Andy Dalton, Corner Turned or Weapons Gone?

[Brownshoe]

(06-09-2016, 03:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So basically the Bengals and other teams were skeptical of Lafell for the same reasons I've cited and occasionally been criticized for stating?  Damn, just call me Duke flippin' Tobin!

Teams were already in talks with Jones and Sanu. It's not like they take the first deal they are dealt. It takes weeks of negotiation before someone signs a contract. LaFell just hit the market a few days before Jones or Sanu was signed. Even you agree that LaFell is much better than Sanu, so why did Sanu get so much money?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-09-2016, 04:26 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Teams were already in talks with Jones and Sanu. It's not like they take the first deal they are dealt. It takes weeks of negotiation before someone signs a contract. LaFell just hit the market a few days before Jones or Sanu was signed. Even you agree that LaFell is much better than Sanu, so why did Sanu get so much money?

The Falcons were fools.

[Joelist]

The Falcons were willing to overpay to get an experienced WR opposite Julio Jones, as otherwise they were going with Eric Weems at WR and Jacob Tamme at TE. Shades of us in 2014.

[XenoMorph]

(06-09-2016, 04:26 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Teams were already in talks with Jones and Sanu. It's not like they take the first deal they are dealt. It takes weeks of negotiation before someone signs a contract. LaFell just hit the market a few days before Jones or Sanu was signed. Even you agree that LaFell is much better than Sanu, so why did Sanu get so much money?

Sanu did nothing to earn that big of a contract just look at his stats.  unless they are hiring him for his disappearing act.

[GreenCornBengal]

(06-10-2016, 10:01 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Sanu did nothing to earn that big of a contract just look at his stats.  unless they are hiring him for his disappearing act.

Sanu had that sweet 76 yard TD against Atlanta in 2014... I guess that is all they remember.

[*Nately120*]

(06-09-2016, 04:26 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Teams were already in talks with Jones and Sanu. It's not like they take the first deal they are dealt. It takes weeks of negotiation before someone signs a contract. LaFell just hit the market a few days before Jones or Sanu was signed. Even you agree that LaFell is much better than Sanu, so why did Sanu get so much money?

Sanu was overpaid, I'm not denying that.  This is about Lafell vs MLJ AND if Lafell is better I can't honestly believe the Lions, Bengals, and anyone else who was interested was like:

Well, we could sign MLJ OR Lafell who is better and is 1/3rd the cost and will take a short-term deal vs. a long term deal with more guarantees BUT Lafell has only been a FA for like a week, so forget it!  There is no denying that IF Lafell is as good or better than MLJ that the Bengals dodged a bullet by being out-bid by the lions.

For some reason the Bengals, if no one else, valued MLJ far above Lafell.  We like to have faith in Marvin/Tobin and our FO, so we have to wonder why we are so dismissive of MLJ since the Bengals value him so much higher than his replacement, that's all.

[fredtoast]

This is getting silly.

"Marvin Jones is so much better than Lafell, and the contract he received proves it, but when it comes to Sanu the contract value is meaningless."

Lafell is almost 4 years older than Jones and Sanu. He will be 30 this year.  That is the main reason he did not get as much in free agency.

[*Nately120*]

(06-10-2016, 12:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is getting silly.

"Marvin Jones is so much better than Lafell, and the contract he received proves it, but when it comes to Sanu the contract value is meaningless."

Lafell is almost 4 years older than Jones and Sanu. He will be 30 this year.  That is the main reason he did not get as much in free agency.

Are you ascribing that absurd viewpoint to me?  I'm only looking at what THE BENGALS offered Lafell and MLJ.

[fredtoast]

(06-10-2016, 12:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are you ascribing that absurd viewpoint to me?  I'm only looking at what THE BENGALS offered Lafell and MLJ.

Do you think Sanu is better than Lafell because he was paid more in free agency?  How much did the Bengals offer Sanu?

The Bengals offered Jones more than Lafell for the same reason as everyone else.  Jones is almost 4 years younger than Lafell.

[*Nately120*]

(06-10-2016, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Do you think Sanu is better than Lafell because he was paid more in free agency?  How much did the Bengals offer Sanu?

The Bengals offered Jones more than Lafell for the same reason as everyone else.  Jones is almost 4 years younger than Lafell.

Ok, let's see...


1. Do you think Sanu is better than Lafell because he was paid more in free agency? 
----No

2. How much did the Bengals offer Sanu?
----I don't know...is Lafell here to replace Sanu or MLJ?  Will we know until we see if Boyd or Core can be a #2 WR?

3.  The Bengals offered Jones more than Lafell for the same reason as everyone else.  Jones is almost 4 years younger than Lafell.
----Ok, fair enough.  It just seems to me that this line of thinking goes against our own optimistic views that last year was an aberration and that Lafell can/will return to levels of performance he experienced when he was roughly the age and experience of today's MLJ.  He's also 3 years older and has 2 more seasons in the NFL, so 4 years could be seen as a bit of a stretch, really.

[*Nately120*]

Ok, so you aren't counting Marvin's missed season as a season in the NFL...that's all well and good, but I'm not sure people see an entire missed season and add it to the positives pile as "more youthful."

Lafell is 29
MLJ is 26

Lafell was drafted in 2010
MLJ was drafted in 2012


None of that adds up to "4 years younger" in my book, is all I'm saying. Contracts don't tell the whole story, but Lafell getting 1-year deal and 2.5 million to MLJ's 5 years and 40 million makes me skeptical Lafell is clearly the better WR, regardless of his age. I assumed the plan was to use Lafell to replace Sanu and draft a WR in the 1st to replace MLJ. WRs then went on a fire-sale in the 1st and now we're trying to be positive about Lafell being the same or better than MLJ when the actions the Bengals, if not the Lions as well, indicate otherwise.

But nothing is won in the off-season, so we shall see.

[Brownshoe]

(06-10-2016, 06:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ok, so you aren't counting Marvin's missed season as a season in the NFL...that's all well and good, but I'm not sure people see an entire missed season and add it to the positives pile as "more youthful."

Lafell is 29
MLJ is 26

Lafell was drafted in 2010
MLJ was drafted in 2012


None of that adds up to "4 years younger" in my book, is all I'm saying.  Contracts don't tell the whole story, but Lafell getting 1-year deal and 2.5 million to MLJ's 5 years and 40 million makes me skeptical Lafell is clearly the better WR, regardless of his age.  I assumed the plan was to use Lafell to replace Sanu and draft a WR in the 1st to replace MLJ.  WRs then went on a fire-sale in the 1st and now we're trying to be positive about Lafell being the same or better than MLJ when the actions the Bengals, if not the Lions as well, indicate otherwise.

But nothing is won in the off-season, so we shall see.

Replace Marvin Jones with Sanu... That's why you're ignoring how much Sanu got paid but not Marvin Jones. With you logic I could say "I don't know if Tom Brady is better than Flacco. Tom Brady has a 14 mil salary cap hit this year, but Flacco has a 22.55 mil salary cap hit, so it makes me skeptical Brady is clearly a better QB".

[ItsOdellThurman]

Put it this way.

Marvin Jones' got paid for what his ceiling "could be." A top 15-20 WR.

Brandon LaFell got paid for what his floor "was" last year. An awful WR.

Obviously the Bengals are hoping to get more than the floor from LaFell. If that's all he gives, then Marvin Jones will out-produce him in half a season.

[*Nately120*]

(06-10-2016, 08:17 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Replace Marvin Jones with Sanu... That's why you're ignoring how much Sanu got paid but not Marvin Jones. With you logic I could say "I don't know if Tom Brady is better than Flacco. Tom Brady has a 14 mil salary cap hit this year, but Flacco has a 22.55 mil salary cap hit, so it makes me skeptical Brady is clearly a better QB".

Sanu was overpaid, where am I denying this?  You are arguing against a point I never made. Also, using Tom Brady as an example for anything regarding an NFL-related argument is pretty spotty.

[Brownshoe]

(06-10-2016, 08:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Sanu was overpaid, where am I denying this?  You are arguing against a point I never made.  Also, using Tom Brady as an example for anything regarding an NFL-related argument is pretty spotty.

So is it not possible that Jones got overpaid, or LaFell got underpaid? And using Tom Brady as an example isn't spotty. It destroys your argument.

[*Nately120*]

(06-10-2016, 08:39 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: So is it not possible that Jones got overpaid, or LaFell got underpaid? And using Tom Brady as an example isn't spotty. It destroys your argument.

Lordy, I'll explain this one last time and then take leave of this thread for my sanity.

The BENGALS were TRYING to give Jones significantly MORE than they were willing to give Lafell, which makes me wonder why people who are so SUPPORTIVE of this front office's ability to gather talent are so SURE Lafell is so comparable to Jones.

I'd honestly ask how the salary of a 6th round pick QB with 4 SB rings in NE has anything to do with plugging a roster gap with an aged bargain-bin FA WR in Cincy, but god help me I simply have had my fill of your circuitous nonsense and don't feel like going down another unrelated path. 

[bengalsturntup5532]

I loved daltons attitude at the beginning,But i did see that go away before He got injured. He made me shutup about mccaron. Dalton doesnt hang on to the ball too long He actually throws it,hes not the perfect pocket passer like carson was,sit back and let people get open and have a big arm. Hes in a system here,alot of quick passes,and designed routes. Alot of slants and screens.as long as He got his safety blankets,gio and eifert He shouldny drop off.it also helps boyd has hands of glue.

[Brownshoe]

(06-10-2016, 09:13 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Lordy, I'll explain this one last time and then take leave of this thread for my sanity.

The BENGALS were TRYING to give Jones significantly MORE than they were willing to give Lafell, which makes me wonder why people who are so SUPPORTIVE of this front office's ability to gather talent are so SURE Lafell is so comparable to Jones.

I'd honestly ask how the salary of a 6th round pick QB with 4 SB rings in NE has anything to do with plugging a roster gap with an aged bargain-bin FA WR in Cincy, but god help me I simply have had my fill of your circuitous nonsense and don't feel like going down another unrelated path. 

How does negotiation work? The Bengals had extreme leverage over LaFell since all the teams that wanted a WR out of free agency got one, or they already spent their money, so there wasn't a lot of money to go around. You act like free agency prices are static, but they change in huge variables depending on who is in free agency, and how much teams are able to spend.

[*SHRacerX*]

I haven't had a chance to read through all the responses yet, so I apologize if someone already mentioned this, but my single only fear with Andy is that he reverts to forcing the ball to AJ Green. When Dalton destroys a defense (and he did that a lot last year), it is because he is spreading the ball around and attacking the defense's weakness.

Yes, AJ needs his touches, but not when he is blanketed with double coverage. He still finds ways to get open, and that is when Dalton will hit him. He simply can't force the ball to AJ. Other than that, I am very confident in his ability to lead them to a Super Bowl Championship.

[BoomerFan]

(06-10-2016, 08:27 PM)ItsOdellThurman Wrote: Put it this way.

Marvin Jones' got paid for what his ceiling "could be."  A top 15-20 WR.

Brandon LaFell got paid for what his floor "was" last year.  An awful WR.

Obviously the Bengals are hoping to get more than the floor from LaFell.  If that's all he gives, then Marvin Jones will out-produce him in half a season.

Perhaps, but I'm worried when I read in the most recent Hobson article:

While {Brandon LaFell} learns the offense, the drops that plagued him late last year in New England have surfaced from time to time this spring, but they think the more he’s in system the more consistent he’ll become . . .


Then you have:


With Pro Bowl tight end Tyler Eifert (ankle) out for training camp, Tyler Kroft and C.J. Uzomah have had very encouraging springs catching the ball and getting open . .. Eastern Kentucky free agent Matt Lengel, who spent all last season on the practice squad, has also shown improvement . . .


OK, why not move Kroft or Uzomah to WR and let Jake Fisher get more reps at TE then. Look, catching the ball is great, but a TE needs to be able block almost as well as a lineman. Winston is apparently doing a great job at right tackle now, so this would seem to solve a lot of problems better than hoping that Lafell will someday learn how to catch a football at the pro-level.