 - 23, 169 with 0 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance. Tenn was lousy Jake Locker threw 2 INT. AJ Green had 102 YDS

Vs BAL(10-6) - 21 - 28, 266 with 0 TD and 1INT
I'm going to say good game despite the pick. Nic game winning drive at the end.AJ Green not on the boxscore

Vs JAX(3-13) - 19 - 31, 233 with 2 TD and 2 INT
Game manager type performance. Hill ran wild and Jax was terrible. AJ Green had 44 YDS and 1 TD

@ NO(7-9) - 16 - 22, 220 with 3 TD and 0 INT
Good game against so-so NO team. Hill ran wild again. AJ Green had 127 YDS and 1 TD

@ HOU(9-7) - 24 - 35, 233 with 1 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance against Mallet led Texans. AJ Green had 121 YDS.

@ TB(2-14) - 19 - 27, 176 with 1 TD and 3 INT
Bad game against bad Bucs. AJ Green had 57 YDS and 1 TD

@ CLE(7-9) - 14 - 24, 117 with 0 TD and 1 INT
Bad game against Manziel led Browns. AJ Green had 49 YDS. Hill and Gio carried the Offense in this one

Vs DEN(12-4) - 17 - 26, 146 with 2 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance. Hill ran wild. Manning threw 4 INT. AJ Green was a decoy.

So here is "how" Andy Dalton won 10 games in 2014....

3 "good" games.
5 "game manager" wins.
2 wins where he won despite being terrible.

Also, not counting the decoy game against Denver, AJ Green played in 7 of those wins and had 100 YDS and/or a touchdown in 6 of those wins.

This is why "people like me" insinuate that Dalton is carried by a talented roster and why 2014 does not "put to bed" the fact that Andy Dalton has been a game manager at best for the first four seasons of his career.

Now as for 2015. Andy Dalton was mostly VERY good and I like that but I need to see more before I can forget what he has been for 4 years. As for the numbers that Andy and AJ were on pace for....5th year man Dalton's look very good and 5th game man Mccarron's look alot like Dalton in years 1 through 4.
[/quote]

Just ignore Dalton had almost no weapons that year. The only person he did have was an injured AJ green. That's why Green had those numbers. Plus on some games that we lost/tied Dalton played great, and the rest of the team played horrible. Even people like Tom Brady looks like game managers when they have no weapons. Just look at how he played in the game he didn't have Gronk in 2013. Game manager numbers as you would put it. Dalton has been a solid QB throughout his career, even when he didn't have much to work with like the vast majority of his career.