When did Marvin become the fallguy?

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 12:27 PM)Go Cards Wrote: If it were up to us management would have been replaced decades ago.

It is understood that MB are going nowhere and not firing family members that he is grooming to take over.

Plus a useless witch hunt for him may only provoke the team to be moved to a bigger more lucrative market.  

Guess basically we understand we are hemmed in with upper management. It is a sad reality.

Sometimes HC's take falls that are not necessarily there fault but a change in culture is needed to help right the ship.

Believe it is a little of both in this situation. But Marvin's long tenure without playoff win tilts scale.

I guess I'm a little sympathetic for Marvin. Is he a great coach? No...but I think that the fact that he succeeded here and turned around a perennial 4-12 franchise shows that he is above average to good.

If Lewis coached the Steelers instead of Tomlin...I'd fully expect him to have won a Super Bowl.

[Bengalboy]

(11-28-2016, 12:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I guess I'm a little sympathetic for Marvin. Is he a great coach? No...but I think that the fact that he succeeded here and turned around a perennial 4-12 franchise shows that he is above average to good.

If Lewis coached the Steelers instead of Tomlin...I'd fully expect him to have won a Super Bowl.

So by that logic there is no chance of a better coach being out there than Marvin Lewis for this team?

[*ochocincos*]

(11-27-2016, 11:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: But...it's on management to fire an underperforming HC.

You can point all the fingers at Marvin that you want...but the fact of the matter is that the same management team that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years didn't fire him.

Also...it's a rumor that Marvin is acting as the GM. I've never read anything concrete that he actually is. People assumed when we started making the playoffs that there was some structural change.

You're assuming Bengals management considers Marvin Lewis as an underperforming HC. As long as people keep buying the product, management could see everything as being "good enough".

[grampahol]

(11-28-2016, 12:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah - Unfortunately normal 'business' constraints don't apply to the NFL since there is revenue sharing. If the stadium sat empty he still gets a percentage of the pie. Said stadium was also largely paid for by the taxpayers.

So the - He owns the business and can do what he wants...doesn't apply.

And...to say an NFL owner doesn't care about his customers and then call him a good businessman... Good business people ALWAYS care about the customers.

Have you ever heard of an NFL owner losing money? It doesn't happen, because the salary cap is set at a percentage of total revenue. The owners are essentially guaranteed a profit.

The good owners, who want to win...manipulate the salary cap and invest a little more into their product so they can field a better team.

It is true that tax payers foot the bill for stadiums in most instances ,but that isn't the fault of the team . That part is on the electorate for voting clowns into office who are easily bought and paid for by the NFL and teams . But that also happens with plenty of other businesses as well . How many Wallyworlds have been allowed to push small shops out of business because they don't have to pay taxes on development of the property ? That scam has been going on all around the country . People are duped into it for the idea that it'll bring jobs jobs jobs and if the company decides to move out for any reason you're left with a nice shiny building with zero tenants. 

[Bengalholic]

(11-27-2016, 11:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Largely the same management structure is in place that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years.

The Bengals made the playoffs for 5 years in a row and fans assumed that some new mystery GM was calling the shots.

At some point, fans ire has fallen on Lewis and somehow the Bengals Management Team remains unscathed.

Thoughts?

When you say that management has gone unscathed, my question would be - who's going to hold management accountable? 

By 'management' you're basically saying the family - Mike, Katie, Troy, etc. Mike isn't firing himself or replacing the members of the inner circle, so they aren't going anywhere.

Fans have been complaining forever about Mike and the way things have been run in this organization. Mike is simply not phased by the criticism. He's addressed these things many times in the past, and most always responds with the same dismissive, bullheaded, and out of touch statements.

So, the only realistic change is with the HC, and in Marvin's case, a HC that's been here for a very long time and has plenty of blame on his own plate. I posted something yesterday from an article in 2014, where Mike states that Marvin and Katie are "running the show". If that's true -and I'd assume it's been the case since 2011 - then Marvin has basically been a part of 'management'.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 12:38 PM)Bengalboy Wrote: So by that logic there is no chance of a better coach being out there than Marvin Lewis for this team?

There are better coaches. Will a better coach come to this organization that essentially doesn't believe in signing external free agents to more than 1 year deals and that has a limited scouting staff?

My comment is indicative of the constraints that a coach will have to operate and succeed in. I don't know that there are too many that would come here and actually be able to succeed.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 12:56 PM)grampahol Wrote: It is true that tax payers foot the bill for stadiums in most instances ,but that isn't the fault of the team . That part is on the electorate for voting clowns into office who are easily bought and paid for by the NFL and teams . But that also happens with plenty of other businesses as well . How many Wallyworlds have been allowed to push small shops out of business because they don't have to pay taxes on development of the property ? That scam has been going on all around the country . People are duped into it for the idea that it'll bring jobs jobs jobs and if the company decides to move out for any reason you're left with a nice shiny building with zero tenants. 

Teams threaten to leave and do everything they can to hold a city hostage. The team isn't just some bystander in the process.

Teams are allowed to pay for part of their stadium and have the money to do so...they just use all the leverage and threats they can to not do it.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 01:49 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: When you say that management has gone unscathed, my question would be - who's going to hold management accountable? 

By 'management' you're basically saying the family - Mike, Katie, Troy, etc. Mike isn't firing himself or replacing the members of the inner circle, so they aren't going anywhere.

Fans have been complaining forever about Mike and the way things have been run in this organization. Mike is simply not phased by the criticism. He's addressed these things many times in the past, and most always responds with the same dismissive, bullheaded, and out of touch statements.

So, the only realistic change is with the HC, and in Marvin's case, a HC that's been here for a very long time and has plenty of blame on his own plate. I posted something yesterday from an article in 2014, where Mike states that Marvin and Katie are "running the show". If that's true -and I'd assume it's been the case since 2011 - then Marvin has basically been a part of 'management'.

They could hire a GM like most franchises.

[BengalsRocker]

(11-28-2016, 02:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They could hire a GM like most franchises.

You should have just put that in your initial thread post.

So what makes you think that Mike, Katie, Troy or whoever listen to said GM?

Mike Brown thinks he has all of the answers...  it's quite apparent.

Only just a few seasons ago he was giving Marvin and his coaches depth charts that he thinks up.

It's sad to say but only MB's death and the hope his family welcomes outside help/opinions is all we can look forward to.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-28-2016, 02:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They could hire a GM like most franchises.

The Bengals and Cowboys are the only teams without a GM. Jerry Jones has given control to his son, but Jones himself was a much better "GM" than Mike Brown.

We literally have easily the worst management system in place. We have to hope our HC and head of scouting can talk our inept owner into making sound decisions, with mixed-at-best results. What if our HC or lead scout need fired themselves? Then the management "system" has to be started over again, and these new guys won't have full say on who they hire.

That's why we have little hope of ever winning it all while MB is alive, and sustained success is difficult. I sympathize with Marv because I doubt he ever had full control. That said, we had enough talent to win playoff games (several times). That's why I think Marv earned his pink slip. I can see why some want Marv to be GM, but I seriously doubt that happens.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 03:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Bengals and Cowboys are the only teams without a GM. Jerry Jones has given control to his son, but Jones himself was a much better "GM" than Mike Brown.

We literally have easily the worst management system in place. We have to hope our HC and head of scouting can talk our inept owner into making sound decisions, with mixed-at-best results. What if our HC or lead scout need fired themselves? Then the management "system" has to be started over again, and these new guys won't have full say on who they hire.

That's why we have little hope of ever winning it all while MB is alive, and sustained success is difficult. I sympathize with Marv because I doubt he ever had full control. That said, we had enough talent to win playoff games (several times). That's why I think Marv earned his pink slip. I can see why some want Marv to be GM, but I seriously doubt that happens.

Agreed. We basically have to hit on an insane amount of draft picks year in and year out to compete and replenish talent that we lose in free agency.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-27-2016, 11:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Largely the same management structure is in place that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years.

The Bengals made the playoffs for 5 years in a row and fans assumed that some new mystery GM was calling the shots.

At some point, fans ire has fallen on Lewis and somehow the Bengals Management Team remains unscathed.

Thoughts?

When we spent our first two picks in 2015 on two tackles that can't play.  One is so bad that he apparently can't replace the worst RT in football.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-28-2016, 02:38 AM)Trademark Wrote: I think Marvin should be in a GM role here he's done what he could as a coach

Pass, the Bengals haven't drafted well in a couple years now. They let their good players go, and re-sign their bad ones.

Marvin needs to go 100%, not to GM, not to advisor, but gone. Along with all the other coaches on this team. Scorched earth, clean house.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-28-2016, 03:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Bengals and Cowboys are the only teams without a GM. Jerry Jones has given control to his son, but Jones himself was a much better "GM" than Mike Brown.

We literally have easily the worst management system in place. We have to hope our HC and head of scouting can talk our inept owner into making sound decisions, with mixed-at-best results. What if our HC or lead scout need fired themselves? Then the management "system" has to be started over again, and these new guys won't have full say on who they hire.

That's why we have little hope of ever winning it all while MB is alive, and sustained success is difficult. I sympathize with Marv because I doubt he ever had full control. That said, we had enough talent to win playoff games (several times). That's why I think Marv earned his pink slip. I can see why some want Marv to be GM, but I seriously doubt that happens.

So, what your saying is.....Piano Man the cockroach will survive another rebuild.....swell.

[Benton]

(11-28-2016, 02:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There are better coaches. Will a better coach come to this organization that essentially doesn't believe in signing external free agents to more than 1 year deals and that has a limited scouting staff?
 
 

Definitely.

As has been said other times in other discussions, there's 32 NFL head coaching positions. That's it. There's more coordinator positions, but you're still talking, what, under 100 HCs, OCs and DCs total? Not a lot of openings, but thousands of guys who would like to be there.

Do some constraints or situations scare off potential former coaches? Sure, but you're talking about a short list of guys who come up in every conversation ... and never come out of retirement. Mike Brown isn't going to scare Cowher off of un-retiring. The fear of losing his legacy is. Guys like that know there's a lot of luck and timing involved in winning a championships. And there's a lot of work involved being in position to be ready when that time is right.

There's good coaches out there. We've done a good job of bringing in good coaches (some who are currently serving as good coaches at the helms of other teams), why night bring in a better HC?

[OrlandoBengal]

(11-28-2016, 12:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Many times when you have management teams that have been together for years, you get 'groupthink' where everyone starts to think similar and outsiders with differing views aren't brought in.

It's probably no coincidence that guys like Lewis, Alexander, and Zampese have been here for years. They're not viewed as a threat to the current management structure.

Especially when the front office is littered with members of the Brown family, most of whom never work anywhere else.  It reminds me of a mortgage company I used to do business with.  The current owner started dating the founder's daughter in college and went to work there right after graduating.  After 15 years, the father in law wanted to retire and sold it to his son in law (the daughter never worked). The son in law has actually gotten rid of many of the original management structure and replaced them with his own team.  The guy has never worked anywhere else in his life, does not have any outside experience, and literally does not know what he does not know.  Any of the people who had outside experience, and differing opinions, are now gone and the company is faltering.  In a record breaking mortgage year, they are on pace to do almost a billion less than last year.

You need people who will tell you "no", people who have outside experiences and know other ways of doing things.