Andy Dalton is for real

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-13-2016, 03:32 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: 100% agree that he is the most under rated and best value QB in the league.  There is no denying that.  

Not sure why saying the guy underthrows deep balls is immediately equated to 'hating' on the guy, but duly noted.

Cool man, cool.

[3wt]

(09-13-2016, 01:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not a safe space, just a place where if you make stuff up, you get called out for it.

Btw, I ain't your SUN. Whatever that's supposed to mean.

I think he meant Sunday.

And as awesome as Andy was Sunday  - and as nice as his passes were - I saw the same thing he did so while we may all see different things I don't think he was making it up.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-13-2016, 03:32 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: I'm not making anything up.  I see him underthrow deep balls all the time, especially to AJ.  Already explained this at length.

Saying AJ has never been overthrown on 35+ yard passes is making stuff up. Suggesting that Dalton is weak on deep throws when stats suggest otherwise is also making stuff up.

If you scrutinize any other QB with the same hyper critical eye, you'll see plenty of deep throws that ain't exactly dimes. For example, Palmer throws a pretty spiral, but his deep ball numbers aren't any better than Dalton's and if you watch him play, his accuracy isn't always perfect on the deep stuff.

The expectations (that Dalton should hit every WR perfectly in stride on 50 yard bombs) isn't realistic or fair. IMO, Rodgers is the only QB who even comes close to being that accurate all the time.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-13-2016, 05:02 PM)3wt Wrote: I think he meant Sunday.

And as awesome as Andy was Sunday  - and as nice as his passes were - I saw the same thing he did so while we may all see different things I don't think he was making it up.

See my last post. I wasn't saying he's making up that AJ had to slow down. He did. I just think it's a ridiculous thing to complain about. Dalton hits plenty of guys in stride and not every deep ball is going to be an absolute dime. Not even for the best deep ball throwers.

The result is all that matters, and the result was a 54 yard TD. Sure AJ slowed up a little but damn. It wasn't all that bad. Calling it a duck is a little over the top.

[Rhinocero23]

(09-13-2016, 03:36 AM)treee Wrote: Right, I forgot. Professional wide receivers have to slow down and turn around to catch the football. The fabled over the shoulder deep ball is just something off in fantasy land that I completely made up.

lol...you are fighting a loosing battle with BS.
In his world every pass AD makes is perfect.

You are correct Dalton could improve his long ball...no doubt about it. 

[McC]

(09-13-2016, 02:33 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Andy has been playing at a high level since last year and I'll always wonder what could've been if he hadn't got injured. We almost got a playoff win and a first round bye with our backup. To me that says a lot about the potential last year could've had. I'm glad to see that level of play continue on though.

I just hope that years from now after Dalton hopefully retires a Bengal and we move on to the next guy we all remember how this was a process and a franchise QB doesn't usually happen overnight. Also it's never a good look to boo someone at a charity soft ball game.

Yeah, that was wrong wrong.  But...it was the last push that got him over the top, the final straw.  He took that, ran with it and hasn't looked back.

[treee]

(09-13-2016, 01:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly. Either way, it's pretty bad when people have to complain about passes that were completed. If you turn the same hyper critical eye at any QB, there will be deep throws where the WR has to adjust his speed and/or turn to make the catch. Nodody throws nothing but dimes. That said, Dalton has thrown plenty of dimes, and I'd say the LaFell throw was pretty close to perfect.

Since it was me that Joelist was responding to me there I feel like I should respond to your response to him. Let me first say that I gave Andy credit for the amazing game and anyone who tries to turn innocent observations of Andy's throws into a Homer/Hater argument is doing a disservice to the type of deep discussions this message board can have. I would argue that, no, Andy's big throws down field yesterday were not close to perfect. Were they good enough? Obviously. We won the game. But for those of us who want Andy's development to continue, one area that clearly needs to be addressed is leading WRs down field. It's just not something that is not Andy's best attribute. Luckily enough for him, that works out a lot of the time because AJ Green is without a doubt the best player in the league at coming back and going up to get the ball. If you go back and look at my first comment at the end of page 4 it was just a simple observation on how Dalton could improve. Unfortunately, someone who refused to acknowledge publicly available knowledge as well as posted footage decided to argue about something that, one would think, would be a simple and obvious enough observation to build constructive conversation from. But this is Jungle noise, so I digress.

[Essex Johnson]

(09-13-2016, 12:50 AM)treee Wrote: I'd say Dalton is really really good at intermediate routes. If it is between 6 and 20 yards, you can bet he'll zip it right on target more often than not. I still wish he'd push his deep balls a little further. On both the deep ball to Lafell and Green they had to slow up a little bit. His short passes were way off early yesterday but he was running for his life. Once he settled down his short stuff was on point too.

Fred would know better but I thought i read where Dalton is one of the best deep ball passers over the last 5 years

[treee]

(09-13-2016, 09:13 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Fred would know better but I thought i read where Dalton is one of the best deep ball passers over the last 5 years

Statistically I would believe it. But really, almost any QB who has AJ Green is going to have some of the best deep ball statistics. I'm not saying Andy is bad at throwing down field at all, I'm just saying that I think he can improve specifically with leading WRs down field.

[McC]

(09-13-2016, 09:17 PM)treee Wrote: Statistically I would believe it. But really, almost any QB who has AJ Green is going to have some of the best deep ball statistics. I'm not saying Andy is bad at throwing down field at all, I'm just saying that I think he can improve specifically with leading WRs down field.

The ball he threw to LaFell was beautiful.  He was good at hitting the deep ball last year.  He has made notable improvement in this area during his career.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-13-2016, 08:51 PM)treee Wrote: 1. I would argue that, no, Andy's big throws down field yesterday were not close to perfect. Were they good enough? Obviously. We won the game. But for those of us who want Andy's development to continue, one area that clearly needs to be addressed is leading WRs down field. It's just not something that is not Andy's best attribute. 2. Luckily enough for him, that works out a lot of the time because AJ Green is without a doubt the best player in the league at coming back and going up to get the ball. If you go back and look at my first comment at the end of page 4 it was just a simple observation on how Dalton could improve. 

1. I never said ALL the throws were perfect. You're twisting my words. I said that the throw to LaFell was nearly perfect, and it was. If this were 2014, I feel this would be a more relevant discussion. Dalton made serious strides and had elite level accuracy on deep passes last year. That's why so many people were talking about his work with House, etc. He was flicking 50 yard ropes with ease. 

So with all of 2015 in mind, I'm not going to panic over 1 game and maybe 1-2 throws where Dalton didn't hit his guy perfectly in stride. Seems kinda silly ya know? Especially considering how the guy was looking through his ear hole half the time. If we get 5 games in and Dalton is still throwing a little short, maybe then we can discuss whether or not he's regressed in that department.

You and I also seem to differ on how bad Dalton's deep ball was (at one point). Like I've said multiple times now, if you watch other QBs - even the ones who are considered strong armed - they miss more deep throws than they hit. Just going off of numbers I've seen in past debates of this nature, I'd say the league average completion % for deep balls is around 35-40%. 

That's why I say if you get the ball where your guy can catch it (and the DB(s) can't, it's a good throw regardless of whether or not the WR had to slow down a tiny bit. I'd like to see Dalton hit guys in stride with regularity like he did last season, but I feel that's picking nits and people overestimate not only how important that is, but also how often it happens.

2. Having AJ Green does not automatically = deep ball success. Just look at Mike Wallace for example. Great deep ball WR with speed and is great at tracking the ball. Yet he was useless for Tannehill (a poor deep ball thrower). Now he's with Flacco and his deep ball prowess has magically returned. There are so many examples like that. It takes 2, no matter how great Green is.

[The Real Deal]

Looks good to me

[Brownshoe]

(09-14-2016, 12:28 AM)The Real Deal Wrote:

Looks good to me

Hell of a pass for a 2nd year QB.

[Rhinocero23]

(09-14-2016, 12:28 AM)The Real Deal Wrote:

Looks good to me

Correct...that is s great throw. If it does not look like that it is less than great. 

[GreenCornBengal]

On the 54 yard TD, AJ didn't catch the ball at the high point. What a loser   Waited for it to come to him like a scrub. Any good CB would have knocked it down.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-14-2016, 07:34 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Correct...that is s great throw. If it does not look like that it is less than great. 

That was also to the sideline, and not a post.  The angle allows for an easier lead than straight up the middle.....geometry and stuff.

[Luvnit2]

Wow, we sure have some fans that can take a big win and spin it negatively. Who ever said AD was perfect Sunday? In reality, he was not good in the 1st quarter throwing things high. Later, he threw one low to CJ, but it was catchable especially by a pro TE. Our QB is always under the microscope by our own fans, but it is like those same fans never watch other NFL games and see Rodgers, Ben and others not make perfect throws all the time.

The law of averages on throws normally decreases the further the ball is thrown. The averages are far less for throws over 50 yards than 20 yards for a reason. The AJ throw to Green over Revis was in the air for 60 yards. To nitpick a 60 yard completed TD to me is a bit much. He did not over throw it which many do. He put the ball in a place where it is caught or incomplete removing any shot at an interception.

AD is far from perfect, but so were other greats like Favre, Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman and many other in the HOF.

One last point for those who want to nitpick. Do you also nitpick every tackler that does not square up and stop the ball carrier in their tracks not allowing them to fall forward. The reality these guys are all pros and AD and AJ beat the crap out of a HOF CB named Revis Sunday. We should all be celebrating it versus nitpicking 3 or 4 throws of 30 throws from our QB.

[grampahol]

(09-11-2016, 06:13 PM)Beaker Wrote: Those "Let's get rid of Andy" or "Let's start AJ McCarron" threads seem rather silly now, don't they?

There were a few of them in the game day thread..so I responded with he hasn't thrown 9 TDs all game (1st quarter) BENCH HIM!

The truth is every player has crappy games. Andy is having fewer and fewer every game..

[Tiger Teeth]

(09-14-2016, 12:02 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Wow, we sure have some fans that can take a big win and spin it negatively. Who ever said AD was perfect Sunday? In reality, he was not good in the 1st quarter throwing things high. Later, he threw one low to CJ, but it was catchable especially by a pro TE. Our QB is always under the microscope by our own fans, but it is like those same fans never watch other NFL games and see Rodgers, Ben and others not make perfect throws all the time.

The law of averages on throws normally decreases the further the ball is thrown. The averages are far less for throws over 50 yards than 20 yards for a reason. The AJ throw to Green over Revis was in the air for 60 yards. To nitpick a 60 yard completed TD to me is a bit much. He did not over throw it which many do. He put the ball in a place where it is caught or incomplete removing any shot at an interception.

AD is far from perfect, but so were other greats like Favre, Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman and many other in the HOF.

One last point for those who want to nitpick. Do you also nitpick every tackler that does not square up and stop the ball carrier in their tracks not allowing them to fall forward. The reality these guys are all pros and AD and AJ beat the crap out of a HOF CB named Revis Sunday. We should all be celebrating it versus nitpicking 3 or 4 throws of 30 throws from our QB.

I believe some rep is warranted here.  

[Vas Deferens]

(09-14-2016, 12:02 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Wow, we sure have some fans that can take a big win and spin it negatively. Who ever said AD was perfect Sunday? In reality, he was not good in the 1st quarter throwing things high. Later, he threw one low to CJ, but it was catchable especially by a pro TE. Our QB is always under the microscope by our own fans, but it is like those same fans never watch other NFL games and see Rodgers, Ben and others not make perfect throws all the time.

I see that shit all the time, distinction is, I don't regularly post on GB, PITT or other teams msg boards.  I post here.

Quote:The law of averages on throws normally decreases the further the ball is thrown. The averages are far less for throws over 50 yards than 20 yards for a reason. The AJ throw to Green over Revis was in the air for 60 yards. To nitpick a 60 yard completed TD to me is a bit much. He did not over throw it which many do. He put the ball in a place where it is caught or incomplete removing any shot at an interception.

Please lay out your rules as to what we may and may not discuss.  I'll flag anything that may contain content outside of your class of protected speech so as to not deflower your delicate sensibilities.  

Quote:AD is far from perfect, but so were other greats like Favre, Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman and many other in the HOF.


One last point for those who want to nitpick. Do you also nitpick every tackler that does not square up and stop the ball carrier in their tracks not allowing them to fall forward. The reality these guys are all pros and AD and AJ beat the crap out of a HOF CB named Revis Sunday.

Have you seen the russel bodine thread?  Go over there and save the poor man before his mom reads that post.  

Quote:We should all be celebrating it versus nitpicking 3 or 4 throws of 30 throws from our QB.

Well Kum-ba-*******-ya, lets all hold hands.  Listen, I get it.  You want to step in and stick up for your QB who had a really good game.  But saying the guy underthrows deep passes at times is somehow antithetical to being a fan of the guy or the team?  Come on.

'NITPICK'...  You gotta get a hall pass to take a tinkle around here these days.