Burkhead

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-06-2016, 06:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm looking over this post and I don't see any explanation for why Gio is averaging 3.7 ypc (to Hill's 4.0) this year. Sure Gio is better at catching and blocking (although I think Hill is solid in these categories), but we're talking about toting the rock.

Hill ain't getting it done, but neither was Gio, who was stuffed on a regular all year. People keep talking like Gio somehow looked better but the production hasn't reflected that at all. I'm not hating on Gio so much as using him to make a point. I just think the problem is (and has been for years) the oline. 

4 OC's, 3 RB coaches, a mountain of RBs, and we get the same mediocre results year after year. To me it's like blaming players for stinking in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis.

Hill IS solid at catching, and we had to wait for Gio to be injured to learn that...

Which is my point in all of this.  The self-scouting that apparently isn't done whatsoever.  When Hill was in the game with an extra blocker, stack the line.  When Hill was in the game without an extra blocker, run-blitz...either you get Hill protecting Dalton or you get the run stuffed.  When Gio was in the game, the opposing defenses largely only had to worry about swing passes to Gio.  

The bottom line is predictability.  From formations and personnel, you knew what was coming...every damn time.  When you are facing that kind of opponent, you need PERFECT execution and they are far from that.  

My point?  More passes out of the extra TE formation.  More passes to Hill out of the backfield on first down.  And I still for the life of me can't understand why we don't have more two and three TE formations in the red zone and short yardage.  Kroft has had zero opportunity to develop as a pass catcher.  Uzomah showed promise, but has not had many chances since.  

It is all about not being so damn predictable.  

[NATI BENGALS]

(12-07-2016, 11:12 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Hill IS solid at catching, and we had to wait for Gio to be injured to learn that...

Which is my point in all of this.  The self-scouting that apparently isn't done whatsoever.  When Hill was in the game with an extra blocker, stack the line.  When Hill was in the game without an extra blocker, run-blitz...either you get Hill protecting Dalton or you get the run stuffed.  When Gio was in the game, the opposing defenses largely only had to worry about swing passes to Gio.  

The bottom line is predictability.  From formations and personnel, you knew what was coming...every damn time.  When you are facing that kind of opponent, you need PERFECT execution and they are far from that.  

My point?  More passes out of the extra TE formation.  More passes to Hill out of the backfield on first down.  And I still for the life of me can't understand why we don't have more two and three TE formations in the red zone and short yardage.  Kroft has had zero opportunity to develop as a pass catcher.  Uzomah showed promise, but has not had many chances since.  

It is all about not being so damn predictable.  

 
Nailed it. Hill can catch. He had nine catches this year before Gio got hurt and has 8 over the last 2 games. So he isn't a one dimensional back. Our coaches made him one dimensional. 

Same coaches who have kept Burkhead on the bench for 3.5 years. Turns out he can contribute. But our coaches didn't recognize the talent. 

But by God our whole season depended on Peerman. Luckily we got him going instead of wasting time working with our first round pick. 

[Shake n Blake]

(12-07-2016, 11:12 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Hill IS solid at catching, and we had to wait for Gio to be injured to learn that...

Which is my point in all of this.  The self-scouting that apparently isn't done whatsoever.  When Hill was in the game with an extra blocker, stack the line.  When Hill was in the game without an extra blocker, run-blitz...either you get Hill protecting Dalton or you get the run stuffed.  When Gio was in the game, the opposing defenses largely only had to worry about swing passes to Gio.  

The bottom line is predictability.  From formations and personnel, you knew what was coming...every damn time.  When you are facing that kind of opponent, you need PERFECT execution and they are far from that.  

My point?  More passes out of the extra TE formation.  More passes to Hill out of the backfield on first down.  And I still for the life of me can't understand why we don't have more two and three TE formations in the red zone and short yardage.  Kroft has had zero opportunity to develop as a pass catcher.  Uzomah showed promise, but has not had many chances since.  

It is all about not being so damn predictable.  

Truth. We have so many versatile players, yet they always seem to get pegged into specific roles. If Hill is in, it's most likely a run. Gio is used in some of the most unimaginative screens. I was watching the Giants vs Steelers and the Giants threw a screen to Rashad Jennings that fooled everyone, including me. It took me a second to see where the ball actually went, then Jennings had 2 blockers ahead of him. I see those kind of plays almost every time I watch a non-Bengals game, but creative plays seem few and far between for our guys. 

Like how often do we see a Bengals receiver WIDE open because the defense got fooled? 

[Derrick]

(12-06-2016, 06:13 PM)Stormborn Wrote: nah

i know some people hate to exclude obvious outliers, but what has hill done this year outside of 9 runs against the league's second worst run defense? watch him run man, he can't create anything on his own.

it's undeniable that the amount of push the line gets is abysmal and it has effected gio and jeremy, but gio is the obvious better runner of the ball, and everything that makes a running back a running back.

the only thing hill does well is run through gaping holes with no second gear and look big.

What did they see in Hill to draft him? Was he their version of EzeZeke?  WOW!

[Derrick]

(12-06-2016, 08:32 PM)Shepdawg Wrote: I have no problem with giving Burkhead more touches.  I think the offense can do a lot of the same things with Burkhead that they do with Gio.  My biggest issue with Hill isn't so much as his overall results.  In my opinion it's his running style that I find most frustrating.  He's 6'1 and 235-240 pounds and runs more like he's 5'9 190 pounds.  For someone his size, he does have quick feet, and thus will from time to time break one.  This raises his average YPC.   But he tries to be a shifty RB like Gio.  IMO Gio actually runs more like a big back than Hill does.

I wish Hill ran more like Earl Campbell or Corey Dillon and just ran over folks early and often, even if he thinks he can make them miss.  Break their will and desire to want to try to tackle him later in the game.  It appears for example a 6'0 195 pound defensive back is just as aggressive going after Hill in the 3rd and 4th quarters as he is in the 1st because he knows he can be the aggressor.  Hill will likely try to shake him, not try to truck him.  One of the reasons teams have a bigger back is to wear those guys down physically over the course of the game.  Have them making "matador" type tackles later in the game.  I don't think the Bengals are getting that from Hill, regardless if he does break a few runs here and there.  I think he would actually break more of those longer runs by running over a few more people a little more often.

If anyone has the Eagles game on video, watch the play right before Hill's TD.  It starts to the left and is defended well.  There is no hole. Hill cuts it back to the right and has a straight line to the end zone.  One guy there to beat.  Either the OLB or a DB. Hill tried to juke back inside and gets tackled.  I would have loved to see Hill lower his shoulder and attack the defender.  REGARDLESS of if he scored or not.

Yes! YES! and YES! The RB coach needs to "explain" how a big back is supposed to run over defenders, not around them!!!

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-08-2016, 01:50 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Truth. We have so many versatile players, yet they always seem to get pegged into specific roles. If Hill is in, it's most likely a run. Gio is used in some of the most unimaginative screens. I was watching the Giants vs Steelers and the Giants threw a screen to Rashad Jennings that fooled everyone, including me. It took me a second to see where the ball actually went, then Jennings had 2 blockers ahead of him. I see those kind of plays almost every time I watch a non-Bengals game, but creative plays seem few and far between for our guys. 

Like how often do we see a Bengals receiver WIDE open because the defense got fooled? 

Ironically, the last one I think I saw was Eric Fisher...and that was because they threw the ball out of the extra TE formation!  Exactly what I am talking about.  That, and I would still like to see more of my favorite play...the TE screen.  But, run it to Kroft, or Uzomah, with Eifert split out wide the complete opposite end of the field.  Eifert is the only one that draws extra coverage not named AJ.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-06-2016, 06:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I guess I just look at our history with RBs and running the football over the last 10 years, and it makes me less inclined to blame the RBs. People blamed Law Firm, CedBen, Scott, Perry, etc and now they want to blame Hill (and maybe Gio).  Outside of 2014, we've ranked 20th or worse in YPC every year since 2006. Real success has been few and far between. So instead of looking at a laundry list of RBs, I wonder if it's the blocking/scheme.

I guess it's possible that all those RBs just sucked, but I definitely question the blocking as well. 

Yeah, the blocking scheme definately has tons to do with it. Probably more than anything.

I still believe both Gio and Hill are more talented than all of those RB's as well.

Maybe even Burkhead might be more talented than all of those RB's. In the end the blocking is the end all here.

Need a new O-line coach, a solid Center and a solid OT for the future. I blame PA more than anyone.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-07-2016, 11:12 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Hill IS solid at catching, and we had to wait for Gio to be injured to learn that...

Which is my point in all of this.  The self-scouting that apparently isn't done whatsoever.  When Hill was in the game with an extra blocker, stack the line.  When Hill was in the game without an extra blocker, run-blitz...either you get Hill protecting Dalton or you get the run stuffed.  When Gio was in the game, the opposing defenses largely only had to worry about swing passes to Gio.  

The bottom line is predictability.  From formations and personnel, you knew what was coming...every damn time.  When you are facing that kind of opponent, you need PERFECT execution and they are far from that.  

My point?  More passes out of the extra TE formation.  More passes to Hill out of the backfield on first down.  And I still for the life of me can't understand why we don't have more two and three TE formations in the red zone and short yardage.  Kroft has had zero opportunity to develop as a pass catcher.  Uzomah showed promise, but has not had many chances since.  

It is all about not being so damn predictable.  

We are a very predictable Offense and we don't play to the strengths of our players often.

We need a lot of new personnel from the HC on down.

Even with our predictable Offense we are still okay with Dalton and company.

Imagine if we were somewhat unpredictable!!!

[eoxyod]

Hill is still bad at receiving. Yes, he can catch. He can't make anything happen after the catch though. He doesn't set up blocks as well on screens and he doesn't do the extra work in YAC that Gio or Rex can

[3wt]

(12-08-2016, 03:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, the blocking scheme definately has tons to do with it. Probably more than anything.

I still believe both Gio and Hill are more talented than all of those RB's as well.

Maybe even Burkhead might be more talented than all of those RB's. In the end the blocking is the end all here.

Need a new O-line coach, a solid Center and a solid OT for the future. I blame PA more than anyone.

I know everyone is crying "fresh legs" regarding Burkhead.  But he was running the ball, receiving  and playing special teams.  And he had the same blocking as Hill and averaged just under 5 yards a carry while Hill averaged just under 2.   And I'll grant you that Hill may be playing hurt.  But his injury is an upper body injury not his legs.

If I'm the Bengals I'm giving Burkhead a lot of snaps the rest of the season.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-08-2016, 03:44 PM)eoxyod Wrote: Hill is still bad at receiving. Yes, he can catch. He can't make anything happen after the catch though. He doesn't set up blocks as well on screens and he doesn't do the extra work in YAC that Gio or Rex can

True that Eox.

(12-08-2016, 04:00 PM)3wt Wrote: I know everyone is crying "fresh legs" regarding Burkhead.  But he was running the ball, receiving  and playing special teams.  And he had the same blocking as Hill and averaged just under 5 yards a carry while Hill averaged just under 2.   And I'll grant you that Hill may be playing hurt.  But his injury is an upper body injury not his legs.

If I'm the Bengals I'm giving Burkhead a lot of snaps the rest of the season.

Man, spot on. People like Fred can say fans only like him cause he is white (which is BS BTW) but
Burkhead has just outplayed Hill the last few weeks. I sure hope they stick with the hotter hand but
knowing these coaches, who frickin knows.

[fredtoast]

(12-08-2016, 04:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Man, spot on. People like Fred can say fans only like him cause he is white (which is BS BTW) but
Burkhead has just outplayed Hill the last few weeks. I sure hope they stick with the hotter hand but
knowing these coaches, who frickin knows.

I give Rex credit for looking decent Sunday, but you know how many people around here had goo-goo eyes for Burkhead's awesome, playmaking 2.4 yards per carry coming into this season.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-08-2016, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I give Rex credit for looking decent Sunday, but you know how many people around here had goo-goo eyes for Burkhead's awesome, playmaking 2.4 yards per carry coming into this season.

Not me, i liked him in college but i thought he was a disappointment besides on ST's and at Slot WR before the
last two games. He looks good out there as a RB right now and better than Jeremy Hill. Give him lots of snaps
until Hill outplays him.

[Bengalholic]

(12-08-2016, 03:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, the blocking scheme definately has tons to do with it. Probably more than anything.

I still believe both Gio and Hill are more talented than all of those RB's as well.

Maybe even Burkhead might be more talented than all of those RB's. In the end the blocking is the end all here.

Need a new O-line coach, a solid Center and a solid OT for the future. I blame PA more than anyone.

When you look at Jeremy, he's definitely creating many of his own problems in terms of dancing around and hesitating too much. He's a big back with some quickness. He needs to be running north and south, between the tackles, with authority. Unfortunately that's not happening and hasn't for awhile. His vision doesn't seem nearly as good as it was in his rookie season. 

Having said that, the O-line isn't doing him any favors either. How many times have we seen Jeremy take the handoff with a defender already in the backfield, or trying to wait for a lane that never develops because the O-line is getting beaten at the point of attack?

Jeremy deserves his share of the blame, but the O-line has certainly left a lot to be desired in the run game. Gio has faced similar issues throughout his career as well. While Jeremy has averaged 3.7 ypc or less in 50% of his games, Gio isn't a whole lot better at 44%. It's not just one guy who has struggled to find consistency, which would suggest the O-line has been, and still is, a big part of the problem with the running game.

As for Burkhead, I think he's a good player as long as his role is limited. If he were to get 12-18 carries per game on a regular basis, I think it would become very apparent, very quickly, why he's better suited for a backup/situational type role. Just my opinion though.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-08-2016, 05:32 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: When you look at Jeremy, he's definitely creating many of his own problems in terms of dancing around and hesitating too much. He's a big back with some quickness. He needs to be running north and south, between the tackles, with authority. Unfortunately that's not happening and hasn't for awhile. His vision doesn't seem nearly as good as it was in his rookie season. 

Having said that, the O-line isn't doing him any favors either. How many times have we seen Jeremy take the handoff with a defender already in the backfield, or trying to wait for a lane that never develops because the O-line is getting beaten at the point of attack?

Jeremy deserves his share of the blame, but the O-line has certainly left a lot to be desired in the run game. Gio has faced similar issues throughout his career as well. While Jeremy has averaged 3.7 ypc or less in 50% of his games, Gio isn't much better at 44%. It's not just one guy who has struggled to find consistency, which would suggest the O-line has been, and still is, a big part of the problem with the running game.

As for Burkhead, I think he's a good player as long as his role is limited. If he were to get 12-18 carries per game on a regular basis, I think it would become very apparent, very quickly, why he's better suited for a backup/situational type role. Just my opinion though.

Great points Holic. Hard to argue with any of this. Hill i think is trying to be something that he is not, a scat back.

Like you said, he needs to be running North and using his size to his advantage. Shit, Gio lowers his shoulder more often
than Hill does. He needs to get back that physical mentality he had in college and in his rookie year. Quit trying to make
people miss and just plow them over, he can do this, Hill has done it before.

Spot on about the O-line. We have been able to run it before when we had the mentality to do so. Whitworth has said it
himself many times, it is a mentality.

I just think that PA does not help in this aspect. Need a new O-line coach.

Marv is coming back, fine just get a new O-line coach to develop players at our weakest links. We can get this team back
on track, seems the Defense is getting there finally.

Could be right about Burkhead, don't know for sure until you give him the snaps though.

[Bengalholic]

(12-08-2016, 05:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great points Holic. Hard to argue with any of this. Hill i think is trying to be something that he is not, a scat back.

Like you said, he needs to be running North and using his size to his advantage. Shit, Gio lowers his shoulder more often
than Hill does. He needs to get back that physical mentality he had in college and in his rookie year. Quit trying to make
people miss and just plow them over, he can do this, Hill has done it before.

Spot on about the O-line. We have been able to run it before when we had the mentality to do so. Whitworth has said it
himself many times, it is a mentality.

I just think that PA does not help in this aspect. Need a new O-line coach.

Marv is coming back, fine just get a new O-line coach to develop players at our weakest links. We can get this team back
on track, seems the Defense is getting there finally.

Could be right about Burkhead, don't know for sure until you give him the snaps though.

BTW, I'm all for giving Rex an increased workload and seeing what he can do. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.  :andy:

[*wildcats forever*]

(12-08-2016, 05:51 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: BTW, I'm all for giving Rex an increased workload and seeing what he can do. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.  :andy:

Until we get better Oline play, I'm not sure it's fair to judge Rex or Hill or any RB. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-08-2016, 11:01 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: Until we get better Oline play, I'm not sure it's fair to judge Rex or Hill or any RB. 

Unless it is Barry Sanders or Dalvin Cook.

[snowy]

Shake n Blake Wrote:Truth. We have so many versatile players, yet they always seem to get pegged into specific roles.

Yep. The Bengals used to value versatility, and stacked the team with versatile players who they actually used. In games! That ain't happening much this season, and the Bengals are reaping the results. They're getting exactly what they deserve.

[3wt]

(12-08-2016, 05:51 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: BTW, I'm all for giving Rex an increased workload and seeing what he can do. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.  :andy:

With you on this.  We didn't know how good was Rudi till Corey was gone... and Hill is no Dillon.