Are we SURE that Antonio Brown is better than AJ Green?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-13-2016, 11:35 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Magnitude?  I think that is taking it a bit far.

Many times, on the big plays, AB is the beneficiary of Ben being able to extend plays an extra second or two.  This makes AB much more likely to get open.

I think AB is great, and I will never deny that.  But at the same time can I say... Overrated? if I am a GM and I get to pick a WR to build my team around its not him.  Again he is a great player in a even better system.  But I'll take the 6'3 physical specimen that can do everything he can but also is bigger and stronger.

You gotta remember, when the conversation was about how bad Andy sucked, AJ was the best in the league, and the only reason he ever did anything.

That said, AJ is NO DOUBT, top 3, and every year, he improves on the physical side of his game.....at the end of this year, he may be at the top of the heap.

[*Go Cards*]

(09-13-2016, 10:16 PM)IMightBeRight Wrote: Green is the color of money, Brown is the color of shit, enough said.

If it is Brown flush it down. 

[Rhinocero23]

(09-14-2016, 11:13 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Dalton does have a good NFL arm. It's not average. He has some of the best stats in the league when it comes to 20+ and 40+ yard completions. Pretty much all passes that are 75-80 yards through the air are hail marys. The hail mary Aaron Rodgers had against the Cardinals was only ~60 yards through the air. To say 75-80 through the air on anything other than a hail mary is just fooling yourself.

Let me help you understand the dimensions of the field
The width is 53.3yards the length is 120 yards
The numbers are 12 yards in from the sideline and 2 yards deep
The hash marks are 23.6 yards from the sideline and 6.2 yards apart. 

Now that we have that established we can determine the distance the ball travels in Reality prior to completion.

Using the game you mentioned let's look at a couple plays

Rogers Hail Mary - from the  GB 45 to -5 yards deep in the Arz end zone. That alone is 60 yards now he was roughly 2 yards from the top of the numbers and the pass was completed 3 yards inside the hash marks. That is about another 8-10 yards off his back foot falling away...68-70 yards in the air. A very strong arm.

Palmer completed a 15 yard pass to LF on the next series.  The ball traveled 45 yards to get to LF. This just to show how many yards a short completion might travel.

Rogers to Cobb 77 yards in the air 

In the playoff game between the Seahawks and panthers Wilson throws from 2 yard in side the hash to the sideline 8 yards deep in the end zone = 73 yards

Plamer to Nelson vs us last year. From the Arz 29 to the Cin 18 from the right hash to 4 yards from the right sideline = 75 yards

Can do this all day. Can't find any like that for Dalton. It's a skill set he does not possess. It does not make him a bad QB...why do you insist he has this skill or that others don't?

[Jpoore]

He is still on track to have more passing yards than most in the top 5 all time qbs so it dosent matter if he can throw a 70 yard bomb or not he has a great completion percentage

[Brownshoe]

(09-14-2016, 01:19 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Let me help you understand the dimensions of the field
The width is 53.3yards the length is 120 yards
The numbers are 12 yards in from the sideline and 2 yards deep
The hash marks are 23.6 yards from the sideline and 6.2 yards apart. 

Now that we have that established we can determine the distance the ball travels in Reality prior to completion.

Using the game you mentioned let's look at a couple plays

Rogers Hail Mary - from the  GB 45 to -5 yards deep in the Arz end zone. That alone is 60 yards now he was roughly 2 yards from the top of the numbers and the pass was completed 3 yards inside the hash marks. That is about another 8-10 yards off his back foot falling away...68-70 yards in the air. A very strong arm.

Palmer completed a 15 yard pass to LF on the next series.  The ball traveled 45 yards to get to LF. This just to show how many yards a short completion might travel.

Rogers to Cobb 77 yards in the air 

In the playoff game between the Seahawks and panthers Wilson throws from 2 yard in side the hash to the sideline 8 yards deep in the end zone = 73 yards

Plamer to Nelson vs us last year. From the Arz 29 to the Cin 18 from the right hash to 4 yards from the right sideline = 75 yards

Can do this all day. Can't find any like that for Dalton. It's a skill set he does not possess. It does not make him a bad QB...why do you insist he has this skill or that others don't?

Did you really just name all hail marys and a INT from Palmer? The only non hail Mary I see is the 45 yard pass to Fitzgerald. Which isn't 75-80 yards. You're looking foolish right now.

[Rhinocero23]

(09-15-2016, 12:04 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Did you really just name all hail marys and a INT from Palmer? The only non hail Mary I see is the 45 yard pass to Fitzgerald. Which isn't 75-80 yards. You're looking foolish right now.

Lol...no int's and only Hail Mary is the one you mentioned. Foolish is on you blind friend.

[Brownshoe]

(09-15-2016, 06:40 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Lol...no int's and only Hail Mary is the one you mentioned. Foolish is on you blind friend.

Palmer to Reggie Nelson isn't a INT? How is all the other ones not hail marys? 

[grampahol]

AJ Green over Brown all day every day and to top it off I'm going full tilt Homer for AJ ..The Jets game is the prime reason..You just don't find players like AJ every day not to mention AJ can juggle.. Anyone who is a successful juggler has to win the argument.

[Rhinocero23]

(09-15-2016, 06:58 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Palmer to Reggie Nelson isn't a INT? How is all the other ones not hail marys? 

I can see the confusion on the name Nelson. I believe the Cardinals have a receiver named JJ Nelson. if I am mistaken whoever it was was wearing a red jersey and it was a touchdown pass from Palmer to the receiver the traveled 75 yards in the air.

The next point is something I would think you would know. Not all "bombs" are "Hail Mary's". A Hail Mary pass can be made at any distance in the event it probably last play for the offense in the game and the result is a touchdown to win or extend the game.

it seems as if you want the definition to be any pass that goes further than what Andy can throw which is about 55 yards. At least you're consistent your narrative is always on a single track.

The op was a question on Brown vs Green. I made the point that Brown has an advantage of a better quarterback specifically in terms of arm strength and using the entire field. Both Brown or Green would benefit from having the Steelers quarterback due to their speed. That is not to say that Dalton is not a good quarterback he is just not in Ben's elite level.
All things equal ( meaning the same quarterback) I would take the fast athletic big bodied AJ Green over the smaller possibly quicker Brown.

get it?

[Brownshoe]

(09-15-2016, 11:33 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: I can see the confusion on the name Nelson. I believe the Cardinals have a receiver named JJ Nelson. if I am mistaken whoever it was was wearing a red jersey and it was a touchdown pass from Palmer to the receiver the traveled 75 yards in the air.

The next point  is something I would think you would know. Not all "bombs" are "Hail Mary's". A Hail Mary pass can be made at any distance in the event it probably last play for the offense in the game and the result is a touchdown to win or extend the game.

it seems as if you want the definition to be any pass that goes further than what Andy can throw which is about 55 yards. At least you're consistent your narrative is always on a single track.

The op was a question on Brown vs Green. I made the point that Brown has an advantage of a better quarterback  specifically in terms of arm strength and using the entire field. Both Brown or Green would benefit from having the Steelers quarterback due to their speed.  That is not to say that Dalton is not a good quarterback he is just not in Ben's elite level.
All things equal ( meaning the same quarterback) I would take the fast athletic big bodied AJ Green over the smaller possibly quicker Brown.

get it?

You do realize that Dalton has one of the best deep ball stats in the league right? He had a ~60 yards through through the air with 3 different receivers just against the Jets (Uzomah/LaFell/Green). He had almost a ~80 yard pass through the air against Pittsburgh in 2014. Against the Falcons in 2012 he had ~70 yard pass through the air. I'm sure I can find a lot more deep balls from Dalton, but these were just off the top of my head.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Love me some AJ, but lets be real, folks... comparing rookie seasons between a 4th overall pick and a 195th overall pick in order to avoid recent history is pretty weak.

Antonio Brown 2016-2014: 273 catches/3,658 yards/25 TD
AJ Green 2016-2014: 170 catches/2,518 yards/17 TD

Antonio Brown (despite being a Steeler turd) is currently the best WR in the game. In a two year span, he basically is ahead of AJ statistically by a whole third season.

[BernLock]

(09-15-2016, 12:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Love me some AJ, but lets be real, folks... comparing rookie seasons between a 4th overall pick and a 195th overall pick in order to avoid recent history is pretty weak.

Antonio Brown 2016-2014: 273 catches/3,658 yards/25 TD
AJ Green 2016-2014: 170 catches/2,518 yards/17 TD

Antonio Brown (despite being a Steeler turd) is currently the best WR in the game. In a two year span, he basically is ahead of AJ statistically by a whole third season.

but brown also has 103 catches more than AJ. Thats a huge difference and should be taken into account. especially since green only has 170 in ur oddly specific time period

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-15-2016, 11:33 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: I can see the confusion on the name Nelson. I believe the Cardinals have a receiver named JJ Nelson. if I am mistaken whoever it was was wearing a red jersey and it was a touchdown pass from Palmer to the receiver the traveled 75 yards in the air.

The next point  is something I would think you would know. Not all "bombs" are "Hail Mary's". A Hail Mary pass can be made at any distance in the event it probably last play for the offense in the game and the result is a touchdown to win or extend the game.

it seems as if you want the definition to be any pass that goes further than what Andy can throw which is about 55 yards. At least you're consistent your narrative is always on a single track.

The op was a question on Brown vs Green. I made the point that Brown has an advantage of a better quarterback  specifically in terms of arm strength and using the entire field. Both Brown or Green would benefit from having the Steelers quarterback due to their speed.  That is not to say that Dalton is not a good quarterback he is just not in Ben's elite level.
All things equal ( meaning the same quarterback) I would take the fast athletic big bodied AJ Green over the smaller possibly quicker Brown.

get it?

I agree with a lot of this post. The only thing i'm gong to dispute is your math. These balls aren't traveling 75 yards in the air. 

Aaron Rodgers is one of the strongest armed QBs in the league and on a good day, he can heave the ball between 70-75 yards when he gets a decent head start.

Rodgers and Palmer were each on one of those QB competition thingys early in their careers. Both of their longest throws were between 70-75 yards. 

[Rhinocero23]

(09-15-2016, 11:57 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You do realize that Dalton has one of the best deep ball stats in the league right? He had a ~60 yards through through the air with 3 different receivers just against the Jets (Uzomah/LaFell/Green). He had almost a ~80 yard pass through the air against Pittsburgh in 2014. Against the Falcons in 2012 he had ~70 yard pass through the air. I'm sure I can find a lot more deep balls from Dalton, but these were just off the top of my head.

None of those are even close to the "Air" traveled. I challenge you to prove otherwise if you can't then admit You are incorrect.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2016, 02:23 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I agree with a lot of this post. The only thing i'm gong to dispute is your math. These balls aren't traveling 75 yards in the air. 

Aaron Rodgers is one of the strongest armed QBs in the league and on a good day, he can heave the ball between 70-75 yards when he gets a decent head start.

Rodgers and Palmer were each on one of those QB competition thingys early in their careers. Both of their longest throws were between 70-75 yards. 

This. Agree with much of what he's saying, but he's definitely overestimating how far those guys can throw it. 80 yards through the air is pretty much unheard of. Maybe 70-75 yards if an elite-armed QB gets a running start. I'd say Dalton's arm is above average but not elite. Ben's is a little better IMO, but not to the point where AB is greatly benefitted by having him over a guy like Dalton.

I'd say AB's numbers are more benefitted by that offensive system and how much they throw the ball, than he is by having a QB that can "supposedly" chuck it 90 yards left handed while blindfolded on his knees. I tell you one thing though, I've never seen Ben flick a 55 yard rope while running for his life like Dalton did against KC last year. Not saying Ben doesn't have the better arm, but some just seem to have selective memory when it comes to Dalton and his arm.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-15-2016, 12:30 PM)BernLock Wrote: but brown also has 103 catches more than AJ. Thats a huge difference and should be taken into account. especially since green only has 170 in ur oddly specific time period

Yes, and AJ has 76 more catches than Mohamed Sanu in that period, and Mohamed Sanu has 88 more catches than James Wright in that period. I don't see what point you are trying to make there... better WRs get open more. Open WRs generally catch more passes. You want to penalize Antonio Brown because he caught 136 passes last year? Because that's the only thing I can imagine you're trying to say.

It's not oddly specific. It's recent history. You want to talk about 2015 to present? Could even go back to 2013 to present. Cool, AJ was better than Brown in 2012, but the thread isn't "Are we SURE that Antonio Brown is better than AJ Green in 2012", it's just is he better? As in presently. Anything further than a year or two isn't really relevant in the conversation.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-15-2016, 02:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This. Agree with much of what he's saying, but he's definitely overestimating how far those guys can throw it. 80 yards through the air is pretty much unheard of. Maybe 70-75 yards if an elite-armed QB gets a running start. I'd say Dalton's arm is above average but not elite. Ben's is a little better IMO, but not to the point where AB is greatly benefitted by having him over a guy like Dalton.

I'd say AB's numbers are more benefitted by that offensive system and how much they throw the ball, than he is by having a QB that can "supposedly" chuck it 90 yards left handed while blindfolded on his knees. I tell you one thing though, I've never seen Ben flick a 55 yard rope while running for his life like Dalton did against KC last year. Not saying Ben doesn't have the better arm, but some just seem to have selective memory when it comes to Dalton and his arm.

Yessir. 

Jamarcus Russell's longest throw on record was 82 yds in the air. He has/had one of the strongest arms ever.

EDIT: My mistake. After some more thought, it was Byron Leftwich that i remember seeing in one of those QB throwing competitions. So it was probably more like 72 yds.

I've seen a video of Russell, in high school, and it appears he throws the ball about 78 yards in the air.

Flacco and Cardale Jones both on video throwing it 74 yards.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2016, 08:14 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yessir. 

Jamarcus Russell's longest throw on record was 82 yds in the air. He has/had one of the strongest arms ever.

EDIT: My mistake. After some more thought, it was Byron Leftwich that i remember seeing in one of those QB throwing competitions. So it was probably more like 72 yds.

I've seen a video of Russell, in high school, and it appears he throws the ball about 78 yards in the air.

Flacco and Cardale Jones both on video throwing it 74 yards.

When I googled "longest NFL throw ever" I saw a link to a deadspin podcast on the subject. Didn't listen to the podcast, so I'm not sure what the distance was, but apparently Vinny Testaverde threw it the longest. Apparently the podcast mentioned that somewhere around 80% of QBs can throw it 60-70 yards.

Couldn't find much else on the subject. Probably because very rarely is a QB going to need to air it out that far.

[OrlandoBengal]

(09-15-2016, 09:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: When I googled "longest NFL throw ever" I saw a link to a deadspin podcast on the subject. Didn't listen to the podcast, so I'm not sure what the distance was, but apparently Vinny Testaverde threw it the longest. Apparently the podcast mentioned that somewhere around 80% of QBs can throw it 60-70 yards.

Couldn't find much else on the subject. Probably because very rarely is a QB going to need to air it out that far.

I have no idea what the longest pass is, but get what Rhinocero is saying.  If you throw the ball from the left hash mark to the right sideline, it is traveling much further than if you throw it to the left sideline.

Andy has great anticipation, is accurate, and has a very strong football mind.  Except on this board, I have never heard anyone claim he has a strong arm by NFL standards.  I would say it is average.  It is not an insult though because he is much "stronger" that most in the other areas. Look at a Drew Brees.  If you're smart and have good anticipation, you can be very successful with an average arm.

[OrlandoBengal]

(09-15-2016, 08:14 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yessir. 

Jamarcus Russell's longest throw on record was 82 yds in the air. He has/had one of the strongest arms ever.

EDIT: My mistake. After some more thought, it was Byron Leftwich that i remember seeing in one of those QB throwing competitions. So it was probably more like 72 yds.

I've seen a video of Russell, in high school, and it appears he throws the ball about 78 yards in the air.

Flacco and Cardale Jones both on video throwing it 74 yards.

There was some video I remember seeing of Russell throwing it like 65 yards from his knees.  It was impressive.