OFF SEASON MOVES ????

[kevin]

Reds are a team in dire need of moves....Cubs, Cardinals and Pirates far above Reds and Brewers may soon be also. ...The Reds one of the worst teams in baseball....The new GM is very much in question......The manager Price is just awful.....Look at the difference manager Madden made in Tampa and Chicago or the difference manager Sparky or Lou made in Cincy .....Never tell me the manager doesn't matter. The choice of manager is huge and dictates which direction your team is going....Price is way past his time to be FIRED. ......We need a new GM and a new manager because this team has no direction up. The team is awful and no future to look forward to. At this pace Reds could be in last place the next 20 years. .....This team put everything it had into keeping Votto and that is all they have, which isn't much.....The Cubs were the worst team in baseball just a couple years ago, so it shows it can be done.....A new manager and the pitching is awful. We need a manager and we need pitching. We need starters and bullpen. Our pitching sucks and Reds over rate their minor leagues. All teams have minor leagues. Nothing special about Reds minor leagues. Reds will need some veterans brought in, a mix of veterans and youth. ...The Reds will need defense and clutch hitting. The Reds are probably weak in defense and hitting also.

Reds look cemented in last place for years to come. Major off season moves need made. The Pete Rose statue and other tributes to decades gone by aren't cutting it....and don't get all excited about the 2017 draft in middle of summer, this ain't football. ....Reds need to make major moves NOW or they won't be worth watching one single game in 2017. ....So sad to see Dave Ross paid all this tribute in a Cubs uniform while Chapman is the star closer in a Cubs uniform. All we have are these tribute celebrations to decades gone by, such as the Pete erection that will be unveiled.......Lou helped with the team a little in 2016. I would pay and increase his input. I might consider Eric Davis or Barry Larkin in a GM or management job. If the Reds keep Price and their GM and stay the course, the course is last place. Since Lou wants to be a part of Reds, use him because he knows how to win.

I will watch every Bengals game even if they are going to finish next to last. Baseball is a more boring game, especially if your team sucks wire to wire in last place. I see the Reds clinching last early if no major off season moves.

The only trade rumor on Reds.com is Reds considering trading good young Billy Hamilton to Texas for some drugged out, doped up, no name relief pitcher. Sounds like a stupid trade Reds would make.

[grampahol]

Kevin, you've watched baseball enough over the years to know that sometimes, even more than sometimes a player can get drafted really low like in the 43rd round and nobody even knows their name or anything else about them and suddenly that same player is in the running for league mvp at 34 years old. The window for success in baseball seems to stay open far longer in baseball than in football. 

Now I have little to no confidence in Price, but strange things happen in baseball that just don't typically happen in football. The easiest thing in the world to do is to place all the blame for the teams woes on the manager, but if nobody on the team can hit over 270 consistently and none of the pitchers can have an era under 3.xx consistently no manager is going to turn them into contenders.
We know that Jokety screwed the pooch a few years back with the huge contracts for Votto, Baily and Bruce, BP and others only to be forced to trade away the core in order to just make payroll. 
Anyway, I'm confident that this team will likely remain at the bottom part of the standings for the foreseeable future, but the minor leagues will produce enough quality players to put us back in contention in my lifetime. Price won't, like Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis live forever, but he did come along as manager right as Jokety's plan unraveled which really left him with very very little to work with. I seriously doubt that any manager, dead alive or anything in between could have had the 2016 team in contention for anything other than getting high draft picks in 2017.  

[kevin]

....but Price has sucked since he replaced Dusty and he started with a decent team and still sucked.....AGAIN....This crap that managers don't hit and managers don't pitch......That went out the window for me when Jack McKeon took over the last place Marlins early in the year and in same season won World Series with same players. ....I don't ever want anybody to tell me managers don't make a difference.....My best years playing baseball as a kid were under good managers and my worst were under dip sticks that didn't know what the heck they were doing so they couldn't coach me up.....Madden turned last place Rays and Cubs into winners.....Sparky turned lousy Reds into winners and then Tigers....Price is a lousy manager. A good manager is needed to develop the young Billy Hamilton and young players and young pitchers....Price is NOT the person to develop this young talent....If the Reds make no off season moves, not only will they remain in last, but these lousy coaches will not develop the young players and will ruin any future this franchise may be hoping for.....Lou did some part time work with Reds in 2016. If they can get Lou to do more, they are crazy not to. ...Barry Larkin and Eric Davis are possible in house names....David Ross could have a future in coaching since catchers make very good coaches....The Reds are just awful from top to bottom and need major changes. ....I would keep Billy Hamilton and with the right coaching he could develop even more. They could use good coaches across the board. It BEGINS there.

Hitting coaches. Ted Williams helped Yaz and the Red Sox greatly and Joe Dimaggio as hitting coach did not hurt the Athletics who went on to win three straight World Series. All Reds said Ted Kluzewski was great....Ken Griffey Jr, Barry Larking, Sean Casey, Paul O'Neill, Rolan, are some names of possible guys that know hitting. ....Pitching..Soto seems to help these guys a lot and I would think Arroyo someday might. ....Defense, Ryan Freel could field every position....I'm not saying these people, but the team needs a new manager and a new coaching staff. I am seeing no improvement under Price, in fact the young players seem to be getting worse.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2016, 12:06 PM)kevin Wrote: This crap that managers don't hit and managers don't pitch......That went out the window for me when Jack McKeon took over the last place Marlins early in the year and in same season won World Series with same players.

McKeon took over a bteam that had a lot of great players who hit and pitched well before he ever arrived.

I agree that good managers can get good resuklts from good players.  But no manager can magically turn a scrub into a star.

The Reds roster is not loaded with good players who are underachieving.  The Reds roster has a lot of players that just are not that good.

[WildCat]

(11-26-2016, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: McKeon took over a bteam that had a lot of great players who hit and pitched well before he ever arrived.

I agree that good managers can get good resuklts from good players.  But no manager can magically turn a scrub into a star.

The Reds roster is not loaded with good players who are underachieving.  The Reds roster has a lot of players that just are not that good.

welcome to reality fred. good to have you sir.

[Yojimbo]

Apparently Billy Hamilton is on the trade block. Huge mistake to trade a guy that we've gone through all the growing pains with and was finally showing signs late last season of being an all-star center fielder and lead off man.

[kevin]

This should be the players up for trade provided a team is willing to pay all their salary and Reds get out from under.....and this list will make you all mad.....Votto at 22 mil a year and 33 signed until he is 40.....Homer signed at 17 mil a year and 30 and signed until he is 35......Phillips at 12 mil a year and 35 and signed to age 37.....Mesoraco at 7 mil....Cozart around 3 mil....Alfredo Simon at 2 mil.....that is 63 mil right there for a small market franchise team. ....Now we can probably forget any trades for much injured Homer and Mesoraco. ....Reds could still dump 39 mil and go for youth. ....and IF Mesoraco comes back, he may only be able to play first base. Doctors said not to count on him catching again. ....These are the Reds last place million dollar players, and if we can finish last with them, we can finish last or better without them.....So, assuming nobody wants Homer or Mesoraco....Trade Votto, Phillips, Cozart and just do not resign Simon as a free agent.....Reds already in this youth movement from other trades anyway.

[magikod]

(11-29-2016, 03:42 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Apparently Billy Hamilton is in the trade block. Huge mistake to trade a guy that we've gone through all the growing pains with and was finally showing signs late last season of being an all-star center fielder and lead off man.

Why the heck would they trade him? He was one of our few bright spots last season.

[grampahol]

Well, you know..We have the team that we have, not the team we wish we had. If we could all just wish for a great team we'd be set forever and ever.
I'm ok with votto..not so much for the long term ,but he's our 1st baseman. I'm ok with BP. Homer was a dud deal . Everyone seems to think that everyone else is just willing to trade away all their big stars for our big salaries.. The other teams have to be willing to trade as well . You don't get great trades just by edict or fan proclamation . 

[McC]

Pardon me, but this thread is just plain wrong. No way will the Reds be a last place team next year or anywhere near the worst team in baseball. There are quite a few good young players on the roster who will come into their own this year. Oh ye of little faith.

Oh and, I could've managed the Cubs to the title. Joe Madden did nothing a dozen other managers couldn't have done with that roster. It is always all about the players. The best thing a manager can do is stay out of their way and maybe a little bit of cheer leading.

[PikesPeakUC]

(12-11-2016, 01:51 PM)McC Wrote: Pardon me, but this thread is just plain wrong.  No way will the Reds be a last place team next year or anywhere near the worst team in baseball.  There are quite a few good young players on the roster who will come into their own this year.  Oh ye of little faith.

Oh and, I could've managed the Cubs to the title.  Joe Madden did nothing a dozen other managers couldn't have done with that roster.  It is always all about the players.  The best thing a manager can do is stay out of their way and maybe a little bit of cheer leading.

It seems like it's always the managers fault when teams underperform and never their fault when teams win. 

I'm sorry, but all of these assumptions are that players will get better because they're getting more playing time, but that can work the other way as well. I would love to believe that the Reds will be better, but you can make the argument that there are a lot of other teams who will improve as well. 

The fact is that the Reds are not and will not be a competitive team for a few years. The contracts they have handed out are killing them and the fielders, aside from Votto, all have a big flaw in their game. I want the Reds to be good, but I won't sit here and tell you that there's some magic potion and that things will get better while they try and climb over the Cubs, Cardinals, and Pirates in the upcoming years. 

I will always be a Reds fan, but they are a long way from being competitive. I remember a lot of people talking themselves into this last year as well. They're still a ways away. 

[kevin]

(11-26-2016, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: McKeon took over a bteam that had a lot of great players who hit and pitched well before he ever arrived.

I agree that good managers can get good resuklts from good players.  But no manager can magically turn a scrub into a star.

The Reds roster is not loaded with good players who are underachieving.  The Reds roster has a lot of players that just are not that good.

He took over a Florida Marlins team that was in last place, fired their manager, hired him and in same season he turned around the last place team and won World Series with pretty much the same players who were in last place the first few months.  I don't know where you get that they were great in last place and manager just fired.

Now I agree the Reds roster has players that are just not that good.  The Reds are making no off season moves. This means the highlight of the year will be the Pete Rose Statue Ceremony and more talk about the 1970's, while the Reds clinch last place early again this year.  For people that want Coach Lewis fired so much who has had 5 straight play-off seasons going into this year, I'm amazed at this man love people have for Price who is in last place every year. I'm tempted to throw the race card and maybe it is in the deck. I'll keep it in the deck and just say Price really has stunk up the place and 2017 looks like more of the same. People forget Reds were a play-off type team when Price took over. He couldn't win with those players and he sure won't win with sad sacks he has on the field now. No pitching and darn little hitting and a lousy manager add up to last place again.

Reds ownership is going to try to get by on that Pete Rose Statue and talking about how great the team was over 40 years ago. If that sells tickets. more power to them. I wouldn't even pay to have Fox Ohio to watch this team. You actually have to pay extra cable money to watch this team flounder in last place, and even then they play so bad they are hard to watch.

Reds.com says they are considering trading young Billy Hamilton for some burned out dope head relief pitcher. That sounds like a classic Reds move. Trade one of their best young players for crack pipe Jones.

[fredtoast]

(12-14-2016, 11:57 AM)kevin Wrote: He took over a Florida Marlins team that was in last place, fired their manager, hired him and in same season he turned around the last place team and won World Series with pretty much the same players who were in last place the first few months.  I don't know where you get that they were great in last place and manager just fired.

McKeon inherited a team with

Catcher Ivan Rodriguez...10 time All Star who would go on to be selected four 4 more All Star games.

1B Derrick Lee....coming off a season where he hit .270 with 27 HR and 98 RBI,

2B Luis Castrillo....coming off an All Star season where he hit .305 with 48 SB, 

3B Mike Lowell....coming off an All Star season where he hit .276 with 24 HR and 92 RBI

SS Alex Gonzalez....Former All Star ('99) who was still just 26 years old.

OF Todd Hollandsworth...coming off a season where he hit .284 with 16 HR and 67 RBI in just 430 AB.  

OF Juan Pierre....The previous 2 seasons he hit a combined .308 with 93 SB and 198 runs scored

OF Juan Encarnacion.....coming off a season where he hit .271 with 24 HR and 85 RBI

And his number one utility man off the bench was rookie Miguel Cabrera who would go on to become one of the greatest hitters of his era.  He drove in 62 runs in just 314 ABs.


McKeon was handed a loaded lineup full of All Star quality players.  They were that good before he arrived.

[samhain]

(12-11-2016, 06:28 PM)PikesPeakUC Wrote: It seems like it's always the managers fault when teams underperform and never their fault when teams win. 

I'm sorry, but all of these assumptions are that players will get better because they're getting more playing time, but that can work the other way as well. I would love to believe that the Reds will be better, but you can make the argument that there are a lot of other teams who will improve as well. 

The fact is that the Reds are not and will not be a competitive team for a few years. The contracts they have handed out are killing them and the fielders, aside from Votto, all have a big flaw in their game. I want the Reds to be good, but I won't sit here and tell you that there's some magic potion and that things will get better while they try and climb over the Cubs, Cardinals, and Pirates in the upcoming years. 

I will always be a Reds fan, but they are a long way from being competitive. I remember a lot of people talking themselves into this last year as well. They're still a ways away. 

I think they have the framework of what could be a decent everyday 8 in place.  Things go wrong, but the answers to a lot of questions from last year are now here.  Unfortunately, the starting rotation is another story.  Their best pitcher is Disco, who's probably a low-end number 2.  There's absolutely no pitcher in their system that looks like a TOR hammer at the moment.  Bailey may have had the potential at some point, but injury has tempered expectations with him.  He looked flat out awful last year.  

[PikesPeakUC]

(12-16-2016, 11:21 AM)samhain Wrote: I think they have the framework of what could be a decent everyday 8 in place.  Things go wrong, but the answers to a lot of questions from last year are now here.  Unfortunately, the starting rotation is another story.  Their best pitcher is Disco, who's probably a low-end number 2.  There's absolutely no pitcher in their system that looks like a TOR hammer at the moment.  Bailey may have had the potential at some point, but injury has tempered expectations with him.  He looked flat out awful last year.  

Totally agree. I have no qualms about the bullpen strength and the offensive potential, but the starting pitching is a huge question mark. Straily is a sell-high candidate, but he's also a cheap arm so the Reds are stuck in between a rock and a hard place. I also think they're kind of held hostage by the fact that Cozart and Phillips are still around. They've got to get the ball rolling on the Perazas and Herreras of the world eventually. Triple A at bats can only help so much. 

As much as I hate to say it, I think Duvall is a sell high candidate as well. Yeah, he produced last year, but he's higher in age and I don't know how much of his production can maintain at that level. 

I'm excited for Senzel and others in the system, but pitching is going to be the biggest issue for the Reds between competing and another rebuilding year. 

[McC]

The Reds won't be competing for the playoffs but they will be a five hundred team with the needle pointed up.

[grampahol]

Some depends on just plain s#*t luck too.. It's not unheard of to have a few career 220 hitters have a few career years or for a few so-so pitchers to have a great season. It does happen. Of course it's not the kind of thing most fans bank on, but it would be sweet if it did.

[kevin]

(12-15-2016, 12:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: McKeon inherited a team with

Catcher Ivan Rodriguez...10 time All Star who would go on to be selected four 4 more All Star games.

1B Derrick Lee....coming off a season where he hit .270 with 27 HR and 98 RBI,

2B Luis Castrillo....coming off an All Star season where he hit .305 with 48 SB, 

3B Mike Lowell....coming off an All Star season where he hit .276 with 24 HR and 92 RBI

SS Alex Gonzalez....Former All Star ('99) who was still just 26 years old.

OF Todd Hollandsworth...coming off a season where he hit .284 with 16 HR and 67 RBI in just 430 AB.  

OF Juan Pierre....The previous 2 seasons he hit a combined .308 with 93 SB and 198 runs scored

OF Juan Encarnacion.....coming off a season where he hit .271 with 24 HR and 85 RBI

And his number one utility man off the bench was rookie Miguel Cabrera who would go on to become one of the greatest hitters of his era.  He drove in 62 runs in just 314 ABs.


McKeon was handed a loaded lineup full of All Star quality players.  They were that good before he arrived.

They were in LAST PLACE...Fired the manager in mid season and brought in McKeon.....and he took a team from last to first and World Series in same season.....IF they were so GREAT.....If Managing means nothing....Then why was this team in last early in season with other manager.......and giving Madden no credit for what he did in Tampa and Cubs is just nonsense....Price has been around last place since he got here, and I don't look for that to change. Even with good players Price was last place.  Under Price the Reds will have 50 losses by July 1st. The season will start bad as Cubs, Cardinals and Pirates win series after series over Reds. Reds are bringing back the same team only with even less talent by trading Bruce. This team will be below .500 almost wire to wire.

[fredtoast]

(12-23-2016, 05:28 AM)kevin Wrote: They were in LAST PLACE...Fired the manager in mid season and brought in McKeon.....and he took a team from last to first and World Series in same season.....IF they were so GREAT.....If Managing means nothing....Then why was this team in last early in season with other manager.......and giving Madden no credit for what he did in Tampa and Cubs is just nonsense....Price has been around last place since he got here, and I don't look for that to change. Even with good players Price was last place.  Under Price the Reds will have 50 losses by July 1st.  The season will start bad as Cubs, Cardinals and Pirates win series after series over Reds. Reds are bringing back the same team only with even less talent by trading Bruce. This team will be below .500 almost wire to wire.

You still don't get my point.

Good managers can turn around talented players that are underperforming.  Price does not have a lot of good players who are underperforming.  He just has a lot of bad players.  

McKeon did not turn a bunch of bums into champs.  He just got a lot of very good players to perform up to their level.  No way McKeon wins a championship with the roster the Reds had last year.

[grampahol]

Just wondering..The last player manager in MLB was Pete Rose and most of us know how that worked out. There is a perception Rose botched the job as manager, but it really was the gambling issues that was his undoing.
Not that I think it'll happen nor should it happen, but suppose that the Reds decided to go in the direction of a player manager is there any current Reds player who could handle the job? It's not rocket science to manage a ball club, but does require some understanding of pitching staffs and some other aspects I'm probably not thinking about right now, but it's far from impossible. The Reds seem to like touting out past players and teams to sell tickets in lieu of an actual competitive team so why not try yet another novel approach?