Andy Dalton, Corner Turned or Weapons Gone?

[XenoMorph]

(06-06-2016, 04:59 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well if you look at his overall performance year to year.. 2014 seems like the outlier and 2015 is the accumulated growth of a good QB.

if anything 2014 helped him learn how to survive without his weapons.. dispite no weapons we had a 10 win season and a playoff birth..

[Brownshoe]

(06-07-2016, 09:54 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: if anything 2014 helped him learn how to survive without his weapons.. dispite no weapons we had a 10 win season and a playoff birth..

Should have been 11 honestly. I felt so sick when we missed that short field goal to beat the Panthers.

[XenoMorph]

(06-07-2016, 09:57 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Should have been 11 honestly. I felt so sick when we missed that short field goal to beat the Panthers.

dude I was sitting behind the goal post nuge missed that final kick at...   the fans were tired after 5 quarters but after that everyone left in silence.

[Brownshoe]

(06-07-2016, 10:34 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: dude I was sitting behind the goal post nuge missed that final kick at...   the fans were tired after 5 quarters but after that everyone left in silence.

I had a bad feeling about that field goal, so I left my basement so I didn't have to watch it. The people I was watching the game with all said "OH MY GOD", and I knew what happened. I would have felt a lot better if it was a long FG, but a 36 yarder should be a walk in the park for a NFL kicker.

[Beaker]

(06-06-2016, 09:49 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Andy worked with House prior to his miserable 2014 campaign.  If you are going to give credit to House for the best season, he must also be given the blame for the worst season.

But it was also extremely noticable how Dalton started out 14 doing very well. Then his mechanics reverted and his productivity fell way off.( along with injuries to his WRs). Even Dalton admitted that he got away from what House taught him that season. He went back to House again and in 15 concentrated on maintaining what he had learned.

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2016, 09:47 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: If someone asked me if I would take LaFell over Marvin Jones before the season started in 2015 I would have said yes. If Boyd magically went back in time and have his rookie season last year I probably would have taken him over Sanu. I wouldn't take Kroft over Eifert, but let's be real here. We don't even know if Eifert is going to miss any games. I thought that Hue was a good OC, but I think most people overestimate him. There's a reason why he couldn't get a OC job, and had to become a RBs coach again.

So basically, 2015 was pants-crappingly awesome BUT you would have changed a whole bunch of things IF you had the chance/power to do so?  We shall see.  I honestly can't say if someone asked me during our great run in 2015 how much I would elect to change about the offense that I would say "Both WRs who aren't Green, maybe see what Kroft can do, and let's lose Hue for our QB coach" but again, I'm just being honest about my own feelings.

[Brownshoe]

(06-07-2016, 11:47 AM)Nately120 Wrote: So basically, 2015 was pants-crappingly awesome BUT you would have changed a whole bunch of things IF you had the chance/power to do so?  We shall see.  I honestly can't say if someone asked me during our great run in 2015 how much I would elect to change about the offense that I would say "Both WRs who aren't Green, maybe see what Kroft can do, and let's lose Hue for our QB coach" but again, I'm just being honest about my own feelings.

And I'm being honest about my feelings. You would be hard pressed to find much praise from me about Sanu, and you might find some praise to Marvin Jones. Hell I even thought that LaFell was better than Jones going into the 2015 season, and I even posted about it (I'll try and find the post and edit it here). Again, Eifert might not miss ANY games next season, so I don't know why Kroft is being put out there.

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2016, 11:56 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: And I'm being honest about my feelings. You would be hard pressed to find much praise from me about Sanu, and you might find some praise to Marvin Jones. Hell I even thought that LaFell was better than Jones going into the 2015 season, and I even posted about it (I'll try and find the post and edit it here). Again, Eifert might not miss ANY games next season, so I don't know why Kroft is being put out there.

Well, nothing can be proven now but your scenario requires Lafell to not be injured/ineffective last year, Eifert to not be injured this year (which he currently is, and tends to be during the season, regardless), and for our rookie WRs to contribute in a way that our rookie WRs haven't done outside of a top 4 pick.  Take into account that you used the fact that Hue couldn't immediately get an OC job (after being fired from Oakland) as a knock against him, yet don't seem to hold the fact that Zampese couldn't get an OC job in nearly 20 years in the NFL against him.

Again, the Bengals are a good team with a good QB and everything might be hunkydory (or however that is spelled), I just happen to think the optimism going into this year is requiring a whole lot of convolution and hoping.  2015 was a great season and it seems like we got there based upon consistency and getting pieces back and getting more familiar with our system, but maybe shaking things up will work out for the best. 

[Brownshoe]

(06-07-2016, 12:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, nothing can be proven now but your scenario requires Lafell to not be injured/ineffective last year, Eifert to not be injured this year (which he currently is, and tends to be during the season, regardless), and for our rookie WRs to contribute in a way that our rookie WRs haven't done outside of a top 4 pick.  Take into account that you used the fact that Hue couldn't immediately get an OC job (after being fired from Oakland) as a knock against him, yet don't seem to hold the fact that Zampese couldn't get an OC job in nearly 20 years in the NFL against him.

Again, the Bengals are a good team with a good QB and everything might be hunkydory (or however that is spelled), I just happen to think the optimism going into this year is requiring a whole lot of convolution and hoping.  2015 was a great season and it seems like we got there based upon consistency and getting pieces back and getting more familiar with our system, but maybe shaking things up will work out for the best. 

It's hard for rookie WRs to make an impact if they're drafted late. The last 3 WRs that we drafted in the 1st or 2nd round are (other than this year)... Green, Simpson, Chad. Two out of the 3 were great players, so I'm going with the odds that Boyd will be at least better than Sanu. He doesn't even have to be great to be better than Sanu either.

While Eifert is injured right now the worst case scenario is him missing the first couple games. It's not like he's going to be out all season. Plus LaFell isn't going to be starting the season hurt, so why wouldn't you expect him to get his ~700ish 5-6 TDs a season?

Zampese should know exactly what Daltons strengths and weaknesses are since he's been with him Dalton's whole career. Plus I think he will let Dalton do what Hue let him do all last year, and that's audible constantly. I don't think there will be a big difference in play calling since Dalton was such a big influence in the play calling last year.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2016, 12:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, nothing can be proven now but your scenario requires Lafell to not be injured/ineffective last year,

Last year Lafell averaged 13.9 yards per catch and 46.8 receiving yards per game while Marvin Jones averaged 12.6 and 51.0.  Do you think Marvin Jones was "ineffective" last year?  

It looks to me like Lafell might be an upgrade.  Lafells career numbers (13.9 and 44.3) are superior to Jones (12.9 and 40.2), and Jones never had a season as good as Lafell's last healthy season ('2014....74 rec...953 yds)

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2016, 12:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Last year Lafell averaged 13.9 yards per catch and 46.8 receiving yards per game while Marvin Jones averaged 12.6 and 51.0.  Do you think Marvin Jones was "ineffective" last year?  

It looks to me like Lafell might be an upgrade.  Lafells career numbers (13.9 and 44.3) are superior to Jones (12.9 and 40.2), and Jones never had a season as good as Lafell's last healthy season ('2014....74 rec...953 yds)

I'm not saying Lafell isn't an upgrade THIS year, I'm saying he might not have been an upgrade LAST YEAR.  This entire scenario requires us to imagine if people are injured vs. uninjured and otherwise concoct scenarios that can neither be tested nor proven.

Whatever, I'll relent.  We're better now.  2015 was great, but changes were made for the better.

Zampese > Hue
Lafell > Jones
Core/Boyd/19th round nobody > Sanu
Eifert is fine, totally not hurt and even if he is hurt....
Kroft is Eifert
Hill will be back to form

so on and so forth.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2016, 01:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not saying Lafell isn't an upgrade THIS year, I'm saying he might not have been an upgrade LAST YEAR.  This entire scenario requires us to imagine if people are injured vs. uninjured and otherwise concoct scenarios that can neither be tested nor proven.

Whatever, I'll relent.  We're better now.  2015 was great, but changes were made for the better.

Zampese > Hue
Lafell > Jones
Core/Boyd/19th round nobody > Sanu
Eifert is fine, totally not hurt and even if he is hurt....
Kroft is Eifert
Hill will be back to form

so on and so forth.

Funny how you call anything positive to be "convolution and hoping", yet treat your claim that Eifert and Lafell will both miss the season with injury as proven "facts".

Eifert missed 3 games with injury last year, but for some reason if we don't all assume he will be injured much worse this year we are all guilty of "convolution".

[muskiesfan]

I always see people relying on the experts when it has come to bashing Andy. If there were articles that supported beating Andy down, they were always quoted and used as support of why Andy just isn't good. People like to ignore the fact that Andy was missing so many pieces in 2014, until it's time to make another playoff loss excuse. At least 2015 happened and people have finally started to back off of Dalton. He's been better than he's been given credit for since being here. I believe he has turned the corner and 2016 will be another great year for him.

Why the all the mention of experts? Many experts including former QBs have always pointed to year 5 being the breakout year for QBs. Obviously some do it sooner, some do it later, and for some it never happens at all. Year 5 has always been the all important season for QBs. Unfortunately, we live in an instant gratification society. Dalton's breakout year should have been no surprise to all of the fans who let experts decide their opinions. For recent example, year 5 Flacco had his playoff run and Matt Ryan finally won a playoff game. I have no idea why no one thought or was willing to give Dalton until year 5 considering that's what the timeline tends to be. Dalton has been a solid QB his entire career and made the leap in year 5 like most experts expect QBs to. Now that he has the experience and the game has "slowed down" for him, I fully expect Dalton to be at least a top 10 QB moving forward.

[OrlandoBengal]

(06-06-2016, 07:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: However, I think Hue is a tremendous loss.  I also think Zampese is a lazy hire. In my mind, good chance we see a big drop-off in both creativity and enthusiasm here, translating to, an overall, lesser unit.

So I think you see something that falls in between the production of old and the production of last year.  Somewhere around a high 80's to mid 90's rating, with an above average stat line, but not elite, putting him in the top 8-14 category of QB's.

Agree with this.  I am afraid there is a reason Zampese did not get an OC job in almost 20 NFL years, and was passed up twice by this very organization when the job was open.  Assuming Eifert does not miss much time, I'm not overly concerned with the receiving corps.  And while I hope Andy continues his work with House, I think he should be good as well.  For me, it all comes down to Zampese and I consider him a huge unknown at this point.

[Daddy-O]

(06-07-2016, 01:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not saying Lafell isn't an upgrade THIS year, I'm saying he might not have been an upgrade LAST YEAR.  This entire scenario requires us to imagine if people are injured vs. uninjured and otherwise concoct scenarios that can neither be tested nor proven.

Whatever, I'll relent.  We're better now.  2015 was great, but changes were made for the better.

Zampese > Hue
Lafell > Jones
Core/Boyd/19th round nobody > Sanu
Eifert is fine, totally not hurt and even if he is hurt....
Kroft is Eifert
Hill will be back to form

so on and so forth.

Hard to do all the speculation but has Lafell ever played opposite the caliber of receiver of AJ Green?  Not sure he was the #2 when Randy Moss ran wild.

[Shake n Blake]

(06-07-2016, 01:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not saying Lafell isn't an upgrade THIS year, I'm saying he might not have been an upgrade LAST YEAR.  This entire scenario requires us to imagine if people are injured vs. uninjured and otherwise concoct scenarios that can neither be tested nor proven.

Whatever, I'll relent.  We're better now.  2015 was great, but changes were made for the better.

1. Zampese > Hue
2. Lafell > Jones
3. Core/Boyd/19th round nobody > Sanu
4. Eifert is fine, totally not hurt and even if he is hurt....
5. Kroft is Eifert
6. Hill will be back to form

so on and so forth.

1. I'll give you this. Hue was great for this team, while Zampese is an unknown. 

2. Not sure I'd say LaFell > Jones, but I do think it's closer than some think. 

3. Lets face it. Sanu had 390 yards and 0 TDs last year. Is it really a tall order for a 2nd round prospect to replace that? Heck, Jordan Shipley (a 3rd rounder) had 600 yards and 3 TDs as a rookie.

4. Eifert is hurt, but as of now it doesn't look like he'll miss more than 2-4 games. Like Fred pointed out, he missed 3 last year. 

5. We don't really need him to be. He was solid filling in for a few games last year. I expect the same this year. I'm surprised more people aren't hyped about Kroft. He wasn't some late round scrub. He was a 3rd round pick, and he looked good filling in last year.

6. Imo, Hill can only go up from 2015. So this is actually one positive for this year. 

_________________________

I don't think we're in better shape for 2016, but I do think we're better off than some seem to believe. What's more likely?

A.
Eifert is going to miss damn near the whole season
LaFell is going to be Brandon Tate 2.0 combined with Ted Ginn's hands
Boyd is going to be utterly useless and put up less than 390 yards and 0 TDs
The offense will be in shambles with Zampese, even with Dalton's input

or...

B. 
Eifert will only miss a few games, same as last year
LaFell will be productive (say 700ish yards) just as most of our secondary WRs have (Simpson, MLJ, Sanu, Hawkins)
Boyd will help fill the massive void left by Sanu 
We might miss Hue some, but the offense will still be one of the league's best, with guys like Dalton, Green, Gio, Eifert, etc leading the way

Pretty easy choice for me, and fwiw, I don't think we need the offense to be as great as last year's in order to make a playoff run. For example, the Broncos offense was blah all last season. If Dalton is healthy and this offense is even close to what it was, then the Bengals should be a SB favorite in 2016. The only reason they probably won't be is 0-7.


 

[OrlandoBengal]

(06-07-2016, 04:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 4. Eifert is hurt, but as of now it doesn't look like he'll miss more than 2-4 games. Like Fred pointed out, he missed 3 last year. 


_________________________





 

I think people are concerned about Eifert for a couple reasons.  First, the guy does not seem to heal very quick.  Second, this team does not have the greatest history when it comes to feet and ankles.  We can all think of times when guys were out much longer than expected.  And third, we're Bengals fans... we've come to expect something to go wrong...

[Shake n Blake]

(06-07-2016, 03:40 PM)Daddy-O Wrote: Hard to do all the speculation but has Lafell ever played opposite the caliber of receiver of AJ Green?  Not sure he was the #2 when Randy Moss ran wild.

He was opposite Steve Smith for 3 years with a competent QB. In those 3 years, he averaged 639 yards and 4 TDs. Not far off from Marvin Jones' numbers. 

Keep in mind that the Panthers were a less productive passing offense that averaged 494 attempts in those 3 seasons.

During the Dalton era, the Bengals have averaged 534 pass attempts.

700+ yards and 4-5 scores seems very reasonable for a guy like LaFell, in this offense playing opposite AJ Green.

[BFritz21]

(06-07-2016, 11:56 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: And I'm being honest about my feelings. You would be hard pressed to find much praise from me about Sanu, and you might find some praise to Marvin Jones. Hell I even thought that LaFell was better than Jones going into the 2015 season, and I even posted about it (I'll try and find the post and edit it here). Again, Eifert might not miss ANY games next season, so I don't know why Kroft is being put out there.

I'm hoping that we go with a good amount of two tight end sets because everyone knows that it's my belief that it's the easiest way to beat the 3-4 defense of the division, and not to mention that it would keep defenses in the middle of the field and leave AJ on an island, not to mention helping Boyd/Core/Lafell.

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2016, 02:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Funny how you call anything positive to be "convolution and hoping", yet treat your claim that Eifert and Lafell will both miss the season with injury as proven "facts".

Eifert missed 3 games with injury last year, but for some reason if we don't all assume he will be injured much worse this year we are all guilty of "convolution".

Lafell was injured last year and Eifert is injured every year, as well as right flippin' now.  I'm not sure what part of those statements aren't fact.  I'm not betting my left nut that either or both will miss any games this year, but saying 2015 Lafell was a clear upgrade over 2015 Jones doesn't make sense to me.  

The convolution comes into play when people start explaining how our offense was top-tier in 2015 BUT now that we've replaced our OC with a QB coach and our #2 and #3 WRs with a FA that hauled in a grand total of 0 TDs (which totally wasn't his fault because _____) and a stable of guys who haven't played a snap yet.  Also, Eifert is hurt, but he's totally NOT hurt, and he won't miss time, and even if he does miss time we have some other TE that is going to be fine even though we spent the past calendar year pleasuring ourselves to the glory that is Eifert.

Oh, and Dalton will be fine because Zampese is going to keep the same system, but it's ok that Lafell and Boyd/Core/Binns don't know this system because _______!

Ehh, don't mind me...I've just been in "Ye gods, what next?!" mode since 2015 convinced me Hue might know his head from a hole in the ground just in time for him to leave, coupled with the parade of bad news about Eifert's "totally not a big deal" sprain. Eifert is great, but I'm burned already because I would steel my heart for his mid to late season injury, but now he's starting the season injured, too? EeP!

Who knows, the Steelers offense was really good last year and they're missing their WR and TE so maybe we should brace ourselves for them getting better too? Lord, I bet if they replaced Todd Haley with Randy Fichtner we'd quaking in our boots!