McCarron hype gaining steam

[BritishBengal]

What on earth have I started here?!

[*bfine32*]

(07-05-2015, 03:08 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Well, we got something correct here.

Sooooo, a low YPC or an even lower Yards per route run (1.29, which btw is 15th out 19 TEs who played 50% of their teams snaps) isn't his fault because he wasn't the signal caller. How about averaging only 4.2 yards after catch per reception (19th out of 35 TEs who played 50% of their teams snaps).

In his time here, he was a solid red zone target, a dump off man, a good effort guy, and a borderline knucklehead. A weapon... not so sure.

Am I the only one that finds it strange the you and Zerker NEVER disagree about anything and usually come to the aid of each other?

I do remember that he was among the league's best in YAC in 2013. 
http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/8328/bengals-jermaine-gresham-tyler-eifert-yards-after-catch-factoid

Matter of fact this shows that he got over half his total yards in YAC every year in stripes but one.
http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/jermaine-gresham-player-stats

He also had the 1st or 2nd best Playoff game of any TE that year and on of the few that had 2 good playoff games as a Bengal 

If you and yout alter don't consider a TE that had over 45 catches every year he was here a weapon; then we just disagree

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-05-2015, 06:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Am I the only one that finds it strange the you and Zerker NEVER disagree about anything and usually come to the aid of each other?

I do remember that he was among the league's best in YAC in 2013. 
http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/8328/bengals-jermaine-gresham-tyler-eifert-yards-after-catch-factoid

Matter of fact this shows that he got over half his total yards in YAC every year in stripes but one.
http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/jermaine-gresham-player-stats

He also had the 1st or 2nd best Playoff game of any TE that year and on of the few that had 2 good playoff games as a Bengal 

If you and yout alter don't consider a TE that had over 45 catches every year he was here a weapon; then we just disagree

Lol. Hilarious you of all people accuse someone of having an alt profile Tommy.

You still haven't actually provided anything to say he wasn't anything other than a better Reggie Kelly. 
No one said he was bad. Just that he isn't as good as you apparently think he was. 
But typical bfine getting his panties ruffled over the use of an adverb. 

[*Awful Llama*]

(07-05-2015, 06:42 PM)BritishBengal Wrote: What on earth have I started here?!

500+ posts of feces-flinging anarchy, that's what! Woo-hoo.

You can't post something postitive about McCarron without it be interpreted by some as an all-out assault on Dalton. Once AD is mentioned, then everyone just takes their accustomed homer/hater spot, Marvin, Gresh and an assorted cast of other characters get dragged in, then 'round and 'round we go.

Try not to blame yourself.

[GodFather]

(07-05-2015, 06:42 PM)BritishBengal Wrote: What on earth have I started here?!

A shit storm

[Shake n Blake]

(07-04-2015, 11:53 AM)PDub80 Wrote: 1. QB's performance is not solely just effecting the WR/TEs and their stats. Other things go on in-game that the QB is in control of that influence the running game as well.
2. ADs 7+ turnovers in 4 games ABSOLUTELY effects the defense.
3. The first two playoff games are irrelevant to AD's performances or the team's results.
4. Those blaming the coach's poor performances from the 2005-2010 seasons need to stop living in the past. Marvin Lewis, and his staff, has become much better since the reboot in 2011 at game management, etc. Jay Gruden did have a silly game plan in that first game against the Texans to go away from the Bengals best player, but the on field performances are what the biggest problem was.
5. No one within reason should be calling for Marvin Lewis' head in 2015. He is a much better coach than the 2010 version that should have been run out of town.
6. No one should be blamed anyone on the Bengals for the Playoff loss to the Colts.
7. AD was AWFUL... not just bad... AWFUL in the 3 previous playoff games. Anyone surprised by this at this point hasn't been watching with open eyes. He's a streaky player and as inconsistent as the weather. Period.
8. What about 8 seasons of prime time choking? AGAIN, the coaching staff and team as a whole has been MUCH improved from 2011-present so that can't be laid on or off of them completely.
9. Why can't the QB bail out the D when it matters most? Or turn around a tough first quarter? He hasn't shown the ability to when the pressure is on. Period.

I've been too busy to give this a proper response, but I finally have some free time. So here goes:

1. I get that, but let's be real. You anti-Andy guys blow it wayyy out of proportion. A QB has more affect on the game than any other single player, but Andy Dalton is not the reason the defense has been miserable, and he's not the reason we haven't had any big playoff rushing performances since CedBen shredded the Jets. Btw, Ced's QB had a 58.3 passer rating in that game, with an INT and a fumble. How was Ced able to have such a big game? By your logic, this should be next to impossible.

2. Dalton had 1 turnover against the Colts and 1 turnover in the Texans 2.0 game. The defense played the same. Same struggles against the run and pass, same lack of forced turnovers and sacks.

3. The choke jobs from '05 and '09 are very relevant, considering it's Marvin Lewis I'm blaming for our current struggles in the same situations. 

4.  Sure the team has improved as far as year-to-year consistency, but the subject here is prime-time and playoff games. How has Marvin improved in this area?

5. See #4

6. I'm mixed on this. Sure we were missing a lot of guys, especially on offense, but the defense was once again a big disappointment. They gave up a season high in pass yardage and they got torched by a 3rd string RB (Boom Herron). 

7. I agree.

8. See #4, and you are avoiding the question. The team has always choked in the bright lights under Marv, and nothing has changed in that regard.

9. Agreed, but you can say that about everyone on the team. Asking "why can't Andy bail out the defense" is no different than me asking "why hasn't the defense bailed out Andy with a few turnovers of their own?". The fire and big plays that we see on a regular basis during the regular season have disappeared during the playoffs. No turnovers, no sacks. Nothing. It's been the same song and dance in every...single...game.

Terrible QB play, a defense that plays timid and gets burned by big plays (both running and passing). No matter how many turnovers the QB has, the defense looks the same. It's been a theme throughout Marv's tenure, and no, it has not improved.

[Stormborn]

(07-05-2015, 06:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Am I the only one that finds it strange the you and Zerker NEVER disagree about anything and usually come to the aid of each other?

I do remember that he was among the league's best in YAC in 2013. 
http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/8328/bengals-jermaine-gresham-tyler-eifert-yards-after-catch-factoid

Matter of fact this shows that he got over half his total yards in YAC every year in stripes but one.
http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/jermaine-gresham-player-stats

He also had the 1st or 2nd best Playoff game of any TE that year and on of the few that had 2 good playoff games as a Bengal 

If you and yout alter don't consider a TE that had over 45 catches every year he was here a weapon; then we just disagree

Well of course we disagree, nothing wrong with that. People have favorites and they don't coincide with other favorites. One thing that will always resonate for me with Gresh is that he didn't live up to his draft status considering other notables were drafted after him. Products of systems? Maybe. But that doesn't mean a lot at the end of the day when two guys are considered at the top of the position group and the other is basically average.

As for the rest... I had to blow a lot of that comic stuff in klotsch out of my ass but it was needed for a good cover for my alt.

[GodFather]

(07-05-2015, 11:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Terrible QB play, a defense that plays timid and gets burned by big plays (both running and passing). No matter how many turnovers the QB has, the defense looks the same. It's been a theme throughout Marv's tenure, and no, it has not improved.

[wolfkaosaun]

(07-04-2015, 06:25 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: IMO anyone seriously thinking Andy is on par with Carson, does so out of biase. Therefore, I'll be brief. Carson didn't have a #1 ranked pass protection OL, nor a great defense. He had two good WRs.
Andy has 1st round draft talent all around him, good grief man! The players on our team make Andy better, Carson makes his teammates better.

Lol. You're funny.

Outside of Whit, who would you take now over the 05 line?

Smith over Anderson? No.
Steinbach or Bobbie Williams over Boling or Zeitler?
And I won't even give you the option on between Rich Braham over Bodine, because that's wrong.
Levi Jones was also an extraordinary player while here too.

Palmer had two All-Pro players in 05. Chad and Anderson.

Palmer had a better overall line than we do now. Palmer had better, more polisher receivers than we have now.
And 1st round talent doesn't mean anything. There are 1st round busts all the time. Draft status means nothing.

Palmer had an established run game in Rudi Johnson. Dalton had an aging Benson, BJGE, but now has a legit rushing tandem.
Palmer had a defense that got turnovers. While it wasn't a top 10 defense, they were great at getting turnovers.

Quit making excuses for Palmer. He had good weapons. A great offensive line. And a defense that would get him the ball back.

What did Dalton have that Palmer didn't in 05? A receiving tight end.

Everything Dalton has is on paper. There's been very little consistency from Dalton's weapons. Sure, some can have a good season, but there's little consistency.

But still, nothing you have said has proven that Palmer could win playoff games. He didn't win important games in 06 to get them into the playoffs. In 07 he had two receivers with 1,000+ yards and 8+ TDs, had a deep threat in Henry, and had Kenny Watson coming into his own.

Palmer couldn't win playoff games while he was here, he proved it. You can do "what if's" with 05 all you want, but he proved besides that year that he couldn't get it done here.

[fredtoast]

(07-05-2015, 11:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2. Dalton had 1 turnover against the Colts and 1 turnover in the Texans 2.0 game. The defense played the same. Same struggles against the run and pass, same lack of forced turnovers and sacks.

You are wasting your time.  He refuses to look at anything in a logical manner.  He thinks all he has to do to change his opinion into fact is use all caps.

[BengalChris]

Wow this thread has some millage.

What we need is a thread like this about an up and coming coach.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-05-2015, 11:35 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Well of course we disagree, nothing wrong with that. People have favorites and they don't coincide with other favorites. One thing that will always resonate for me with Gresh is that he didn't live up to his draft status considering other notables were drafted after him. Products of systems? Maybe. But that doesn't mean a lot at the end of the day when two guys are considered at the top of the position group and the other is basically average.

As for the rest... I had to blow a lot of that comic stuff in klotsch out of my ass but it was needed for a good cover for my alt.

I have never seen an episode of Game of Thrones. 
There. We will hate each other now and assuage his concerns. 

[Tiger Teeth]

(07-06-2015, 01:53 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Wow this thread has some millage.

What we need is a thread like this about an up and coming coach.

It would just turn into a Dalton thread.

[BengalChris]

(07-06-2015, 09:17 AM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: It would just turn into a Dalton thread.

I guess. Don't blame the coach he's got Dalton as his QB and no one could do any better or something like that.

Well, I don't blame all on Dalton, but I don't give him all that much credit either. It's hard to tell from the outside just how much help the coaches are to Dalton. You would think that they'd be working with him a lot, but if they are why the regress last year?

[*Nately120*]

(07-04-2015, 10:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Palmer never even made the playoffs with the Cards.  He did start 6-0 last year, but he only played one playoff team in that stretch.

In all fairness he did go 10-6 in 2013 (they would have missed it at 11-5, even) and Marvin has never failed to make the playoffs as long as he's managed 9 wins or more.  

[fredtoast]

(07-06-2015, 12:04 PM)BengalChris Wrote:  You would think that they'd be working with him a lot, but if they are why the regress last year?

He regressed last year because a lot of his top receivers were injured.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-05-2015, 11:35 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Well of course we disagree, nothing wrong with that. People have favorites and they don't coincide with other favorites. One thing that will always resonate for me with Gresh is that he didn't live up to his draft status considering other notables were drafted after him. Products of systems? Maybe. But that doesn't mean a lot at the end of the day when two guys are considered at the top of the position group and the other is basically average.

As for the rest... I had to blow a lot of that comic stuff in klotsch out of my ass but it was needed for a good cover for my alt.

I wouldn't call Gresham average.

When 1/3 of JG's passes start from behind the line of scrimmage, you aren't exactly going to lead the league in reception yards now are you? Gronk only had 3, and Graham only had 4 start from behind the line. So yes, I think scheme plays a very big role in Yards/Reception.

[PDub80]

I know it is long, but hear me out on this. It's sort of my Da Vinci Code!!!!!


A different way to sum up the prospect hopes AJ McCarron and Andy Dalton....

One of my best friends and I had lunch today and talked sports. He's a life long Browns fan and I am a life long Bengals fan. Neither of us are homers by any stretch. I was talking to him about this thread and some of the arguments in both sides. He summed up my thoughts incredibly and I thought I would share because it might better describe what a lot of us less-than-enthusiastic Dalton guys are thinking when it comes to McCarron.

He brought up Bill Belicheck and how he once said that he doesn't focus on a players ceiling, but instead is more interested in their floor. Meaning: What's the worst the guy is going to be any given week? Basically, the thought is that he can game plan around that is more of a certainty than hoping a guy plays like a star every game. With Tom Brady in particular, his thinking was that even in Tom's worst games he was able to bring back or keep Michigan close enough to win at the end of games - even if he had been playing poorly most of the game.

With Dalton, his floor is abysmally low and that pendulum swings wildly based on almost no real trend. He can be a star one week against a strong opponent and then drop off and just have a terrible game against a weak one. What stinks as a fan is that if his floor was just a good or even average game it would be good enough with the talent around him to win against most NFL teams most weeks - and you can ride that kind of QB into a Superbowl. With AJ McCarron, I am hoping that AJ's floor is consistently higher than Dalton's and that he plays above it with more consistency.

Some stats to back up AD's inconsistency and show his floor and how many times he reaches it....

Game by game QBR as per ESPN for 2013 & 2014

NOTE: I am putting an * if they lost

2013
1   97.2 *
2   81.7
3   105.5
4   58.2 *
5   81.1
6   105.9
7   135.9
8   125.7
9   55.4 *(OT)
10 52.3 *(OT)
11 62.7
12 83.6
13 120.5
14 86.4 *
15 136.2
16 62.2
PO 67.0 *

2014
1   98.7
2   116.6
3   68.9
4   117.4 *
5   93.5
6   55.4 *
7   89.3
8   79.1
9    2.0 *
10 143.9
11  84.6
12  60.7
13 128.8 *
14  53.6
15  93.1
16  83.7 *
PO  63.4 *

- What does this mean? Compare it to (most) other good QBs: Rivers, Wilson, Alex Smith, Big Ben, Eli Manning, Romo and a host of others and you will see an occasional dip into a low QBR, but it is rare and typically few and far between on a season by season basis.

- Guys with similar erratic play and lows: Cam Newton, Matthew Stafford, Joe Flacco (the only one who has won a Superbowl). Kaepernick gets a special mention here because he was erratic and had lows in 2014, but his QBRs in 2012 & 2013 were incredibly strong all the way through the season and the playoffs with only a dip or two.

Even more interesting is that none of the above low floor QBs made it past the 2nd round last year. The only two to make it out of the first round were Cam Newton (playing a beat up Cardinals team), and Joe Flacco (playing a familiar opponent in the Steelers).

Conclusion: For the Bengals to go far into the playoffs and be consistent the QB position doesn't have to throw 100+ ratings. Instead, it has to raise it's floor by (guessing) 15 points in QBR from the mid 50's into 70 or above territory. I don't care if that is AD, AJ MC, or some guy out on the street or whoever. If the floor of the QB position stays around the 50's the chances of winning in the playoffs drops off a cliff.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-06-2015, 10:36 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I know it is long, but hear me out on this. It's sort of my Da Vinci Code!!!!!


A different way to sum up the prospect hopes AJ McCarron and Andy Dalton....

One of my best friends and I had lunch today and talked sports. He's a life long Browns fan and I am a life long Bengals fan. Neither of us are homers by any stretch. I was talking to him about this thread and some of the arguments in both sides. He summed up my thoughts incredibly and I thought I would share because it might better describe what a lot of us less-than-enthusiastic Dalton guys are thinking when it comes to McCarron.

He brought up Bill Belicheck and how he once said that he doesn't focus on a players ceiling, but instead is more interested in their floor. Meaning: What's the worst the guy is going to be any given week? Basically, the thought is that he can game plan around that as more of a certainty than hoping a guy plays like a star every game. With Tom Brady in particular, his thinking was that even in Tom's worst games he was able to bring back or keep Michigan close enough to win at the end of games - even if he had been playing poorly most of the game.

With Dalton, his floor is abysmally low and that pendulum swings wildly based on almost no real trend. He can be a star one week against a strong opponent and then drop off and just have a terrible game against a weak one. What stinks as a fan is that if his floor was just a good or even average game it would be good enough with the talent around him to win against most NFL teams most weeks - and you can ride that kind of QB into a Superbowl. With AJ McCarron, I am hoping that AJ's floor is consistently higher than Dalton's and that he plays above it with more consistency.

Some stats to back up AD's inconsistency....

Game by game QBR as per ESPN for 2013 & 2014

NOTE: I am putting an * if they lost

2013
1   97.2 *
2   81.7
3   105.5
4   58.2 *
5   81.1
6   105.9
7   135.9
8   125.7
9   55.4 *(OT)
10 52.3 *(OT)
11 62.7
12 83.6
13 120.5
14 86.4 *
15 136.2
16 62.2
PO 67.0 *

2014
1   98.7
2   116.6
3   68.9
4   117.4 *
5   93.5
6   55.4 *
7   89.3
8   79.1
9    2.0 *
10 143.9
11  84.6
12  60.7
13 128.8 *
14  53.6
15  93.1
16  83.7 *
PO  63.4 *

- What does this mean? Compare it to (most) other good QBs: Rivers, Wilson, Alex Smith, Big Ben, Eli Manning, Romo and a host of others and you will see an occasional dip into a low QBR, but it is rare and typically few and far between on a season by season basis.

- Guys with similar erratic play and lows: Cam Newton, Matthew Stafford, Joe Flacco (the only one who has won a Superbowl). Kaepernick gets a special mention here because he was erratic and had lows in 2014, but his QBRs in 2012 & 2013 were incredibly strong all the way through the season and the playoffs with only a dip or two.

Even more interesting is that none of the above low floor QBs made it past the 2nd round last year. The only two to make it out of the first round were Cam Newton (playing a beat up Cardinals team), and Joe Flacco (playing a familiar opponent in the Steelers).

Conclusion: For the Bengals to go far into the playoffs and be consistent the QB position doesn't have to throw 100+ ratings. Instead, it has to raise it's floor by (guessing) 15 points in QBR from the mid 50's into 70 or above territory. I don't care if that is AD, AJ MC, or some guy out on the street or whoever. If the floor of the QB position stays around the 50's the chances of winning in the playoffs drops off a cliff.

Yup. And here's a comparison of the QBs over the last 2 years that have played at least 22 games and how their floor has looked. First number is how many sub70 ratings they had in '14. Second number is how many sub70 ratings they had in '13, then the total for the 2 years.

[fredtoast]

(07-07-2015, 01:07 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yup. And here's a comparison of the QBs over the last 2 years that have played at least 22 games and how their floor has looked. First number is how many sub70 ratings they had in '14. Second number is how many sub70 ratings they had in '13, then the total for the 2 years.

So according to these numbers Tannehill is twice as good as Andrew Luck.

Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Russell Wilson.

Jay Cutler and Alex Smith are better than Tom Brady.


Very interesting